Good In Bad People?

[37818]

Here's my scripture from which I see myself as having been adopted from before the foundation of the world, yet my adoption is completed in time as I experience it.

Ephesians 1:3-6
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.

Romans 8:15,23-24,29-30

For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!”

And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees?

For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Romans 8:23, ". . . waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body." Also 1 John 3:2.

 

[AustinC]

Romans 8:23, ". . . waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body." Also 1 John 3:2.

Read all the verses so you get the qualification around the one phrase onto which you are clinging. Remember that the whole of scripture interprets one phrase.

 

[37818]

Read all the verses so you get the qualification around the one phrase onto which you are clinging. Remember that the whole of scripture interprets one phrase.

Yet we are coming to a different understanding regarding the adoption. This Greek term is only used by the Apostle Paul.

 

[AustinC]

Yet we are coming to a different understanding regarding the adoption. This Greek term is only used by the Apostle Paul.

Was Paul not inspired by God?
Hebrews and Peter tells us we have been given an inheritance as children of God. This idea of adoption is not just from Paul.

 

[37818]

Was Paul not inspired by God?
Hebrews and Peter tells us we have been given an inheritance as children of God. This idea of adoption is not just from Paul.

That term is only used by Paul. It refers to the bodily resurrection of the believers. Romans 8:23.

 

[AustinC]

That term is only used by Paul. It refers to the bodily resurrection of the believers. Romans 8:23.

You apparently have zero interest in reading vs 15.

Romans 8:15,23-24,29-30

For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!”

And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees?

For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

You also ignore Ephesians 1 as well as Hebrews 9 and 1 Peter 1 and 2. But kudos to you for mishandling Romans 8:23 because you want it to mean something else.

 

[37818]

You apparently have zero interest in reading vs 15.

Does not negate verse 23 which defines what the adoption refers to.
Roman 8:15, ". . . For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. . . ." First reference.
Romans 8:23 the defining second reference.
Romans 9:4, to whom the promise pertaines. Third reference.
Galatians 4:5 gives the reason. The fourth reference.
Ephesians 1:5, ". . . Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, . . ." Romans 8:29, ". . . For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, . . ." 1 John 3:2, ". . . now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; . . . "

 

[SavedByGrace]

Romans 8:23, ". . . waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body." Also 1 John 3:2.

are you saying, that born again believers, who are already "saved", have not been "adpoted" into the Family of God, and become His children?

 

[Reformed1689]

I do not see any indication from the text of Scripture that we are adopted BEFORE our conversion. Chosen to be adopted, yes, but not already adopted.

 

[SavedByGrace]

I do not see any indication from the text of Scripture that we are adopted BEFORE our conversion. Chosen to be adopted, yes, but not already adopted.

so being CHOSEN in Him before the foundation of the world, is not real, but probable?

 

[Reformed1689]

so being CHOSEN in Him before the foundation of the world, is not real, but probable?

How do you get that from what I said?

 

[SavedByGrace]

How do you get that from what I said?

if some have been "elected" already for salvation, then they are as much as already saved, as the "elect" cannot be lost. Therefore, these are also "adopted" before the foundation of the world, as "election" is the same as "adoption"

Can you get this?

 

[AustinC]

Does not negate verse 23 which defines what the adoption refers to.
Roman 8:15, ". . . For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. . . ." First reference.
Romans 8:23 the defining second reference.
Romans 9:4, to whom the promise pertaines. Third reference.
Galatians 4:5 gives the reason. The fourth reference.
Ephesians 1:5, ". . . Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, . . ." Romans 8:29, ". . . For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, . . ." 1 John 3:2, ". . . now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; . . . "

All these verses, yet no reference to " bodily resurrection" as the adoption.

I will use human adoption as an example. The adoption process takes place, legally, far before the actual picking up of the child to bring the child home. When, therefore, is the child adopted? Is it at the point s/he is snatched up in their parents arms or is it far before that time when the papers are signed?

Here is where the covenant comes into play.
When Jesus died, Christ's will was read and every adopted child received there inheritance (Hebrews 9:15-17). We see this same thing in 1 Peter 1:3-5 where we have received an inheritance, yet we wait for it.

Our adoption has already taken place, yet the entire fulfillment, from our perspective, has not yet taken place. Therefore, we live by faith and we endure the fiery trials as aliens in a foreign land.

 

[Reformed1689]

if some have been "elected" already for salvation, then they are as much as already saved, as the "elect" cannot be lost. Therefore, these are also "adopted" before the foundation of the world, as "election" is the same as "adoption"

Can you get this?

