Why? If you don't believe the communication of the word is necessary for salvation, then why waste the time and money on trips to India and the like? Why is evangelism necessary in your theology?
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Gospel Conversion
- Thread starter Sovereign Grace
- Start date
Christopher
New Member
Why? Because God chose the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe (1 Cor. 1:21).
It is the power of God unto salvation to everyone who believeth ("who is believing"). (Rom. 1:16)
It is the power of God unto salvation to everyone who believeth ("who is believing"). (Rom. 1:16)
Christopher
New Member
If Justification be considered in the knowledge or perception of it, it is by faith; and that is intended when we are said to be justified by faith, if faith is to be taken in a proper sense. By this grace we behold our natural pollution and inability to perform that which is good; the perfection and spirituality of the law; the necessity of an interest in Christ's righteousness, in order to our acceptance with God; the glory and excellency of it: in consequence of which we renounce our own works, and wholly depend upon the spotless righteousness of Christ. At some times, also, we by faith view that we are all fair, and without spot in the sight of God, as He considers us in the glorious robe of His Son's righteousness, though full of impurities and spots in ourselves. In those seasons we are filled with joy unspeakable, and full of glory; and can draw nigh to God, as our Father, with a holy freedom and liberty. This is the concern which faith has in our Justification: it beholds and views it, but doth not give being to it, or impute the righteousness of Christ to us, that is God's act without us (Rom. 4:6); and therefore Justification by faith, is only the comfortable knowledge or perception of that gracious privilege.
--Providence Baptist Ministries
--Providence Baptist Ministries
It is sad that professing Calvinists manifest such ignorance and outright unbelief in respect to the Gospel of God. Many be they which glory in 5 point Calvinism and claim it is the Gospel. But how pathetic that the same deny such a core doctrine of the Gospel of Christ as justification before God Almighty by Christ’s perfect righteousness alone. Those who boast in their own faith or act of faith as contributing to their alleged justification before God are ignorant of God’s righteousness and are going about to establish a righteousness of their own, Romans 10:3. They have not submitted themselves unto God’s righteousness, or as it literally says that such ”were not submitted” (aorist passive indicative) to the righteousness of God. No man is able to submit himself unto the righteousness of God, but God graciously and sovereignly submits his very own sheep unto the same, i.e. Christ’s righteousness, upon Gospel conversion in power and in Holy Spirit. God’s sheep were justified freely almost 2000 years ago, and that solely in and by Lord Christ Jesus and His perfect righteousness. Upon their irresistible conversion through the Gospel of grace in the Spirit’s power they are submitted to God’s righteousness, even the righteousness of Christ their blessed Redeemer, and all boasting is excluded (Romans 3:27) by a principle of faith. One who boasts in his supposed faith or act of faith as making a difference between justified or unjustified has not had his boasting excluded, and that is the same as to not have been submitted to God’s righteousness, and such an one has manifestly not the said principle of faith. The doctrine of Luther and others called Sola Fide is nothing but antinomianism, for it does not establish law (3:31). But the scriptural doctrine of free justification by Christ’s blood and obedience alone, this fully honors God in His redemptive character as a just God and a merciful Saviour, and establishes law, makes it honorable. He who boasts in his supposed faith as contributing to his alleged justification has faith in his own faith. Such an one’s glory is his shame and his god is his belly. One who has been submitted to the righteousness of God in Christ has had all carnal boasting excluded, and his glorying is in the LORD, even in Christ Jesus, God’s Messias, and Him crucified. Such an one has God-wrought faith by God’s grace, which is an emptying and boast-excluding grace implanted in the Spirit’s quickening and drawn into fruitful exercise upon the arrival of the revelation of God’s righteousness, which is from faith unto faith (Rom. 1:17).
