Grace: potential or actual II

[Skandelon]

Aaron, can you please explain how your conclusions regarding a good tree being unable to bear bad fruit and a bad tree unable to bear good fruit is consistent with a saint who sins and obeys?

Does the saint switch from being a good tree, when he chooses to obey and resist temptation, and then later to a bad tree when he chooses to disobey and fall into temptation? Or does a saint remain a "bad tree" who God irresistibly makes do good (bear good fruit) on some occasions and not others?

Please explain.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

The Calvinistic answer: God will choose to show mercy to a select few people and damn the rest to hell from birth due to their being represented by Adam in the Fall...

Well thats a totally inaccurate statement....:laugh:

 

[Robert Snow]

Here's the conclusion of the matter. Adam's choice to sin was not free. He was corrupted, and could do no other. There is no such thing as "Arminian free will."

So then God ordained that Adam sin, in fact your Calvinism says the God wanted Adam to sin; God wanted sin to exist!

Any you wonder why we say Calvinism is the gross error!

BTW, I don't think David had read the Gospels; so I doubt he understood about lust in his heart being a sin.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Let me ask you three, Aaron, Rippon, and P4T, if Jesus does not love everyone, how do you know he loves you? If Jesus did not die for everyone, how do you know he died for you? If Jesus did not intend to save everyone, how do you know he intended to save you?

thats a simple answer....but of course you didnt ask me:smilewinkgrin:

But since they all believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.... obviously Jesus loves them & they are to be counted among the elect. good work boys:thumbs:

 

[Winman]

I want to know how Calvinists KNOW they are elect. Is there a list somewhere and you look for your name?

If Jesus does not love every single person, and if Jesus did not die for every person, it would be impossible to know you are one of the fortunate elect.

Saying you believe proves nothing, Calvin taught that God gives many a false faith called Evanescent Grace that is so real that a person can truly believe themselves saved and be utterly lost.

How in the world can you believe Jesus died for you if you do not believe he died for every man? It is impossible.

 

[Skandelon]

The Calvinistic answer: God will choose to show mercy to a select few people and damn the rest to hell from birth due to their being represented by Adam in the Fall...

Well thats a totally inaccurate statement....:laugh:

How is that inaccurate? Maybe you just don't like how your dogma sounds when put in terms that aren't sugar coated with all the cool sounding theological jargon?

 

[Skandelon]

I want to know how Calvinists KNOW they are elect. Is there a list somewhere and you look for your name?

Calvinists believe that if they genuinely believe and repent then that is proof of God's election of them.

 

[Rippon]

BTW, I don't think David had read the Gospels; so I doubt he understood about lust in his heart being a sin.

Where do you get your ideas Robert? You claim that since David came before the Gospels were written he didn't know about the sin of lust? At the very least he would have known of Job 31:1. And would have been able to extrapolate the 10th Commandment.

 

[Winman]

Calvinists believe that if they genuinely believe and repent then that is proof of God's election of them.

Believe what? That Jesus died for some men? Which men? How do you know you are one of those he died for?

How can you believe something doubtful?

 

[Skandelon]

Believe what? That Jesus died for some men? Which men? How do you know you are one of those he died for?

How can you believe something doubtful?

Do you really believe in Jesus? Did you repent and really mean it? If you answered "yes" then, according to a Calvinist, you can KNOW you are of the elect, because otherwise you wouldn't have believed or repented. It's really that simple.

 

[Winman]

Do you really believe in Jesus? Did you repent and really mean it? If you answered "yes" then, according to a Calvinist, you can KNOW you are of the elect, because otherwise you wouldn't have believed or repented. It's really that simple.

That's believeing in your own faith, not Jesus.

Biblical faith is believeing a promise of God. How can you believe a promise not given you?

Could Lot simply convince himself if he believed he would be the father of many nations? No, because no such promise was given him. Abraham on the other hand could believe, because God made this promise to him personally.

Do you see the difference?

 

[Aaron]

That's believeing in your own faith, not Jesus.

Biblical faith is believeing a promise of God. How can you believe a promise not given you?

Could Lot simply convince himself if he believed he would be the father of many nations? No, because no such promise was given him. Abraham on the other hand could believe, because God made this promise to him personally.

Do you see the difference?

With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God.

 

[Rippon]

Scripture Cited From 2011 NIV

I want to know how Calvinists KNOW they are elect. Is there a list somewhere and you look for your name?

Silly boy. If one is a genuine Christian they are one of the Lord's elect.