Except that is not what I believe, nor do I think that is what the Bible teaches. I believe we are chosen in Christ to be adopted as sons. John 1 clearly states that we will become, not already are, sons of God. It's not sealed in the past. We have been given the right to have it happen.

Now, do I believe all of the elect will be adopted before they leave this world? Absolutely. But do I believe that they are already adopted when they are born? No I do not.

 

[AustinC]

Except that is not what I believe, nor do I think that is what the Bible teaches. I believe we are chosen in Christ to be adopted as sons. John 1 clearly states that we will become, not already are, sons of God. It's not sealed in the past. We have been given the right to have it happen.

Now, do I believe all of the elect will be adopted before they leave this world? Absolutely. But do I believe that they are already adopted when they are born? No I do not.

Here you and I will clearly disagree. (Bizarrely, it seems that sbw is questioning your stance and "adopting" a different stance more similar to mine.)

 

[Reformed1689]

Here you and I will clearly disagree. (Bizarrely, it seems that sbw is questioning your stance and "adopting" a different stance more similar to mine.)

I agree that we disagree and I am ok with that. And yes, I do see the irony as well.

 

[Darrell C]

Again, it depends on my view of my salvation or God's view of my salvation.

We have to look at both perspectives: God's (eternal) and ours (temporal).

You know you weren't saved until Christ drew you to Him. No amount of commentary will change that fact. The only thing that can change is whether you will admit it or continue to preserve the view you want to hold onto.

I understand that, Austin.

Scripture makes it clear that there was a day in your temporal life when the Comforter convicted you of sin, made you understand the reality of your sin, Christ's righteousness, and your eternal destiny. You didn't say, "Glad you're back, Lord," you said "Lord save me, a sinner!"

And He did. That day you received eternal life because you were baptized into Christ for the first time in all of Eternity. You received the eternal indwelling of God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.

That God foreknew you doesn't change that. That you are a member of the elect doesn't change the fact you were conceived and born outside of relationship with and to God.

For me, I was brought to faith at age 4. When I read God's word, I see that I was chosen and adopted before the foundation of the world.

I think that's great. Me, I lived a lawless and hellish life until 25 before I was saved. Part of me envies those brought up in an environment in which the children are instructed in God's will.

Part of me is glad I wasn't. I wasn't subject to indoctrination that often accompanies such an upbringing. And I am not saying you are indoctrinated due to your upbringing, just stating that I am glad I went through what I did and experienced what I did, because there are those I can minister to (drug addicts and alcoholics) that those who have no experience with addiction and alcoholism cannot.

Still, I often wonder how things would have been if I had not grown up the way I did. And I can still see that "upbringing" having an impact on my life now.

So, you can see that your simplistic question and demand is not so simple as you imagine it to be.

It's a simple question, but as you admit, not simplistic.

While I agree we must consider both an eternal perspective of God and the temporal perspective we have, we can answer this very simple question with a yes or a no and be done with it

I ask you, do you deny that God chose and adopted you before the foundation of the world?

I do believe God chose me for His purpose, yes, but no—I was not adopted until I was eternally redeemed.

I say this because this is what Scripture teaches:


Romans 8:14-16 King James Version

14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:


Scripture defines the "Spirit" of v.15 as the Spirit of God. We know that this is a reference to "the Spirit that was sent down from Heaven."

He is the Spirit associated with our adoption, and He was not sent during Old Testament Eras and Ages. He could not come until Christ returned to Heaven (John 16:7-9)


Romans 9:4
Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

The promise of adoption was revealed to Israel. They are still awaiting that adoption because they have rejected He Who came unto His Own. The promises were given unto them specifically, and Gentile Inclusion makes the promises available to all families of the earth, because the promises precede the Covenant of Law and the creation of this witness people who were a picture of the Church (just as animal sacrifice was a picture of Christ's death).


Galatians 4:4-6
King James Version

4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.



There is a specific time when God sent His Son to redeem us from the Law that we might receive the adoption of sons. Hence no man was adopted prior to God manifesting in the flesh (John 1:11-13).

We see here that 1) God sent His Son at the appropriate time, 2) men were redeemed from the Law, 3) men received the adoption of/as sons, and 4) we received the Spirit of Christ when/while we were adopted.


Ephesians 1:5
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,


Being predestinated to adoption itself shows that the Adoption takes place at a future time from when the promise was given.

It is through Jesus Christ, Who also has a beginning in time in the Body that God created to take up residence in, that He might die in our stead. The Son of God is Eternal God, the Creator. But Jesus Christ is the Messiah that was prophesied to come and save Man from his sin.

So too, you have not been eternally redeemed from eternity past, but it was that day you were eternally redeemed in the temporal that you become a son of God:


John 1:11-13 King James Version

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.



