Good Verses Evil Men

[Jerry Shugart]

Matthew Henry believed in justification by works and therefore naturally he is going to side with your position.

You prove that you are willing to attack anyone if they do not agree with your discredited ideas. I challenge you to quote anything which he wrote where he ever said that "works" were necessary for being justified before God.

Matthew Henry made the following remarks in order to prove that James was not saying that "works" were necessary for salvation:

"Paul speaks of justification in the sight of God, who justifies those only that believe in Jesus, and purely on account of the redemption that is in him. Thus we see that our persons are justified before God by faith, but our faith is justified before men by works" (Matthew Henry, Commentary on James 2).

You have no respect for anything except for your discredited ideas. No one who disagrees with you is safe from your vicious attacks and misrepresention.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Are you saying this is the NORMAL state of an infant?

A.W. Pink, a well known Calvinist writer of the twentieth century, wrote that "there can be no point of contact between God and His Christ with a sinful man until he is regenerated. There can be no lawful union between two parties who have nothing vital in common. A superior and an inferior nature may be united together, but never contrary natures" (A.W. Pink, Regeneration or the New Birth, Chapter 1).

Of course Pink is correct as witnessed by the following words of the Apostle Paul:

"For what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? And what communion hath light with darkness?" (2 Cor.6:14).

Pink says, "there can be no point of contact between God and His Christ with a sinful man until he is regenerated." However, according to your view the Holy Spirit came in contact with John the Baptist while he remained spiritually dead in sin and a child of wrath!

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Jerry makes an excellent point of yet another clear fallacy in Biblicist's philosophy.:thumbs:



On another point: Scripture does not say that men are justified in the eyes of God only by faith, and that works only serve to justify man before man.

There is no indication in Scripture that Abraham was justified in his act until he actually started to carry out the command of God.

Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

I say, yes indeed he was justified by that act, even if it goes against the grain of everyone's theology. The very act proved his faith, and without the act his faith would have been proven dead.

When one divorces works from faith, or faith from works, there is but one result. Antinomianism rules.

One only needs to understand that when works are spoken of they are spoken of ONLY in the sense of 'not without which,' and NOT spoken of in the sense of 'that for the sake of.' No work of man, once sin has been entered into to, has the least merit to it. We are NOT saved by our works but neither will any man be saved 'apart from' works, for faith without works is dead being alone and dead faith will save no one.

Again, this has been illustrated many times in the illustration of the prisoner and pardons granted or withheld.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Padre: John was not good in the absence of the Holy Spirit - and he shall be filled with the Holy Spirit.

HP: Why do you 'selectively' quote a mere portion of the verse?

 

[Darrell C]

Jerry makes an excellent point of a clear fallacy in Biblicist's philosophy.:thumbs:



On another point: Scripture does not say that men are justified in the eyes of God only by faith, and that works only serve to justify man before man.

There is no indication in Scripture that Abraham was justified in his act until he actually started to carry out the command of God.

Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

I say, yes indeed he was justified by that act, even if it goes against the grain of everyone's theology. The very act proved his faith, and without the act his faith would have been proven dead.

When one divorces works from faith, or faith from works, there is but one result. Antinomianism rules.

One only needs to understand that when works are spoken of they are spoken of ONLY in the sense of 'not without which, and NOT spoken of in the sense of "that for the sake of." No work of man, once sin has been entered into to, has the least merit to it. We are NOT saved by our works but neither will any man be saved 'apart from' works, for faith without works is dead being alone and dead faith will save no one.

Again, this has been illustrated many times in the illustration of the prisoner and pardons granted or withheld.

Not much time today, I am afraid, but I would ask that it be shown from James two where the context does not speak of the temporal life and the deeds done in it.


James 2

8If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:

9But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.


When and where is the "royal law" fulfilled?



Ephesians 6

King James Version (KJV)

1Children, obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right.

2Honour thy father and mother; which is the first commandment with promise;

3That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth.





Hebrews 10:1-4

King James Version (KJV)

1For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

2For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

3But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.

4For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.


While it will probably be debated from now til the end of this age how a man is justified, there is no question that apart from from the sacrifice of Christ man's salvation cannot be made complete.