Have you ever read 2 Peter 1:10? : "Therefore,my brothers and sisters,make very effort to confirm your calling and election..."

If Jesus does not love every single person, and if Jesus did not die for every person, it would be impossible to know you are one of the fortunate elect.

What a completely shallow way of looking at things. What about the vast majority of the human race that in your belief system, Christ has died for. Where are they? Yeah,Hell. What a confidence you must have being sure you are covered because everyone else has been covered also --even those ending up in Hell.

 

[Skandelon]

That's believeing in your own faith, not Jesus.

Biblical faith is believeing a promise of God. How can you believe a promise not given you?

Could Lot simply convince himself if he believed he would be the father of many nations? No, because no such promise was given him. Abraham on the other hand could believe, because God made this promise to him personally.

Do you see the difference?

Winman, you have a different view for the nature of faith, but I'll let you take it up with them...

 

[Robert Snow]

Where do you get your ideas Robert? You claim that since David came before the Gospels were written he didn't know about the sin of lust? At the very least he would have known of Job 31:1. And would have been able to extrapolate the 10th Commandment.

Do you know for sure that David had a copy of the book of Job?

 

[convicted1]

No difference at all. And you didn't answer the question. When did David become guilty of adultery with Bathsheba? When he lusted after her from his rooftop or when he took her into his bed chamber.

Psst! I know how Christ would answer. :smilewinkgrin:

Another "flaw in the 'slaw" with this story here, Brother. David was in a "sin cursed" body because of Adam's deed in the Garden. 'Nother thing, David didn't have the indwelling of the Spirit at this time, it only moved upon him, at certain times.

Of course the obvious(and only answer) is that he committed adultery with her before the deed, because Jesus stated to even lust in your heart is adultery. Now that I have answered your question, please answer mine.

What sin did Adam commit to cause his heart to be corrupted prior to eating the fruit?

If Adam's heart was corrupt, eventhough he was made perfect, then did God place the sin there(I think you believe this, but aren't willing to openly confess it on here)? Did satan place it there? Or did it come by "Elfin Magic"?


There has to have been some outside influence to cause Adam's corruption, Brother Aaron. God told him if he ate of THAT tree, he would surely die. Now, if his heart was corrupted before eating the fruit, then the fruit had no effect on him whatsoever. So which is it? I want what YOU believe, and not a "smoke screen" by twisting a few scriptures. Give me YOUR belief, in YOUR words.

No more beating around the bush........

 

[Winman]

Winman, you have a different view for the nature of faith, but I'll let you take it up with them...

My view of faith is according to scripture.

Heb 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.

Faith is simply taking God at his word. You have to begin with a PROMISE of God to have Biblical faith.

How can a non-Cal have faith he is saved when he comes to Christ? Because he understands (correctly) that this promise applies to him. But anyone who believes in Unconditional Election and Limited Atonement cannot believe this, because they do not know who is elected (or why), and they do not know who Jesus died for. How can you have confidence in that? The best you can do is hope you are one of the elect.

 

[quantumfaith]

Let me ask you three, Aaron, Rippon, and P4T, if Jesus does not love everyone, how do you know he loves you? If Jesus did not die for everyone, how do you know he died for you? If Jesus did not intend to save everyone, how do you know he intended to save you?

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[quantumfaith]

Aaron, God putting the tree of knowledge of good and evil was not a temptation, but an opportunity to freely choose God. Love requires choice. You are likely married, do you want your wife to love you because she chooses to freely do so, or would you force her and compel her to love you? If God had not put that forbidden tree in the garden, there would have been no choice.

God in his foreknowledge knew what man would do, and had already provided a way to prove his love for us, not as perfect persons, there is no difficulty in that. But he loved us when we chose to reject him and turn from him. Now, that is real love.

God has already chosen to love all of us, he is simply waiting for us to choose to love him. Without free will and choice there is no love.

It was free will that enabled Satan and all of us to sin, but it was necessary, else there could be no real love.

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Silly boy. If one is a genuine Christian they are one of the Lord's elect.

Have you ever read 2 Peter 1:10? : "Therefore,my brothers and sisters,make very effort to confirm your calling and election..."



What a completely shallow way of looking at things. What about the vast majority of the human race that in your belief system, Christ has died for. Where are they? Yeah,Hell. What a confidence you must have being sure you are covered because everyone else has been covered also --even those ending up in Hell.

Oh man Rip.....you nailed it!:love2::thumbs::applause: