God's Word Verbatim

[JonC]

We had been discussing "what is written" ("every word that comes forth from God) in Scripture versus the various beliefs people say is taught by the Bible.

@Brightfame52 made a complaint that I at first dismissed, but should not have.

I posted what I believed and passages that stated (verbatim) my belief. Now, interpretations can vary, but the actual words were in tge biblical text.

I asked @Brightfame52 to provide the biblical text stating his belief. Initially he provided a verse abs thrn proceeded ti say what the verse "really" teaches. When I pointed out that his beluef was completely foreign to the actual text he offered the complaint.

He complained that what I was asking for was God's words, it was what God had actually said verbatim.

He is correct. And that is why I will never accept his belief.

We have God's Word, the words coming from God, "what is written".


IF God's words makes sence, if Scripture is complete, if it is perfect, then why do we need men to tell us what the Bible really means?

How can what any sect of "Christians" tell us the Bible teaches be superior to God's own words?

A teacher (a biblicsl teacher) teaches Gid's words, teaches and applies to the lives of church members "what is written", teaches "every word that comes from God". An unbiblical teacher teaches what he or she believes is taught by the Bible.

 

[atpollard]

Respectfully, I find that more often than not, God is “clear as mud”.
I would point to John 3 as “exhibit 1” and ask you to note that even the great teacher Nicodemus struggled to understand the simple, direct, literal “verbatim” words Jesus spoke to him.

Now excuse me, I need to go and hate my family before gouging out my eye.

 

[KenH]

IF God's words makes sence, if Scripture is complete, if it is perfect, then why do we need men to tell us what the Bible really means?

Acts 8:30-33
And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said,
Understandest thou what thou readest?
And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me?
And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.
The place of the scripture which he read was this,
He was led as a sheep to the slaughter;
And like a lamb dumb before his shearer,
So opened he not his mouth:
In his humiliation his judgment was taken away:
And who shall declare his generation?
For his life is taken from the earth.

2 Timothy 2:2
And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.

1 Timothy 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach.

Romans 10:13-15
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written,
How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

(emphasis mine)

 

[JonC]

Acts 8:30-33
And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said,
Understandest thou what thou readest?
And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me?
And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.
The place of the scripture which he read was this,
He was led as a sheep to the slaughter;
And like a lamb dumb before his shearer,
So opened he not his mouth:
In his humiliation his judgment was taken away:
And who shall declare his generation?
For his life is taken from the earth.

2 Timothy 2:2
And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.

1 Timothy 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach.

Romans 10:13-15
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written,
How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

(emphasis mine)

EXACTLY!!!!!!!

Biblical teachers were never men who tell people what they thi k Bible "really means". They are men who teach "what is written" and apply God's Word to the lives of men. Phillip's evangelism is a good examole. He went through Scripture explaining how the OT was fulfilled in Christ. And Jesus taught this to His Disciples on the road to Emmaus. Paul does this in his epistles.

But our faith is a narrow way. Men will gravitate to the teachings of men - what various men tell them the Bible teaches.

Christians, however, lean not on their understanding but on every word from God, on "what is written".

The teacher shoukd teach God's Word and not stray from "what is written".

 

[Zaatar71]

EXACTLY!!!!!!!

That is exactly what you have posted for weeks that we should not do.

Biblical teachers were never men who tell people what they thi k Bible "really means".

That is exactly what Philip did! The Eunuch was already reading, so Philip did not just read to him as you have been saying many times. You have said What? Is God not able to express what he wants in "what is Written"? here the statement is made, How can I except some man help me. Do not make as if you have agreed with this. You rejected John Murray, and Al Martin just a few days ago, and looked to find flaws, rather than admitting they have been used by God as gifts to the church.

They are men who teach "what is written" and apply God's Word to the lives of men.

You have not been posting this anywhere...you are shifting to make it as if you said this, but you have not.

Phillip's evangelism is a good examole. He went through Scripture explaining how the OT was fulfilled in Christ.

Oh, so Philip a man explained! is not what you have been saying for weeks now. We all read what you said.