Someone said that the Bible expressly teaches justification by ”faith IN Jesus Christ”, and that the KJV is in error as compared to modern versions. No, the KJV is right when is says ”faith OF Christ”. Both in Rom. 3:22 and Gal. 2:16 the Greek says ”pisteôs Iêsoû Christoû” which correctly and literally rendered reads ”faithfulness (or, faith) OF Jesus Christ”. Both Iêsoû and Christoû are in the genitive. If the Greek construction had been with ”eis” plus accusative of Jesus Christ it might read ”IN Jesus Christ”. But the Spirit of inspiration inspired Paul to say ”pisteôs Iêsoû Christoû”, because this is the truth, that God’s righteousness is by Jesus Christ’s faithfulness, even His perfect voluntary obedience unto death, even the death of the cross (Phil. 2:8, Rom. 5:19). Of new versions the NET-Bible correctly renders ”faithfulness OF Jesus Christ”. Also in Rom. 3:26 is the like construction, i.e. ”pisteôs Iêsoû” – ”faithfulness (or, faith) OF Jesus”. Most versions, KJV included, wrongly render this as ”believeth in Jesus”, when it is clear the Greek construction does not call for such a translation. The last clause of 3:26 says ”dikaioûnta ton ek pisteôs Iêsoûs” – ”justifying the one (or, ”him”; masc.) of faithfulness (or, ”faith”) of Jesus”. Just because the translators did not understand the theological meaning of this difficult clause does not give them the right to guess what it means and render erroneously. The translators of the KJV were in the main Protestant pedobaptists who held to Sola Fide as Luther, believing in ”justification by (an act of) faith alone”. This may explain why they so inconsistently rendered the genitive construction ”pisteôs Iêsoû”/”pisteôs Iêsoû Christoû” either as ”faith OF…” or ”believeth IN …”. Luther more erroneously renders all three examples as ”faith IN…” or ”believeth IN…” respectively. These are not things difficult to see, except one has an evil heart of unbelief. It is not without warrant that the apostles warned of mockers and false prophets and antichrists, who ”doth not (biblically) confess Jesus Christ having come in flesh” (1John 4:3). Is it not high time to take forth the precious from the vile. If justification before God the righteous Judge is by an act of subjective faith in Christ as most professors believe then Christ died in vain and righteousness is by creature efforts. Some may accuse me of being unloving and mean and hard, but the word of God says such an one is all these things who denies the Son of God, denies the record God gave of His Son Jesus Christ the Righteous. May God the Lord mercifully bless someone to see the truth as it is in Jesus. Amen.
Harald
Someone said that the Bible expressly teaches justification by ”faith IN Jesus Christ”, and that the KJV is in error as compared to modern versions. No, the KJV is right when is says ”faith OF Christ”. Both in Rom. 3:22 and Gal. 2:16 the Greek says ”pisteôs Iêsoû Christoû” which correctly and literally rendered reads ”faithfulness (or, faith) OF Jesus Christ”. Both Iêsoû and Christoû are in the genitive. If the Greek construction had been with ”eis” plus accusative of Jesus Christ it might read ”IN Jesus Christ”. But the Spirit of inspiration inspired Paul to say ”pisteôs Iêsoû Christoû”, because this is the truth, that God’s righteousness is by Jesus Christ’s faithfulness, even His perfect voluntary obedience unto death, even the death of the cross (Phil. 2:8, Rom. 5:19). Of new versions the NET-Bible correctly renders ”faithfulness OF Jesus Christ”. Also in Rom. 3:26 is the like construction, i.e. ”pisteôs Iêsoû” – ”faithfulness (or, faith) OF Jesus”. Most versions, KJV included, wrongly render this as ”believeth in Jesus”, when it is clear the Greek construction does not call for such a translation. The last clause of 3:26 says ”dikaioûnta ton ek pisteôs Iêsoûs” – ”justifying the one (or, ”him”; masc.) of faithfulness (or, ”faith”) of Jesus”. Just because the translators did not understand the theological meaning of this difficult clause does not give them the right to guess what it means and render erroneously. The translators of the KJV were in the main Protestant pedobaptists who held to Sola Fide as Luther, believing in ”justification by (an act of) faith alone”. This may explain why they so inconsistently rendered the genitive construction ”pisteôs Iêsoû”/”pisteôs Iêsoû Christoû” either as ”faith OF…” or ”believeth IN …”. Luther more erroneously renders all three examples as ”faith IN…” or ”believeth IN…” respectively. These are not things difficult to see, except one has an evil heart of unbelief. It is not without warrant that the apostles warned of mockers and false prophets and antichrists, who ”doth not (biblically) confess Jesus Christ having come in flesh” (1John 4:3). Is it not high time to take forth the precious from the vile. If justification before God the righteous Judge is by an act of subjective faith in Christ as most professors believe then Christ died in vain and righteousness is by creature efforts. Some may accuse me of being unloving and mean and hard, but the word of God says such an one is all these things who denies the Son of God, denies the record God gave of His Son Jesus Christ the Righteous. May God the Lord mercifully bless someone to see the truth as it is in Jesus. Amen.
