Gospel Conversion

[Ray Berrian]

While Calvinists generally feel that salvation is all of grace and also that the gift of God to His elect is that of faith, the Apostle Paul in writing Timothy portrays quite another picture. In II Timothy 1:12c says, ‘I know WHOM I HAVE BELIEVED, and am persuaded that He is able to keep that which I HAVE COMMITTED unto Him against that day.'

Although we gladly agree with you that the Holy Spirit works on the life of the unsaved wooing and drawing that person to Christ, the Word demands also, that we personally, trust in Jesus in order to seal our covenant with God. Paul said, ‘I HAVE BELIEVED . . .' He did not say I received the gift of belief or Christ's gift of belief to me.

Paul said I HAVE COMMITTED my life to Jesus and He is able to keep me until I see Him. Sure sounds like the language of "The Hour Of Decision" to me. We make a commitment or a faith decision toward the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. He does the keeping of the soul.

Some have wrongly thought that men like Rev. Dr. Billy Graham are merely evangelists. Many like him are deep in the Word and are in fact theologians themselves. Let's give due credit to God who raised up this man of God as the evangelist of this century if not of all time.

We ‘ . . . are kept by the power of God through FAITH unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.' [I Peter 1:5]

 

[Pastor Larry]

Ray,

Most Calvinists do not deny the necessity of individual faith. In fact, we affirm it. However, it is clear from Scripture that man cannot exercise faith in himself. He is dead. Faith and repentance are the gift of God. You keep setting up straw men but it is off topic.

Additionally, you failed to address my previous post.

 

[connieman]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
While Calvinists generally feel that salvation is all of grace and also that the gift of God to His elect is that of faith, the Apostle Paul in writing Timothy portrays quite another picture. In II Timothy 1:12c says, ‘I know WHOM I HAVE BELIEVED, and am persuaded that He is able to keep that which I HAVE COMMITTED unto Him against that day.'

I answer: Dr B...Paul also said, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." Eph 2:8-9 An unregenerate sinner who is an enemy of God, is incapable of true faith.

Although we gladly agree with you that the Holy Spirit works on the life of the unsaved wooing and drawing that person to Christ, the Word demands also, that we personally, trust in Jesus in order to seal our covenant with God. Paul said, ‘I HAVE BELIEVED . . .' He did not say I received the gift of belief or Christ's gift of belief to me.

I answer: He also said, "I HAVE BELIEVED" only after He was born of God. Paul also said "...by grace, ye are saved..." Eph 2:5 Here nothing is said of faith; Grace is God's favor, to grant as He pleases, and the gift of Faith is included in His Grace. God's Grace is a package...a "bundle", in computer software terminology. Included in Christ, by Grace, is "wisdom, righteousness, sanctification, and redemption." And, "Of Him(God) are ye in Christ Jesus...That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord." I Cor 1:30-31

Paul said I HAVE COMMITTED my life to Jesus and He is able to keep me until I see Him. Sure sounds like the language of "The Hour Of Decision" to me. We make a commitment or a faith decision toward the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. He does the keeping of the soul.

I answer: We make a commitment, or decision, only because we have been born of God and received a new heart. Men with the old heart of stone will not seek God, or come to Christ. Dr Graham is a nice man, no doubt, but he does not understand the Gospel of Grace, according to the scriptures. He preaches "another gospel, which is not another." As the old folks used to say, "He has the cart before the horse". Even a city boy like myself knows that won't work; even the horse knows that!!

Some have wrongly thought that men like Rev. Dr. Billy Graham are merely evangelists. Many like him are deep in the Word and are in fact theologians themselves. Let's give due credit to God who raised up this man of God as the evangelist of this century if not of all time.

I answer: You reveal your own shallowness in the Word, Dr B. Dr Graham is unsound in the true faith.

We ‘ . . . are kept by the power of God through FAITH unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.' [I Peter 1:5]

I answer: But, the faith spoken of here, true faith, is not of man, but of God, by His grace (see above) You have nothing of which to boast, Dr B. Paul said, "What do you have that you have not received? And, if you have received it, why do you boast as if you had not received it?"

