Gospel of the Wolves

[CatholicConvert]

Just the fact that they were considering it shows that they have no idea what they're talking about. Don't you find it disturbing that you a member of the laity know better than the American Bishops?

Well, first of all, yes, it does bother me. And it equally bothers me that most of the American RC laity will read this ^#&^%@$(*& and think that it has some validity. The laity in the country are without a doubt some of the dumbest human beings I have ever encountered. Most of them do not know their Bibles, can't defend the Catholic Faith, and are political ignoramouses. This is why pro-abortion candidates keep getting elected despite the official position against abortion in the Church. Here in Pennsylvania, democrats can COUNT on the heavily Catholic areas of Pittsburg and Philadelphia and their surrounding counties to carry the state for them. Shame, shame, shame!!!

And WHERE, pray tell, are the bishops in all this? Where are they in leading the movement to excommunicate all those who are pro-death politicians? Where are they in making pointed pronouncements against the culture of death politicians and those who would vote for them? That RAT Jesse Jackson can go to black assemblies and preach against Republicans and for Democratic candidates and NOTHING -- NOTHING -- is done to him or the assembly he goes to for breaking the law. Where are the priests and bishops who will do the same and then willingly drag these hypocritical politicians into court to either make them be totally fair or once and for all show them for the hypocrites they are?

All this said, (and believe me, I was JUST WARMING UP!!) the doctrines of the Church are still officially correct. This piece of garbage paper from the bishops is just that -- a piece of garbage paper. It has no force. And until either the Holy Father or the Magisterium changes established doctrine into heresy, I will allow the Church to be filled with morons if necessary. After all, at one time, all of the Church except St. Athanasius and the pope were Arian heretics. Did the Church stop being the Church during this period of time?

Of course, ultimately, they are not my bishops anyway, so I can call them idiots. I am an Eastern Catholic and we do not have the problems the Roman Church is having and has developed since Vatican II. In fact, we keep getting refugees from Rome who wish to keep affiliation with Rome, but are fed up with "Guitar Masses" and other such eclessiastical nonsense. I assume this last paper will see another wave of immigrants hit the shores of our Church.

Brother Ed

 

[trying2understand]

Originally posted by jimraboin:
Let's stay focused on the facts. At which point did the Gospel from Israel change to another gospel...a gospel of wolves?
Jim

Jim,

Perhaps CatholicConvert has a point related to your topic in asking his question.

Why do you not answer directly?

"Will a devout Jew, one who is still waiting for a Messiah, be in Heaven?"

Ron

 

[trying2understand]

Originally posted by CatholicConvert:
The paper put out by the bishops was NOT an authorative encyclical. Therefore, it represents the musings of the bishops and is in no way an OFFICIAL DECLARATION of the Church or an official statement of doctrine.

Actually it wasn't even that.

It was written by lay members of a committee.

The portion that most find offensive was written by the Jewish member of the committee. It doesn't represent Catholic thought at any level.

Read it again with that understanding and it becomes very obvious.

Ron

[ September 09, 2002, 08:59 AM: Message edited by: trying2understand ]

 

[Nimrod]

Originally posted by CatholicConvert:

The laity(people of the Roman Catholic faith or church) in the country are without a doubt some of the dumbest human beings I have ever encountered. Most of them do not know their Bibles, can't defend the Catholic Faith, and are political ignoramouses.

Brother Ed

I agree. Who is to blame? Protestants? Fundamentals?

Sometime in the future I would like to discuss with these ignorant laity and show them the Roman Catholic view and the Protestant view.
But this is another topic.