Justification is through Christ alone...apart from the law.

That cannot be argued.

(well, it can be, just not in light of scripture)

God bless.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Darrell: Not much time today, I am afraid,....

HP: Well it must be my lucky day!:laugh: Just kiddiing!

Darrell: but I would ask that it be shown from James two where the context does not speak of the temporal life and the deeds done in it.

HP: You want me to 'prove' something you say he context does not speak concerning and not in the text. Hmmmm. That is an interesting request.

James 2

8If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:

9But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.

Darrell: When and where is the "royal law" fulfilled?

HP: This is your nickel. Tell us what you think. Does it end when we leave this world?

Darrell: Ephesians 6: 1-3

HP: Tell us from the text where it does not speak of anything other than temporal life in the text.

Darrell: Hebrews 10:1-4

While it will probably be debated from now til the end of this age how a man is justified, there is no question that apart from from the sacrifice of Christ man's salvation cannot be made complete.

HP: Speaking of salvation, i.e., God's offer of grace to men that have sinned, we are in full agreement!!

Darrell: Justification is through Christ alone...apart from the law.

HP: No amount of obedience on our part can justify us from sin, but neither will any be justified from sin apart from fulfilling the conditions God has set forth for man to comply with, initially, repentance and faith, and subsequently obedience until the end. (for the sake of time the verses supporting these issues have been posted so many times I will not re-post them here.)

 

[padredurand]

HP: Why do you misquote Scripture? I thought you were a Pastor?

Where did I misquote? Oh, shame on me I forgot the quotation marks. I assumed the separating hyphen and the bold print would show that I was using a portion of your previous post. :flower:

Jesus clearly stated that none was good except God alone. He is the standard by which all goodness is measured. John was not good absent the presence of the Holy Spirit. Children are not good absent the presence of the Holy Spirit. We might be decent and moral from a worldly perspective but not good from God's point of view.

There is not one single word in Scripture that calls any human good absent from God.

And speaking of Abraham.... He was not justified by his act. He was justified because he believed God.

Romans 4:1-3 NAS77
1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found?
2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about; but not before God.
3 For what does the Scripture say? "AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS."

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Padre: Where did I misquote? Oh, shame on me I forgot the quotation marks. I assumed the separating hyphen and the bold print would show that I was using a portion of your previous post.

HP: I should have asked, why are you just quoting part of that verse? My apology. Sorry.

You still miss the point. "he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost" was not the point in question nor does it represent all of the truth being set forth in that verse. The verse does not stop with those words, but continues, "even from his mother's womb." The latter point is what Jerry was bringing up.

My question to you: Will the Holy Ghost inhabit and fill a vessel 'even from his mother's womb' that is sinful and wicked from birth?

 

[padredurand]

HP: I should have asked, why are you just quoting part of that verse? My apology. Sorry.

You still miss the point. "he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost" was not the point in question nor does it represent all of the truth being set forth in that verse. The verse does not stop with those words, but continues, "even from his mother's womb." The latter point is what Jerry was bringing up.

My question to you: Will the Holy Ghost inhabit and fill a vessel 'even from his mother's womb' that is sinful and wicked from birth?

If we believe ourselves to be born again then the answer has to be yes. A child in the womb is a mystery to us but not to God who formed us (Psalm 139). What difference does it make if He redeems John in the womb or a 60 year-old face down in a gutter? That is God's business. What did Jesus say to Nicodemus?

The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
John 3:8 KJV


John Gill comments on this verse: "For ought any mortal can say, or do to the contrary: and so the Spirit of God is a free agent in regeneration; he works how, and where, and when he pleases; he acts freely in the first operation of his grace on the heart, and in all after influences of it; as well as in the donation of his gifts to men, for different purposes..."

I will not question the how, why and when of God's work but will rejoice that He will redeem all of His elect. :thumbsup:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

PD, your comments need more time to thoughtfully address than I have at this moment. I am thinking! I will respond as soon as I can. Thanks!

 

[Darrell C]

HP: No amount of obedience on our part can justify us from sin, but neither will any be justified from sin apart from fulfilling the conditions God has set forth for man to comply with, initially, repentance and faith, and subsequently obedience until the end. (for the sake of time the verses supporting these issues have been posted so many times I will not re-post them here.)