Regards, In the Name of Him who loved us who have believed before we ever loved Him,

connieman

[ May 18, 2002, 02:21 AM: Message edited by: connieman ]

 

[Ray Berrian]

connieman,

The reason you and others can believe your previous post is due to your flawed view of Total Depravity. Human kind although capable of any sin, we have not totally lost the Image of God in our inner beings.

God has not destroyed our intelligence, will to choose, or conscience. If total depravity were true these three entities, if not more, would be totally emasculated.

It is through the Holy Spirit reaching out to our wills, intelligence and conscience that we first have contact with the Living God. Human beings are not unspiritual 'stones' we bear the Image of God in the inner man. A little quoted verse of Calvinism is John 1:9. 'He was the true Light, which lighteth EVERY man who cometh into the world.'

Dr. A.T. Robertson, the famous Greek scholar says, 'The Quakers appeal to this phrase for their belief that to every man there is given an inner light that is sufficient guide, the Quaker's text it is called. But it many only mean that all the real light that men receive comes from Christ, not necessarily that each one receives a special revelation "Word Pictures In The New Testament" Volume V-- pg. 9'

God lights every person coming into the world for a reason. He does not want us to continue to walk in darkness. [I Timothy 2:3-6] All of his enlightening truth points us to the perfect Image of the Living God.

Do you people believe in the conviction of the Holy Spirit before God transforms sinners into the people of God?

'And when He is come, He will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment.' [John 16:8] Jesus, in His own words, said that when the Holy Spirit comes He will enlighten sinners in this way. These reprovals are pre-salvation ministrations of the Spirit of God. He convicts the people of the world of their sins, of His holiness and of their appointed, future judgment. That was enough to bring me to a convicted need to invite Jesus into my life.

 

[pinoybaptist]

Originally posted by Dr. Berrian:

Do you people believe in the conviction of the Holy Spirit before God transforms sinners into the people of God?

Yes, we do. And you just tied your own argument in knots with this one single sentence of yours.

No faith without the Holy Spirit Himself giving that faith. No conviction without the Holy Spirit Himself giving that conviction. And the Holy Spirit is God Himself, not just some ray of light that emanates from God and lights up what you call the "inner light" in man.
The Savior Himself who is God Himself said "No man can come to me except the Father draw Him", that is, draw Him to Christ in the Person of the Holy Spirit.
Man is totally depraved and the natural man totally in the dark as to the things of God, so no man, without the quickening first of the Holy Spirit can come to Him.
All men are corrupt and already on the way to hell from inception. God in His kindness and mercy chose some to save from that condemnation.

Man is inherently evil, not basically good as your argument seems to imply.

 

[connieman]

Dr Berrian...consider this:

"There is not a man upon the earth that doeth good, and does not sin." Without effective Divine intervention, all men are doomed to their just, eternal damnation.

"Every man at his best state is altogether vanity." Only God is good; all unregenerate men are evil, in the sight of God.

"And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, but men loved darkness rather than light."

Light is of no value to them that are blind, and who even hate the light.

Let us face up to the whole truth, Dr Berrian. No man who denies any of the Gospel principles set forth by "TULIP" is a true Christian, but he is a confessor of a false gospel. Such a person has not yet been "taught of God."

In the Name of Him whom we love only because[/b[ He first loved us,

connieman

[ May 18, 2002, 01:14 PM: Message edited by: connieman ]

 

[russell55]

Let us face up to the whole truth, Dr Berrian. No man who denies any of the Gospel principles set forth by "TULIP" is a true Christian, but he is a confessor of a false gospel. Such a person has not yet been "taught of God."

Whoa.....I believe all of the principles set forth in TULIP, but I cannot go along with that statement.

I believe that all those who are "of faith" are my brothers and sisters--and that faith is not an adherance to a certain set of doctrines, but an attitude of trust in God, trust in His provision for them in Christ. All who trust God have been taught of God--for true trust in God comes only through the Holy Spirit.