 

[trying2understand]

Originally posted by jimraboin:
"Thus wrote the emperor to the Christians of Alexandria, assuring them that the exposition of the faith was neither made rashly nor at random, but that it was dictated with much research, and after strict investigation: and not that some things were spoken of, while others were suppressed in silence; but that whatever could be fittingly advanced in support of any opinion was fully stated. That nothing indeed was precipitately determined, but all was previously discussed with minute accuracy; so that every point which seemed to furnish a pretext for ambiguity of meaning, or difference of opinion, was thoroughly sifted, and its difficulties removed. In short he terms the thought of all those who were assembled there the thought of God, and does not doubt that the unanimity of so many eminent bishops was effected by the Holy Spirit."(same address)

Jot down and remember this. Constantine claims their conclusions were not rash or random...though some sat in "suppressed silence". Consider further.

Thoughts?

One thought is that your reading comprehension could be better.

Let's isolate the relevant words:

"...the exposition of the faith was neither made rashly nor at random, but that it was dictated with much research, and after strict investigation: and not that some things were spoken of, while others were suppressed in silence; but that whatever could be fittingly advanced in support of any opinion was fully stated."

Let's break it down further:

"not rashly nor random"

but instead was

"dictated with research and investigation"

as opposed to

"things not being spoken of"

or

"surpressed in silence"

That you read this to mean some person was surpressed in silence causes me to wonder how carefully you are proceeding in your studies in this regard. Are you excercising care to discover truth or scanning to find something to support your preconceptions?

Ron

[ September 09, 2002, 03:38 PM: Message edited by: trying2understand ]

 

[trying2understand]

Originally posted by jimraboin:
[QB]Well there you have it. Contemporary evidence that anti-semetism is the spirit of Catholicism.

Jim, do a web search on "Fred Phelps" and "Westboro Baptist Church" and "Jew".

Then come back and tell me about the spirit of Baptists.

If you can validly point to the words of one man and claim him to represent the spirit of all of Catholicism then justice demands that you allow the same to be said for Baptists.

Do you see my point?

Ron

 

[jimraboin]

Ron,

The reason I continually reference Constantine is because he is the founder of all institutional Gentile Christianity. The doctrines, creeds, system of governance etc...come from his Council of Nicaea.

Yes, even your Baptist institution builds heavily upon Constantine, even though you are not yet seeing it.

Let's stick to finding this gospel of wolves. Using hind sight we should easily be able to find it historically.

Jim

 

[trying2understand]

Originally posted by jimraboin:
Ron,

The reason I continually reference Constantine is because he is the founder of all institutional Gentile Christianity. The doctrines, creeds, system of governance etc...come from his Council of Nicaea.

Yes, even your Baptist institution builds heavily upon Constantine, even though you are not yet seeing it.

Let's stick to finding this gospel of wolves. Using hind sight we should easily be able to find it historically.

Jim

Why do want to just gloss over your prior posts?

Jot down and remember this. Constantine claims their conclusions were not rash or random...though some sat in "suppressed silence". Consider further.

You thought that this was very important; so important that you wanted us to "jot it down". I would like to see your address this.

No need to tell you that this anti Jewish hatred now Catholic foundation is not from God. Thus, we have clearly shown that "all error" was not removed from the Council. Was it? No. This is clearly a wolverine gospel. A gospel of hate and deception.

Did you look into Phelp's words? Doesn't justice call for equal application of standards? Are you willing to say that the gospel espoused by Phelps is also a wolverine gospel?

I'm sorry, but I would like you to support your prior assertions first.

BTW, did anyone else catch it?

"Yes, even your Baptist institution builds heavily upon Constantine, even though you are not yet seeing it."

Freudian slip? Movement of the Spirit?

Ron

 

[suzanne]

Just a little information about the animosity that the Jews and Christians have against the Messianic Jews.

The Messianics did not help with the fight during the war in which the temple was destroyed (70AD I think). After this war the Jewish nation was very fragmented.

The Gentile church was building momentum. The Jews were writing down their laws to counteract the writings from the Christians. Politically it was advantagous for the Gentiles to organize the church and gain power through conformity. Anything outside of this conformed orthodox view was seen as the enemy.

The Messiancs were viewed by the Jews as not fully Jewish because they claimed Yeshua as Messiah, plus the history of them not fighting in the civil war.