We can't make the eternal and temporal perspectives identical, particularly when God went through the trouble of teaching us why we should not in His Word.


God bless.

 

[AustinC]

We have to look at both perspectives: God's (eternal) and ours (temporal).

You know you weren't saved until Christ drew you to Him. No amount of commentary will change that fact. The only thing that can change is whether you will admit it or continue to preserve the view you want to hold onto.

I understand that, Austin.

Scripture makes it clear that there was a day in your temporal life when the Comforter convicted you of sin, made you understand the reality of your sin, Christ's righteousness, and your eternal destiny. You didn't say, "Glad you're back, Lord," you said "Lord save me, a sinner!"

And He did. That day you received eternal life because you were baptized into Christ for the first time in all of Eternity. You received the eternal indwelling of God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.

That God foreknew you doesn't change that. That you are a member of the elect doesn't change the fact you were conceived and born outside of relationship with and to God.





I think that's great. Me, I lived a lawless and hellish life until 25 before I was saved. Part of me envies those brought up in an environment in which the children are instructed in God's will.

Part of me is glad I wasn't. I wasn't subject to indoctrination that often accompanies such an upbringing. And I am not saying you are indoctrinated due to your upbringing, just stating that I am glad I went through what I did and experienced what I did, because there are those I can minister to (drug addicts and alcoholics) that those who have no experience with addiction and alcoholism cannot.

Still, I often wonder how things would have been if I had not grown up the way I did. And I can still see that "upbringing" having an impact on my life now.




It's a simple question, but as you admit, not simplistic.

While I agree we must consider both an eternal perspective of God and the temporal perspective we have, we can answer this very simple question with a yes or a no and be done with it



I do believe God chose me for His purpose, yes, but no—I was not adopted until I was eternally redeemed.

I say this because this is what Scripture teaches:


Romans 8:14-16 King James Version

14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:


Scripture defines the "Spirit" of v.15 as the Spirit of God. We know that this is a reference to "the Spirit that was sent down from Heaven."

He is the Spirit associated with our adoption, and He was not sent during Old Testament Eras and Ages. He could not come until Christ returned to Heaven (John 16:7-9)


Romans 9:4
Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

The promise of adoption was revealed to Israel. They are still awaiting that adoption because they have rejected He Who came unto His Own. The promises were given unto them specifically, and Gentile Inclusion makes the promises available to all families of the earth, because the promises precede the Covenant of Law and the creation of this witness people who were a picture of the Church (just as animal sacrifice was a picture of Christ's death).


Galatians 4:4-6
King James Version

4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.



There is a specific time when God sent His Son to redeem us from the Law that we might receive the adoption of sons. Hence no man was adopted prior to God manifesting in the flesh (John 1:11-13).

We see here that 1) God sent His Son at the appropriate time, 2) men were redeemed from the Law, 3) men received the adoption of/as sons, and 4) we received the Spirit of Christ when/while we were adopted.


Ephesians 1:5
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,


Being predestinated to adoption itself shows that the Adoption takes place at a future time from when the promise was given.

It is through Jesus Christ, Who also has a beginning in time in the Body that God created to take up residence in, that He might die in our stead. The Son of God is Eternal God, the Creator. But Jesus Christ is the Messiah that was prophesied to come and save Man from his sin.

So too, you have not been eternally redeemed from eternity past, but it was that day you were eternally redeemed in the temporal that you become a son of God:


John 1:11-13 King James Version

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.



We can't make the eternal and temporal perspectives identical, particularly when God went through the trouble of teaching us why we should not in His Word.


God bless.

We will disagree on this. Where as you are emphasizing the human experience, I am emphasizing the Divine action of God. This precisely why Peter expresses our salvation/ adoption as...already, but not yet. What God ordered and wrote down before time began, God then invoked in time. As little children, we experience the adoption in time, yet God has always adopted us from before time began.

Already, not yet.

We live with this tension and seeming paradox.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Except that is not what I believe, nor do I think that is what the Bible teaches. I believe we are chosen in Christ to be adopted as sons. John 1 clearly states that we will become, not already are, sons of God. It's not sealed in the past. We have been given the right to have it happen.

Now, do I believe all of the elect will be adopted before they leave this world? Absolutely. But do I believe that they are already adopted when they are born? No I do not.

What does chosen before the foundation of the world mean? If a person is chosen to salvation then they are already saved

 

[Reformed1689]

What does chosen before the foundation of the world mean? If a person is chosen to salvation then they are already saved

Why? I chose to adopt my foster daughter before she was even born, but she is not yet adopted (though we are just weeks away) why do you think that is any different?