 

[Ray Berrian]

connieman,

I acknowledge your ability to read Bible verses and to try to back up your acquired doctrines. Please, don't believe that only people of Calvinistic persuasion believe these passages. We welcome all of God's truth.

Your response to my posting was less than glowing by way of refuting what I said about all people being enlightened by the Living Light of the world and about sinners retaining something of the Image of God in man. On second thought, I think it was merely brushed aside as non-applicable Scripture or an aspect of His truth that does not mesh with the theology of the historic leader from Geneva.

I rejoice that you are in the faith and that you apparently believe in the basic truth and testimony of the Word of God. I would hope that we both have benefits of the Holy Spirit, our Teacher.

 

[pinoybaptist]

Originally posted by russell55:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Let us face up to the whole truth, Dr Berrian. No man who denies any of the Gospel principles set forth by "TULIP" is a true Christian, but he is a confessor of a false gospel. Such a person has not yet been "taught of God."

Whoa.....I believe all of the principles set forth in TULIP, but I cannot go along with that statement.

I believe that all those who are "of faith" are my brothers and sisters--and that faith is not an adherance to a certain set of doctrines, but an attitude of trust in God, trust in His provision for them in Christ. All who trust God have been taught of God--for true trust in God comes only through the Holy Spirit.</font>[/QUOTE]I agree.
Christ's blood washed the saint's sin, not the doctrine that the believer holds on to.
We protest the gospel being preached and bandied about as a possibility instead of a definite and specific event for specific individuals. But no one is in any position to state anyone is not God's saint simply because he presents an opposing view to election.
That will be like saying only Baptists are saved, and only Bible Baptists constitute the Bride of Christ, wot ? (Hey you Bible Baps out there, no offense now, y'hear ?}

 

[connieman]

I figured that a plain, uncompromising statement of truth would run a lot of compromisers, "moderate", half and half "calminians", and lukewarm Christians who wish to be well-spoken of by all men, out of the woodwork...and I was right!

Not everyone who cries, "Lord, Lord" is a true christian. There is such a thing as a false brother, but he still claims to be a brother.

What a person believes does not save (salvation is by grace), but what a person believes is evidence of his salvation. Those who believe the Gospel of Grace thereby show their salvation by the Grace of God. Those who believe another gospel, or no gospel, and another Jesus, not of scripture, show that they are still in darkness. They may someday be born of God, but not now, when they are yet confessing false doctrine, about a false Christ.

Faith in the tooth-fairy does not save, faith in Santa Claus does not save, and "faith" in a Jesus who only tries to save, does not save, and is no indication of having been saved.

Which of the doctrines encompassed by TULIP can be denied without undermining, or denying, all the others? Think about it!

It is God who has declared all men Totally Depraved, and under His wrath, dead in trespasses and sins.

It is God who has Unconditionally Chosen some men to salvation, by His Grace.

It is God who sent Christ to die Only for the sins of His people, His elect out of the world, the sheep of His pasture, His church.

It is God who effectively calls His elect to faith in Christ. All whom He calls by His Grace and Spirit do infallibly come to Him, having been born again of God the Spirit.

It is God who guarantees, by His power, the Perseverance and final salvation of all who have been born again by His will. That is, all whom He chose, and for whom Christ died, and all whom He Irresistibly Called to repentance and faith, and all whom He upholds in Righteousness, SHALL BE SAVED.

Now, which of these doctrines may be denied, and a man still be considered a blood bought, God made, Christian? Of course, "The way of the fool is right in his own eyes."

There are many who deny various doctrines of the faith, and still maintain stoutly that they are "just as good a Christian as anyone. After all, we have the name of Jesus Christ right in our church name, they say." But are they to be believed when they deny the attributes and works of Christ? Most of the pseudo-christian cults of past centuries have a "faith", and a "christ", and a Bible, of some kind.

Who is Christ, and what did He do, and for whom did He do it, according to the scriptures?

Is faith of man, or of God?

What is it to be born of God? Who accomplishes this? Who decides? Is it really necessary?

BUT, to keep it simple, Does Jesus Actually Save anyone in particular, or does He only try to save everyone in general, without exception, depending only on who wants it?