The Gentiles didn't like the Messiancs, because, even though they believed in Jesus as the Messiah, they still kept their traditions and kept Torah. This unorthodox view did not fit with what developing in the church so the Messiancs were persecuted.

Constantine did not allow Messianic Jews to take part in the council at Nicaea because they were not considered Christians under the orthodox definition. Ironic isn't it?

This travesty may have it's foundation in the Roman Church, but there are many denomination and sects that have also done the same thing.

suzanne

 

[susanpet]

I have Catholic cousins that live in another state. They believe that as long as you believe "in something" you are alright.
I try to witness to them when I see them and they just want to change the subject.

There is one mediator between man and God and that is Jesus Christ, not Mary or some priest!

Do you Catholics here ever read a bible?

Susan

 

[CatholicConvert]

*sigh* More ignoramouses. Not a very good witness to the truth or the Catholic Faith I would say.

Susan....yes, we do read the Bible. Reading the Bible is what converted me to the Catholic Faith. When I read the Bible, when I study it, I find the Catholic Faith in it from Genesis to Revelations.

I do NOT find any reference in it, however, to a "rapture of the Church", "altar calls", "invitations to receive Jesus", "profession of faith", or other some such.

Don't you Baptists read the Bible?

Cordially in disagreement,

Brother Ed

 

[GraceSaves]

Originally posted by susanpet:
There is one mediator between man and God and that is Jesus Christ, not Mary or some priest!

I can't wait for the day when people actually read our tiresome posts on these matters and stop stating the obvious (obvious in that it's obviously not a Catholic belief and obvious that no Christian would believe otherwise).

 

[susanpet]

Name calling doesn't help .
I am not stupid. I know that you pray to Mary and confess your sins to a priest.

Lighting candles and the roseary are not in the bible either.

 

[trying2understand]

Originally posted by susanpet:
Name calling doesn't help .
I am not stupid. I know that you pray to Mary and confess your sins to a priest.

Lighting candles and the roseary are not in the bible either.

Susan, CatholicConvert wasn't referring to you. I believe that he was referring to your cousins if what you say concerning what they believe is accurate.

Perhaps, it may be productive to talk with them about it. They may mean something different than you are understanding.

Ron

 

[GraceSaves]

Originally posted by susanpet:
Name calling doesn't help .
I am not stupid. I know that you pray to Mary and confess your sins to a priest.

Lighting candles and the roseary are not in the bible either.

Look at what you say here, and what you said first:

"There is one mediator between man and God and that is Jesus Christ, not Mary or some priest!"

Praying to Mary does not add another mediator between God and man. It makes an intercessor between us and Christ, the same that we do for each other here on earth.

Confessing sins to a priest does not make a mediator between God and man, but between us and Christ. And while you may disagree on the interpretation, it's been shown time and time again that confession is Scripturally grounded, and that the priest is not forgiving your sins, but Christ is, through the priest's spoken words.

Don't try to change what you said to make it look like you didn't really say it.

 

[suzanne]

Can we get back to topic?

I know this forum is for other religions and doctrines and I assumed the conversation would be adult-like without the petty quibbling, name calling and spit balls.

And the religion bashing is very unbecoming of ladies and gentlemen as I hope you would all agree.

What do you think of the comments I made? True, false, didn't know, did know...don't care.

suzanne (putting aside her Emily Post voice)

[ September 12, 2002, 05:57 PM: Message edited by: suzanne ]

 

[CatholicConvert]

Susan dear --

I was calling yer cousins ignoramouses, and it is pretty clear by yer description that this is EXACTLY what they are!!

Which should be a SCANDAL to their bishops!! In fact, the bishops ought to be SURE that NNE in their diocese is unable to defend from Scripture the faith catholic.

NNE!!

And the fact that there are people who not only cannot, but who don't care to, should be scandalous.