This is the only thing that does not try to require me to supply more, rather than addressing what was stated, but, good job! Before long, we will have you quoting what is actually said by others, as well as answering.

I'm proud of you, HP.

I will also say, yes, this is your lucky day, I am out of time, and have busied myself with irritating other members...lol.

You can indeed post many verses stating the "requirements of salvation," to which I would respond by showing that God Himself makes man able to carry out those requirements.

From the very word which He utilizes to bring repentance (which did not come from man, therefore cannot be ascribed to Him), to the conviction of sin, righteousness and judgment (which he could not repent apart from), to the very Christ, that gave Himself for, not our sins...but our sin.

For if salvation relied upon one deed of man, or is nullified by one act of sin (for to beguilty of one is to be guilty of the whole law), then w might be able to say that man can be righteous, and have life...apart from God.

God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Hope all have a great weekend, and a blessed service tomorrow.

God bless.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

God bless you also Darrell!:thumbs:





Now....... let's see how many posts I can post before he gets back. :laugh:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Padre: If we believe ourselves to be born again then the answer has to be yes. A child in the womb is a mystery to us but not to God who formed us (Psalm 139). What difference does it make if He redeems John in the womb or a 60 year-old face down in a gutter? That is God's business. What did Jesus say to Nicodemus?

HP: When men get all wrapped up in trying to prove why men sin, I say sin is a mystery and there is no 'reason' one can attach to it, especially the notion iof OS. Padre, when Jerry or myself mentions the birth of John, automatically goes into the 'mystery' mode when it clearly shows the dogma of original sin to be at antipodes with the birht of John the Baptist.

What gives Padre, and others I might add, the corner on the market of mysteries?? It is fine for them to call mysteries down from heaven if it provides cover for the dogma of original sin, but if I point out a mystery, not in keeping with their pat answer of OS, I am chastised for doing so. Mystery of mysteries is this ownership of mysteries by the OS crowd.

It is not absurd to consider the reason why all men sin as a mystery. It is an absurdity to say that all men of necessity, from birth, due to Adam, are wicked sinners.....yet exclude the man named John. That is no mystery. That is simply a stark contradiction in their philosophical notion of sin that is not supported in the least by Scripture or reason. To throw their contradictions and absurd conclusions on God and a 'mystery' only He knows, is sheer absurdity.

Ones theology may indeed contain mysteries, but no ones theology should ever entertain stark contradictions and absurd conclusions.

 

[Darrell C]

God bless you also Darrell!:thumbs:





Now....... let's see how many posts I can post before he gets back. :laugh:

I was supposed to move furniture, but was granted a reprieve...so I'm back for a bit.

Though, I decided that since most of this is the same argument regurgitated, I would go irritate someone else...lol.

Hard for me to pass up a Rapture discussion.

Of course...you do believe in a pre-trib rapture, don't you HP?

lol

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

What's that Darrell?

 

[Darrell C]

What that Darrell?

Its a doctrine held by some that there will be a resurrection that takes place before the Tribulation.

lol

I think I liked "How's that Darrell" better. Much funnier.

Okay, really getting out of everybody's hair this time. Enjoyed it thoroughly,

God bless.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Darrell: Its a doctrine held by some that there will be a resurrection that takes place before the Tribulation.

HP: I missed that one in Scripture. Can you give me a reference?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
John 3:8 KJV

Yes, but we also know that the "gospel" is an integral part of being born again:

"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God...and this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you" (1 Pet.1:23,25).

Being born again speaks of passing from spiritual death unto spiritual life and here the Lord Jesus tells us how a sinner receives that life:

"It is the spirit that giveth life; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).

We also know that this "life" comes as a result of BELIEVING the good new of Jesus Christ, as witnessed by the words of the Apostle John here:

"Jesus performed many other signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name" (Jn.20:30-31).

So the Calvinists are wrong when they say that regeneration precedes faith. No one is regenerated until they believe.

 

[DHK]

. We are NOT saved by our works but neither will any man be saved 'apart from' works, for faith without works is dead being alone and dead faith will save no one.

What good works did the thief on the cross do?