The "right" answers to these things will not save, but they will tell the rest of us who is, and who isn't, as far as anyone but God can ever know for sure, 'til we all get to heaven, that is.

"If they speak not according to the testimony, it is because there is no truth in them." Only those who know God, and are known of Him, will speak His truth, and witness to His Christ. But, God knows His own, even before they know Him.

Regards, connieman

[ May 19, 2002, 02:23 AM: Message edited by: connieman ]

 

[pinoybaptist]

There are two ways one can say Jesus is Lord.
One is the devil's way, with trembling {James 2:19) and the other the believer's way (with awe).
One without confession of faith, the other with full confession of faith.
Nebuchadnezzar believed God is sovereign in all things. From his lips come one of the verses which we who believe in His Sovereign Electing Grace quote often:

....he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, what doest thou? Daniel 4:35

He believed, because of his experience, that God is sovereign above all, but remained a heathen, never once confessing God as his savior, but counting Him only the mightiest among the many gods he worshipped and served. He never called God his Lord.
Saul was a much-feared name among the believing Jews in his time, yet when he was brought under the same awesome power that the heathen king above was brought to, his first statement was "who art thou, Lord ?" and went on to write most of the New Testament and his name became Paul.
I don't think there is one serious, sincere Baptist in this board who joined this board to be popular or most-quoted or to compromise what he knows to be the true doctrine.
But, whatever his view of election, which all who hold to the doctrine here know to be the correct one, the fact still remains one is not saved by the doctrine of election, neither does God judge a man according to that doctrine, but according to the righteousness of Christ.
God has his people in all ages and nations. not just in the age or country where the doctrine of election is most popular or unpopular.
Even now, he has His people who die without ever hearing the gospel or of their election, yet they will be in the presence of their Lord whether or not they hear the proclamation, the good news, of their salvation.

 

[Eric B]

I take it Connieman must be from Outside the Camp or the Briders or some other group like that. Not only are non-Calvinists lost, but also these "compromising" Calvinists who believe the Gospel is necessary. But then they say you are not truly Calvinist. Which one do I believe. All are claiming to be the infallible truth. But at least they don't call into question whether others are saved.
Once again, you're whole assertion is based on a bunch of straw men, such as us believing in a fairy who "tries to save" just because we don't believe in a god who gets just as much or more pleasure in damning helpless people than in saving (the bottom line). If what you say is true:

Those who believe another gospel, or no gospel, and another Jesus, not of scripture, show that they are still in darkness. They may someday be born of God, but not now, when they are yet confessing false doctrine, about a false Christ.
"If they speak not according to the testimony, it is because there is no truth in them." Only those who know God, and are known of Him, will speak His truth, and witness to His Christ.

then you have condemned yourself if your speculations on what God's decrees entail are wrong.

[ May 19, 2002, 06:48 PM: Message edited by: Eric B ]

 

[russell55]

But then they say you are not truly Calvinist.

Well, I didn't say that! I think that anyone who believes the 5 pts of Calvinism can probably correctly be called a Calvinist (as the term is commonly used, anyway). Calvinism is not a monolith, however, and there is quite a bit of variation within the Calvinist camp.

There is what we might be able to call "mainstream Calvinism"---and saying that noone who doesn't embrace all of the 5 pts is saved would fall outside of that "mainstream Calvinism".

Which one do I believe. All are claiming to be the infallible truth.

Well I'm certainly not claiming to have the "infallible truth." I believe I see good scriptural justification for the 5 pts, but I don't believe I have all the infallible truth, and I don't expect to in this life. I don't expect anyone else will, either.

 

[Pastor Larry]

I think we need to be very careful about calling people "unsaved" or "lost." While I disagree with their doctrine as much as you do, it is unproductive to engage in that type of debate. Someone may be saved in spite of their doctrine and not because of it. Let's talk issues and exegesis, not one's spiritual status. It is unnecessary here.

 

[connieman]

pinoybaptist...