And Jesus taught this to His Disciples on the road to Emmaus. Paul does this in his epistles.

Why did they teach anything? Why did they not follow you and say...I go with only what is written , as if you understand everything.

But our faith is a narrow way. Men will gravitate to the teachings of men - what various men tell them the Bible teaches.

This is an example of double speak. You deny for several weeks, then you make as if this is what you have been teaching, and now you try and speak of the very thing you are forced to admit took place, and still takes place.

Christians, however, lean not on their understanding but on every word from God, on "what is written".

You lean solely on your own understanding. You have posted this for weeks.

The teacher shoukd teach God's Word and not stray from "what is written".

Godly teachers have been doing this from the beginning.

 

[KenH]

Men will gravitate to the teachings of men - what various men tell them the Bible teaches.

Yes, they do gravitate to the teachings of men.

The natural man cannot understand spiritual things. (1 Corinthians 2:14)

The natural man gravitates towards the commandments and doctrines of men. (Matthew 15:9, Colossians 2:22)

Thus, we see the natural man does not believe the Biblical teaching that God is sovereign as the Creator (Proverbs 16:33, Isaiah 45:9, Romans 9:20-21) and that man is powerless as the creature, and that God can do what He desires and ordains with His creation. The natural man falsely believes in varying degrees of Deism - that, at most, God is sometimes sovereign here, or sometimes sovereign there, but never 100% sovereign; or maybe that God just created the universe, "wound it up" and just stepped back and will come back at some later date to see what happened.

Thus, we see the natural man believes false teachings such as that Christ did not finish the work of salvation of God's elect, but that man has to "finish the job" by supplying his own faith or his own works of various kinds, as the natural man does not believe Christ Jesus when He said, "It is finished." (John 19:30), and such as that man, once regenerated, has to keep himself saved, whereas the Bible teaches that it is God who preserves His elect (Jude 1:24-25).

So, when you say, "Men will gravitate to the teachings of men", you are quite correct.

 

[Zaatar71]

Yes, they do gravitate to the teachings of men.

The natural man cannot understand spiritual things. (1 Corinthians 2:14)

The natural man gravitates towards the commandments and doctrines of men. (Matthew 15:9, Colossians 2:22)

Thus, we see the natural does not believe the Biblical teaching that God is sovereign as the Creator (Proverbs 16:33, Isaiah 45:9, Romans 9:20-21) and that man is powerless as the creature, and that God can do what He desires and ordains with His creation. The natural man falsely believes in varying degrees of Deism - that, at most, God is sometimes sovereign here, or sometimes sovereign there, but never 100% sovereign; or maybe that God just created the universe, "wound it up" and just stepped back and will come back at some later date to see what happened.

Thus, we see the natural man believes false teachings such as that Christ did not finish the work of salvation of God's elect, but that man has to "finish the job" by supplying his own faith or his own works of various kinds, as the natural man does not believe Christ Jesus when He said, "It is finished." (John 19:30), and such as that man, once regenerated, has to keep himself saved, whereas the Bible teaches that it is God who preserves His elect (Jude 1:24-25).

So, when you say, "Men will gravitate to the teachings of men", you are quite correct.

Yes Ken, you are posting exactly what the scripture says on these truths. Sheep seek out teachers who help prepare sheep food. goats feed on other things, that is why they are goats. Inability to welcome Divine truth is a sign of goats.

 

[JonC]

Yes, they do gravitate to the teachings of men.

The natural man cannot understand spiritual things. (1 Corinthians 2:14)

The natural man gravitates towards the commandments and doctrines of men. (Matthew 15:9, Colossians 2:22)

Thus, we see the natural man does not believe the Biblical teaching that God is sovereign as the Creator (Proverbs 16:33, Isaiah 45:9, Romans 9:20-21) and that man is powerless as the creature, and that God can do what He desires and ordains with His creation. The natural man falsely believes in varying degrees of Deism - that, at most, God is sometimes sovereign here, or sometimes sovereign there, but never 100% sovereign; or maybe that God just created the universe, "wound it up" and just stepped back and will come back at some later date to see what happened.