It was people like this who kept me from being interested in the Catholic Church AT ALL when I was younger. After all, if Jesus is so UNIMPORTANT to you that you don't know anything about Him -- well, THAT is certainly unimpressive, isn't it?!?

No....no blood, no foul, okay? I was not referring to you, but I'd bet a dollar to a donut that you have thought the same thing of your cousins in the deepest part of yer heart!

Cordially in Christ,

Brother Ed

 

[jimraboin]

Originally posted by suzanne:
Just a little information about the animosity that the Jews and Christians have against the Messianic Jews.

The Messianics did not help with the fight during the war in which the temple was destroyed (70AD I think). After this war the Jewish nation was very fragmented.

The Gentile church was building momentum. The Jews were writing down their laws to counteract the writings from the Christians. Politically it was advantagous for the Gentiles to organize the church and gain power through conformity. Anything outside of this conformed orthodox view was seen as the enemy.

The Messiancs were viewed by the Jews as not fully Jewish because they claimed Yeshua as Messiah, plus the history of them not fighting in the civil war.

The Gentiles didn't like the Messiancs, because, even though they believed in Jesus as the Messiah, they still kept their traditions and kept Torah. This unorthodox view did not fit with what developing in the church so the Messiancs were persecuted.

Constantine did not allow Messianic Jews to take part in the council at Nicaea because they were not considered Christians under the orthodox definition. Ironic isn't it?

This travesty may have it's foundation in the Roman Church, but there are many denomination and sects that have also done the same thing.

suzanne

Good post Suzanne. Thank you for bringing this discussion back.

What I would like to add is that God built, established and confirmed his Body in Israel. Israel is the key. It doesn't matter what Gentiles thought. They were supposed to conform to the pattern God set up in Israel. Consider:

1 Thessalonians 2:14-16

For you, brothers, became imitators of God's churches in Judea, which are in Christ Jesus: You suffered from your own countrymen the same things those churches suffered from the Jews, who killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets and also drove us out. They displease God and are hostile to all men in their effort to keep us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved. In this way they always heap up their sins to the limit. The wrath of God has come upon them at last.

Thoughts?

Jim

 

[trying2understand]

Well, Jim, let's look at the practices of today's Messianic Jews, who by the way believe that they are practicing the same as Jewish Christians of the first century.

A majority of the Messianic congregations in the United States are "charismatic" (believing in tongues, healing, etc.)

Congregations typically call their leader a Rabbi.

They generally observe the Shabbat (Sabbath), starting at sundown on Friday night.

Many continue the practice of circumcision of male newborns.

Many Messianic Jews keep the strict rabbinical kosher dietary laws.

They observe all of the traditional Jewish holidays, such as Passover, Succoth, Shavuot, etc.

Tell me, Jim, could Messianic Jews who believe in tongues, obeserve the Sabbath starting at sundown on Friday, call their local religious leader Rabbi, keep kosher, circumcise their children as a religious custom, and observe all of the traditional Jewish holidays, join your little church without changing their beliefs or customs?

Be careful how you answer. Someone may judge the spirit of your church.

Ron

 

[suzanne]

Originally posted by jimraboin:

What I would like to add is that God built, established and confirmed his Body in Israel. Israel is the key. It doesn't matter what Gentiles thought. They were supposed to conform to the pattern God set up in Israel.

Can you say this in a different way?
(sorry, must be thick today)
Obviously they did not conform and threw out those who did

Please note.
II Thess. So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings (traditions) we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.

1 Thessalonians 2:14-16

For you, brothers, became imitators of God's churches in Judea, which are in Christ Jesus: You suffered from your own countrymen the same things those churches suffered from the Jews, who killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets and also drove us out. They displease God and are hostile to all men in their effort to keep us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved. In this way they always heap up their sins to the limit. The wrath of God has come upon them at last.

The church in Thessalonia was being persecuted on both sides, by the Jews and by the pagans which they had converted from. But they were still continuing in what they had been taught.