Harald
Christopher
New Member
That's one of those posts that make you shout brother Herald!
Christopher
New Member
For one thing I'm most certainly not an Arminian. That is a doctrine straight from the bellies of Hell; a doctrine that puts the creation's will above that of his Creator.
There's nothing wrong with handing out GOD'S WORD. But when you get these tracts that tell you to repeat some prayer and check a box that says "yes" to indicate that you've accepted Jesus Christ as your personal Saviour (phrase not mentioned in the Bible, btw) and send it back in and all that garbage, you're nothing more than an Arminian.
Actually it is probably the foolishness of the message preached or the "preachment" but whatever it is, you have said exactly what I would say. You have admitted the necessity of the communication of the message. Yet all along, it seems that your side has argued against this necessity, arguing that people are already saved without the message preached. Again, my question is, if the message is of no avail in the salvation of souls (as you have previously argued I believe), then why is evangelism necessary. If all those souls in primitive nations who are elect are going to be saved apart from teh communication of hte gospel message, what use is there to plant a church in India or anywhere else? It seems a total contradiction to your position and to what you have stated above.
Alas, Harald, but it is not we who have claimed a "false gospel" as you suggest. No one on our side has suggested that we are saved by our own faith. Faith is a gift from God apart from which no one can be saved. Scripture is clear in multiple passages that salvation comes from the message preached and cannot be accomplished without it. It is equally clear that individual faith is necessary for salvation. Your arguments about the faithfulness of Christ Jesus have already been shown to be insufficient to deal with the biblical evidence. There is clearly an individual and personal component of faith that is the gift of God so that no one may boast of their faith.
lastly, I would encourage you to back away from terms like ignorance and outright unbelief, and from calling your opponents false prophets and mockers. IT is unnecessary and contributes nothing substantive to the discussion.
Only if one denies the divine origin of faith can this be true. I will join you in refuting those who deny the divine origin of faith. However, Scripture refutes your contention that salvation comes apart from faith. It most certainly does not.
Misguided and mislead would be more appropriate. No one here has denied that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh or has denied the record of his life, death, resurrection, and sole sufficiency for salvation. The debate is about whether or not Scripture makes individual faith a necessary component of salvation. We contend that it clearly does on the basis of many passages. While God saves all the elect that he intends to save, and while Christ's accomplished and ensured that salvation, it will not take place apart from the propositional communication of the facts of God, sin, Christ, and salvation.
Christopher
New Member
The Gospel is not a proposition, but a proclamation.
(Isaiah 61:1, 2) The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;
God sends out preachers to tell God's children what God has already done, not what He will do if they do all these works. And yes, faith is a work. If something is done on your part to receive Christ, it is a work.
Visit http://www.pbsermons.org/ and listen to elder Sonny Pyle's sermon entitled "Freedom."