Thus, we see the natural man believes false teachings such as that Christ did not finish the work of salvation of God's elect, but that man has to "finish the job" by supplying his own faith or his own works of various kinds, as the natural man does not believe Christ Jesus when He said, "It is finished." (John 19:30), and such as that man, once regenerated, has to keep himself saved, whereas the Bible teaches that it is God who preserves His elect (Jude 1:24-25).

So, when you say, "Men will gravitate to the teachings of men", you are quite correct.

Partly.

Men do gravitate towards men being in control. Many will, and have, denied that nobody comes to Christ unless God draws them. But interpretations can still vary as we see as through a glass, dimly. We are not yet perfected but are being made in the likeness of Christ, refined. So those who believe that Christ, lifted up, draws all men are no less biblical than those who insist Christ died for His sheep.

The crux is not whether interpretations align (as Christ will make them stand) but whether we are talking about actual interpretations of the words coming from God or philosophies men developed about what the Bible teaches.

As far as the finished work of Christ, if you mean Christ's work then it is finished. We can find this in the Bible.

But some have developed a "Christian" philosophy that with Christ's death their sins were (in the past) forgiven. They do not believe in God's words about forgiveness, about how men are forgiven, about God not punishing the sins of the guilty on the innocent, about Christ as a Mediator in the present, about...well....most of what God has actually said.

Instead they believe what men have told them the Bible teaches. They hold on to a neo-Christianity unheard of throughout most of Christian history. Professing themselves wise they have become fools, in danger of being carried away from the faith altogether and hearing "I never knew you".

Men tend to gravitate towards "easy-believism". This is the only reason Reformed Theology exists today.

Think about it. Reformed Theology dies not base redemotion on Christ's death or resurrection. It certainly does not necessitate the cross, or that Christ's physical death. It holds that it is impossible for God to forgive sins, and redefines "forgiveness" as the guilty escaping punishment.

Are Calvinists saved? No. But Christians who are also Calvinists are saved (I was one). The danger is when Calvinism (their understanding, man's throry about what the Bible "teaches" as opposed to God's actual words) replaces the Christian faith. Then they may be beyond redemotion, having trusted not every word coming from God but their own understanding. They commit the sin of Adam. Seeking wisdom they prove thenselves fools and believing they are saved they will hear "I never knew you".


This is why we are commanded not to trust our understanding but every word from God why we are commanded to test doctrine against "what is written", why God's actual words matter. It is why we should avoid these philosophies all together (whether Calvinism, Arminianism, SDA Theology, JW Theology, Mormonism, mysticism, et ). There is a danger of being carried away.

 

[KenH]

those who insist Christ died for His sheep.

I believe Christ Jesus when He said, "I lay down my life for the sheep." (John 10:15)

Many will, and have, denied that nobody comes to Christ unless God draws them.

I believe Christ Jesus when He said, "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him." (John 6:44)

about God not punishing the sins of the guilty on the innocent

I believe God when He had the apostle Paul write, "For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." (2 Corinthians 5:21)

 

[JonC]

I believe Christ Jesus when He said, "I lay down my life for the sheep." (John 10:15)



I believe Christ Jesus when He said, "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him." (John 6:44)



I believe God when He had the apostle Paul write, "For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." (2 Corinthians 5:21)

I also agree with those facts. That is not what I was talking about.

I am sure we agree on a lot of Scripture.

We agree that God forgiven men based on repentance.
We believe that God will not punish the sins of the guilty on the innocent.
We believe that Christ, lifted up, will draw all men unto Himself
We believe that sins cannot be transferred from the one who committed the sin.

So there is a lot that we can agree on.

I was talking about things that are not in the Bible, but that a small sect of men believe the Bible teaches - like Jesus experiencing God's wrath.

With God's Word it is all or none, and it is His words or man's understanding.

People need to get off the fence. They need to choose their "ism" or God. They cannot have both.


Do you think that we should believe in God's Word ("what is written") or do you prefer believing in what men understand the Bible to teach?