No, men are not saved by the doctrine of election, but they are saved by the God who elects without condition on the part of sinners...and how is it that those who supposedly are saved by the God who elects to salvation, deny that their God unconditionally elects only some to salvation? Or they insist that their God elects everyone, but actual salvation depends upon the sinner's "acceptance"?

How is it that those who confess that they have been born of God, yet insist that first they had to believe, of their own free-will, in order to "get born again", are ignorant of God's work on their behalf? How can they be born of God, and yet deny the very first works and ways of their Father?

No! I say again, those who prate so boldly of eternal salvation by their own "free-will decision", and by a universal atonement, among other errors, know not God, regardless of their loud professions of "faith". When they claim to trust in Jesus, ask which one?

Do not look for large crowds at the "strait" gate, nor along the narrow way.

Regards to all those who confess to salvation only because Christ was crucified for their sins, which good news they have been caused to believe by the Irresistible Grace of God,

connieman

[ May 19, 2002, 09:17 PM: Message edited by: connieman ]

 

[pinoybaptist]

Dear Connieman:
I would like to remind you, as well as myself, that this thread is about gospel regeneration, or does the gospel regenerate the sinner.
My position on this issue has always been no, it does not.
This position can perhaps be best explained by quoting Elder JQ Depoyster of the Primitive Baptists:

His elect people were not saved before the foundation of the world, except in the mind and purpose of God, but they did receive this grace, in Christ, before the world began. But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel - 2 Tim 1:10. When Jesus came into the world, the grace did appear and was manifest. It is the purpose of the gospel to bring this life and immortality to light. It's purpose is not to bring life and immortality, because Jesus did that.
Reproduced from Twelve Baskets of Fragments by J.Q. Depoyster.

Here is the link:

election, by jq depoyster

Elder Depoyster argued the invalidity of the view of Arminianism in this essay, but he did not invalidate the salvation of all Arminians.

The gospel does not regenerate, or save.

Since God has His elect people in every nationality and tongue, their knowledge of their election, or ignorance of it, does not change their eternal standing before God.
It is in this light that I say two things:

</font>

• There are some of God's elect people, who will not even hear the gospel or the name of Jesus in their lifetime;</font>
• Ignorance or awareness of election is not the issue for those who do hear the gospel in their lifetime. It is their submission to the Lordship of Christ in their lives that is at issue, therefore I do not judge their salvation based on their defense, or attack, of election.</font>

It is their understanding of the sovereignty of God that is , I believe, defective, and it is up to those like you who have a good grasp of God's sovereignty to expound this to them.
Are we sure that we will indeed see each and everyone in our churches, which are totally grounded on election and God's sovereignty, in heaven when the Day comes ?
We hope to, but are we sure ?
In the same manner, can we, in the Spirit of Christ, truly say, that when we get to Heaven, our Lord will show us all those souls burning in the lake of Fire and tell us that all the Arminians and all the Pentecostals and all the Neo-Evangelicals are there and there are none of them who entered heaven ?
As I have said previously, to say that one is not a Child of God because one does not believe in or hold to the doctrine of election is as preposterous as saying only Baptists are saved, and only Bible Baptists are the bride of Christ.
I say this seriously now, whereas in jest previously, because there is indeed such a view as that in my country, and over there, Bible Baptists are almost evenly split on election and "whosover".
Will you agree to that, with the other half of the Bible Baptists who hold to the doctrine of election ?
I hope not.
In Christ Alone:
pinoybaptist

 

[Pastor Larry]

After some more thought on this issue, I think the discussion here is between my position and the position of some others is somewhat a technical one.

It is clear that unsaved (natural) man cannot understand the significance of the gospel and thus it is necessary for there to be a unilateral work of the Holy Spirit on the mind for understanding. Some are inclined to call this unilateral work "regeneration" even though Scripture never uses the term that way. Others, such as myself, call that unilateral work the effectual call because of the way that "regeneration" and "life" as terms are used in Scripture. So far as that goes, there is no real difference between us. The difference with Ray and Nelson and some others is a far different one and much more problemmatic scripturally.