I won't argue with that. But we are certainly told that all who will call on the name of the Lord will be saved.
Then why does Paul constantly contrast faith with works? And how, if faith is the gift of God, is it a work?
And none of this really deals with the problems that rom 10:14-17 and 1 Cor 1:18ff present for your position.
Christopher said:
Helen made this comment on What did God do about the natives thread...God had left a 'hook' on which to hang the gospel in every culture in the world. In every culture there was knowledge of a one true, or chief God who created the world and was going to fix broken men.
Do the scriptures say explictly that these men who believe in God are hellbound or are they in need of a Paul on Mars Hill. They are to superstitous and need the unknown God they worship explained to them.
A proclamation of the Gospel is what is needed because a proposition will just put them back where they were before!... Brother Glen
What I would like to know is what makes us the authority on what a certain culture or people need? Who makes that decision?
Helen made this comment on What did God do about the natives thread...God had left a 'hook' on which to hang the gospel in every culture in the world. In every culture there was knowledge of a one true, or chief God who created the world and was going to fix broken men.
Do the scriptures say explictly that these men who believe in God are hellbound or are they in need of a Paul on Mars Hill. They are to superstitous and need the unknown God they worship explained to them.
A proclamation of the Gospel is what is needed because a proposition will just put them back where they were before!... Brother Glen
Christopher
New Member
About Evangelism:
There is nothing like the preached/written word to the born again child of God. It sets them free! They can KNOW that Jesus Christ died for their sins through the hearing/reading of the Gospel. I don't know of any child of God who would not want to share this glorious news with other people. I love to see people delivered from the untoward and wicked generation in which we live. It sounds like to me you're just making one of those "frozen chosen" statements that you accuse the Primitives of believing..."Since we don't have to and ultimately it won't matter, what's the point?" The Primitives certainly do not view evangelism this way.
There is nothing like the preached/written word to the born again child of God. It sets them free! They can KNOW that Jesus Christ died for their sins through the hearing/reading of the Gospel. I don't know of any child of God who would not want to share this glorious news with other people. I love to see people delivered from the untoward and wicked generation in which we live. It sounds like to me you're just making one of those "frozen chosen" statements that you accuse the Primitives of believing..."Since we don't have to and ultimately it won't matter, what's the point?" The Primitives certainly do not view evangelism this way.
"AMEN'...Brother Glen
Things have been said with respect to believing and calling on the Lord Christ. The word of God is clear on this matter, as it always is on every matter. Every aspect of the salvation of God’s unconditionally elected people is unconditional for them. God has not put any conditions or prerequisites whatsoever for the salvation of His sheep. Christ Jesus the Mediator fulfilled all the conditions on their behalf. He had vowed to do so in eternity past and at the appointed time He fulfilled what He had promised in the eternal covenant. He assumed flesh and tabernacled among men as the God-Man. In this capacity He fulfilled all the conditions for the salvation of His own people which He had come to save from their sins. The salvation He wrought out in His obedience unto death of the cross is applied to God’s elect by sovereign grace and unconditionally. It may be truthfully said that God the Father elected certain men in Christ before the foundation of the world. Christ redeemed this same amount of men by His blood. The Holy Spirit quickened the same and a great many of these He brought to Gospel conversion while they were in the body of flesh.
The Bible speaks about repentance toward God and faith toward Christ the Lord. These two things are most definitely not conditions or prerequisites so called for salvation, regeneration or whatever thing respects the salvation of God’s sheep. They may be said to be components of Gospel conversion, and at the same time gracious gifts of God to His own. The elect believe with a God-given belief and repent with a God-given repentance, according to the working of the might of His strength, according to the same divine energy which was employed when God raised Christ from among dead ones. True biblical Gospel conversion is always a so called Lordship salvation, but this Lordship aspect or submitting to the Lordship of Jesus Christ is by no means a prerequisite or condition for salvation or regeneration, as some heretically teach. Submittance to Christ’s Lordship is a free gift of God to those He has elected and justified in His beloved Son. This submittance is a component of conversion along with Spirit-empowered repentance and faith, and may be said to be a part of either or of both. God-wrought repentance involves God-wrought faith and vice versa. Gospel faith is not a matter of ”just believe” or ”it is easy to believe”. Gospel faith or conversion faith is an impossibility with man, therefore it is futile and foolish to talk about ”simple faith” or ”childlike trust”. Men may of themselves generate a counterfeit faith which they consider to be ”childlike trust” or ”simple faith” but before God the Lord such faith is no better than that of devils, yea it is an abomination unto the Lord. Such man-generated faith is what Paul called believing in vain, it is to believe without basis, groundlessly, and it only genders man-made (false) Christians. True Holy Spirit wrought Gospel faith is never a so called leap of faith as into some unknown something. On the contrary it has substance, it is the substance of thing not seen. God’s elect never believe without basis or groundlessly, ”in vain” (1Cor. 15:2). They do not believe some phantom who supposedly stands outside the heart and knocks and knocks and ”tries” to get in. God’s chosen ones believe on the basis of divinely presented evidence of things not seen. Christ must be revealed to the heart of His people by God the Holy Spirit (2Cor. 4:6). Before this they cannot and may not believe upon His Name. God-given Gospel faith is no simple thing, but a complicated thing which only God fully understands and which He only is able to generate, impart to His own. This said Gospel-faith is the very faith of the Son of God, which Paul speaks of in Galatians. He is the Author and Finisher of it. All the persuasion of would-be preachers and professed evangelists will never bring about true Gospel faith no matter how they exhort to ”just believe”, ”only trust” etc. Such said Gospel faith comes only to those for whom Christ died and arose again, and that of grace alone in and by and through Christ Jesus the Lord.
The confessing with the mouth follows Gospel salvation and is the result and fruit of it. Biblical Confessing is not necessarily the same as to speak aloud that ”Jesus is Lord” or ”Jesus Christ has come in flesh”. Even avowed atheists are able to do such things for whatever reasons, like as all the counterfeit believers who have crept in by stealth. Confessing as the Bible teaches has more to do with Isaiah 8:20 and 1 Timothy 6:3 than with plain audible professing of phrases like the ones I mentioned, however Biblical they are. It has to do with saying or affirming things with respect to the Person and work of the Lord Jesus Christ in agreement with the whole counsel of God, see Isa. 8:20. The Greek word homologeô (1John 4:2, 3 etc.) literally means to say the one and the same, and there is no other standard to agree with than God’s inspired and infallible word. False teachers, false believers and heretics are recognized by the fact that they speak of the world and the world hears them, but they speak not agreeingly with spiritual truth (God’s Gospel, and the doctrine of Christ) on a continual basis. One who has been converted aright by God will be testing the spirits to see if the confession they make is of God or of anti-Christ. The one who is of God speaks God’s words, God’s doctrine and truth, the one who is not of God speaks of the world and the world heeds such an one. Those who teach that any aspect of salvation whatsoever, and reception of spiritual blessings from God, is conditioned or contingent upon man and/or his effort or doing (or not doing) to any degree are teaching damnable heresy. God in His holy Scriptures clearly teaches that Salvation is of the LORD and it is in Christ Jesus the eternal Son of God and entirely of grace and for God’s chosen people and for His glory. Amen.