My contention with this position being espoused by the primitives is the belief that one can be saved without a propositional communication of the gospel message. Scripture makes it clear that such cannot happen. People are saved by the word. If you use regeneration as the term of awakening, they are regenerated to understand so that they respond in faith. But regeneration never takes place apart from the communication of the propositional message of salvation in Christ alone. On that, there is no real scriptural debate.

 

[connieman]

To All...

I hold that the Gospel only announces what God has done to save His elect people from their sins. Regeneration, or new birth, is an invisible and direct work of the Spirit of God, and infallibly and effectually enables belief in the Gospel.

All who have been born of God will be made to believe the Gospel, and confess their faith, as God gives them opportunity.

Only those who are born of God by the power of the Spirit will, and can, believe the proclaimation of the Gospel, but it is not the Gospel itself which regenerates.

Regeneration is necessary for belief of the good news of the Gospel. Those who sincerely believe the Gospel from the heart are those who have been born of God, and they will be moved of God to publicly confess this. Belief/faith is only the evidence of new birth, however, and not the cause of it.

I judge a person's present state of grace, or new birth by the Spirit, by his confession of faith in the true Gospel according to the scriptures. A person's present unbelief is not necessarily an indication of a lack of election. This remains unknown unless and until a confession of faith may be made in the future.

Only when death comes and there is no confession of faith, may we conclude that such a person was non-elect. Of course, we cannot know if there was faith implanted by God, but no opportunity for public confession, as in the case of the saved thief on the cross.

Still, I believe in election to salvation only through faith in Christ, although we may not always be aware of such faith. I think of Abraham, who saw Christ's day, and was glad, although there is no specific record of Abraham's "public profession of faith in Christ." But I think we are elected to repent and believe the Gospel, whether or not this be known publicly, in every case.

"...because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: Whereunto He called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ." II Thess 2:13-14

To sum up, a person's present state of grace may be judged by his confession of the true Gospel. But we cannot know that a person is non-elect because he has not yet made a confession of faith. That remains to be seen.

But a denial of Christ, or a confession of faith in a false christ, indicates that there has been no new birth, or regeneration, up to the present time.

Unconditional election by God to salvation is part and parcel of the Gospel according to the scriptures; any other "gospel", or doctrine of Christ, is false. Therefore, those who confess salvation because of their own "free-will" decision, and deny Sovereign Divine Unconditional Election, appear to be as yet unregenerate.

I base the use of confession as the evidence of regeneration upon the scripture "For out of the heart, the mouth speaketh."

The true doctrine of Christ must include His atoning death only for a people chosen of the Father, and given to the Son to save.

I continue to say that a denial of any of the principles set forth by TULIP is evidence of no new birth, BUT NOT of non-election. As for regeneration, "as long as there is life, there is hope." Election is in Eternity, but regeneration is in Time.

I hope I have made myself clear, and said what I intended to say.

connieman

[ May 20, 2002, 03:47 PM: Message edited by: connieman ]

 

[Eric B]

And Jehovah's Witnesses claim thatthey believe the true Gospel and one is not saved if he believes otherwise, and so does the Church of Christ, and the Oneness groups, and even the Muslims, and many other groups and sects. So what does that mean? This is precisely why the agnostics claim there is not objective truth or proper interpretation of the Bible. you say salvation is faith in Christ alone, yet you add some speculation on limited atonement and reprobation (read into scriptures) as a requirement of true faith-- just like all the other cults and cultlike groups do. As I said, if it's not true, then you condemn yourself. You have to prove it's the infallible interpretation of the Bible first before you go claiming detractors are lost. Else, you don't really believe in Christ alone at all, but rather in some human authority (as Rome does).

 

[connieman]

EricB...I don't have to "prove" a thing to any man, for I cannot. God will convince some men of His truth, but the others will be left in darkness until the Last Day.

"There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death." Still, God will show him, if He so pleases.

There is a narrow way beyond a strait gate, "but few there be that find it", and then only by the Grace of God. The vast majority, not being the objects of His grace, are found on the broad way that leads to destruction.

In the Name of Him who saves us by His grace alone.

connieman

[ May 21, 2002, 03:46 AM: Message edited by: connieman ]