Harald
The Bible speaks about repentance toward God and faith toward Christ the Lord. These two things are most definitely not conditions or prerequisites so called for salvation, regeneration or whatever thing respects the salvation of God’s sheep. They may be said to be components of Gospel conversion, and at the same time gracious gifts of God to His own. The elect believe with a God-given belief and repent with a God-given repentance, according to the working of the might of His strength, according to the same divine energy which was employed when God raised Christ from among dead ones. True biblical Gospel conversion is always a so called Lordship salvation, but this Lordship aspect or submitting to the Lordship of Jesus Christ is by no means a prerequisite or condition for salvation or regeneration, as some heretically teach. Submittance to Christ’s Lordship is a free gift of God to those He has elected and justified in His beloved Son. This submittance is a component of conversion along with Spirit-empowered repentance and faith, and may be said to be a part of either or of both. God-wrought repentance involves God-wrought faith and vice versa. Gospel faith is not a matter of ”just believe” or ”it is easy to believe”. Gospel faith or conversion faith is an impossibility with man, therefore it is futile and foolish to talk about ”simple faith” or ”childlike trust”. Men may of themselves generate a counterfeit faith which they consider to be ”childlike trust” or ”simple faith” but before God the Lord such faith is no better than that of devils, yea it is an abomination unto the Lord. Such man-generated faith is what Paul called believing in vain, it is to believe without basis, groundlessly, and it only genders man-made (false) Christians. True Holy Spirit wrought Gospel faith is never a so called leap of faith as into some unknown something. On the contrary it has substance, it is the substance of thing not seen. God’s elect never believe without basis or groundlessly, ”in vain” (1Cor. 15:2). They do not believe some phantom who supposedly stands outside the heart and knocks and knocks and ”tries” to get in. God’s chosen ones believe on the basis of divinely presented evidence of things not seen. Christ must be revealed to the heart of His people by God the Holy Spirit (2Cor. 4:6). Before this they cannot and may not believe upon His Name. God-given Gospel faith is no simple thing, but a complicated thing which only God fully understands and which He only is able to generate, impart to His own. This said Gospel-faith is the very faith of the Son of God, which Paul speaks of in Galatians. He is the Author and Finisher of it. All the persuasion of would-be preachers and professed evangelists will never bring about true Gospel faith no matter how they exhort to ”just believe”, ”only trust” etc. Such said Gospel faith comes only to those for whom Christ died and arose again, and that of grace alone in and by and through Christ Jesus the Lord.
The confessing with the mouth follows Gospel salvation and is the result and fruit of it. Biblical Confessing is not necessarily the same as to speak aloud that ”Jesus is Lord” or ”Jesus Christ has come in flesh”. Even avowed atheists are able to do such things for whatever reasons, like as all the counterfeit believers who have crept in by stealth. Confessing as the Bible teaches has more to do with Isaiah 8:20 and 1 Timothy 6:3 than with plain audible professing of phrases like the ones I mentioned, however Biblical they are. It has to do with saying or affirming things with respect to the Person and work of the Lord Jesus Christ in agreement with the whole counsel of God, see Isa. 8:20. The Greek word homologeô (1John 4:2, 3 etc.) literally means to say the one and the same, and there is no other standard to agree with than God’s inspired and infallible word. False teachers, false believers and heretics are recognized by the fact that they speak of the world and the world hears them, but they speak not agreeingly with spiritual truth (God’s Gospel, and the doctrine of Christ) on a continual basis. One who has been converted aright by God will be testing the spirits to see if the confession they make is of God or of anti-Christ. The one who is of God speaks God’s words, God’s doctrine and truth, the one who is not of God speaks of the world and the world heeds such an one. Those who teach that any aspect of salvation whatsoever, and reception of spiritual blessings from God, is conditioned or contingent upon man and/or his effort or doing (or not doing) to any degree are teaching damnable heresy. God in His holy Scriptures clearly teaches that Salvation is of the LORD and it is in Christ Jesus the eternal Son of God and entirely of grace and for God’s chosen people and for His glory. Amen.
Harald
Harald, This will likely be my final post here. This is getting ridiculous. You post long posts that say very little if anything. No one on this side is arguing that man is saved by doing or contributing anything at all. What we are arguing is that the Bible explicitly says that salvation is the result of faith. If you deny the place of faith in salvation, then you are denying biblical salvation. We are not arguing that faith is a work of man or something that man conjures up. He cannot do so. Faith is the gift of God given to the elect.
On evangelism, I am still confused as to what the primitives are really saying. Tyndale asks, who makes us the authority on what a culture or people need? In regards to salvation, Scripture makes us an authority on that. However, there still seems to be a disconnect between your contention that the gospel message is unnecessary for salvation and your attempt to plant churches. Why do you plant churches and speak of evangelism? By your own admission, is it not unnecessary. God saves his elect without anything on your part. He does not need you to go to India or across the street to talk of salvation with someone. So why waste your money and time? Just let God do it. To contrast this view, we see Paul traveling across the known world to preach the gospel as much as he could because he understood that the gospel was the power of God to salvation, that men are born again through the word preached, that without faith it is impossible to be saved and that faith comes by hearing the word of Christ. Paul understood that his own sufferings were for the sake of the elect so that they would be saved. In other words, Paul saw a clear connection between his preaching (and resultant suffering) and the salvation of those elect but not yet saved. Paul disagreed with you so if what Paul preached was "damnable heresy" then sign me up for it. I will preach his message.
However, damnable heresy is stronger language than we need here ... so let's back off a bit.
[ May 11, 2002, 04:47 PM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]
On evangelism, I am still confused as to what the primitives are really saying. Tyndale asks, who makes us the authority on what a culture or people need? In regards to salvation, Scripture makes us an authority on that. However, there still seems to be a disconnect between your contention that the gospel message is unnecessary for salvation and your attempt to plant churches. Why do you plant churches and speak of evangelism? By your own admission, is it not unnecessary. God saves his elect without anything on your part. He does not need you to go to India or across the street to talk of salvation with someone. So why waste your money and time? Just let God do it. To contrast this view, we see Paul traveling across the known world to preach the gospel as much as he could because he understood that the gospel was the power of God to salvation, that men are born again through the word preached, that without faith it is impossible to be saved and that faith comes by hearing the word of Christ. Paul understood that his own sufferings were for the sake of the elect so that they would be saved. In other words, Paul saw a clear connection between his preaching (and resultant suffering) and the salvation of those elect but not yet saved. Paul disagreed with you so if what Paul preached was "damnable heresy" then sign me up for it. I will preach his message.
However, damnable heresy is stronger language than we need here ... so let's back off a bit.
[ May 11, 2002, 04:47 PM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]
Christopher said,
Christopher, I can tell you really love the Lord and if I have misrepresented you I do apologize. I don't believe we are as far apart as it may seem though there are some major differances between Reformed Baptists and Primitive Baptists on this issue of Gospel conversion. I do appreciate your last statement on evangelism and certaintly agree with you.
Christopher
New Member
I am glad that even though there are differences between our beliefs we can still have love for one another as brothers in Christ. Like you said, we're not as far apart as it seems. Most of the differences are rather minimal but since we're only discussing our differences they seem so far apart. Most of the differences come from the wording of our beliefs, and not the actual beliefs themselves.
Ray Berrian
New Member
I you study the idea of a decree it might help.
If God has decreed the exact number of saved and lost people autocratically, it is a done deal. Following correct logic no one needs to witness, study for the mission field or for the pulpit ministry. When God decrees an event or events it happens.
Another fly in the ointment . . . .
If God has decreed the exact number of saved and lost people autocratically, it is a done deal. Following correct logic no one needs to witness, study for the mission field or for the pulpit ministry. When God decrees an event or events it happens.
Another fly in the ointment . . . .
So do you think that God decrees ends without decreeing means? What if God decreed to save an exact number of people through an exact number of verbal gospel presentations? Is is then necessary to witness, study for the mission field and the pulpit ministry? What if God in eternity past decreed that I be here in this community, that I preach the gospel, and the his elect be saved through my preaching the gospel? Is it then necessary for me to preach? Absolutely. I think it is your understanding of decrees that hinders your understanding of the issues involved.