Grace

If a person is spiritually 'unconscious' without regeneration, then hell (eternal punishment) is meaningless.

If a person is spiritually 'unconscious' without regeneration, then God's call to the sinner in Isaiah 1:18-20 is meaningless and nonsense.

Personally, I have a very difficult time thinking God speaks nonsense.

 

That is carrying the analogy beyond its limits.

BTW, Hey Helen, how you doin?

Me too. That's why I accept the responsibility of man and also the election of God. God said both.

The Bible actually goes beyond 'unconscious' to... spiritually dead... which would likewise make hell meaningless no matter what you think causes them to be regenerated.

I won't go on too long but you are interesting in a way because if I am not mistaken you went from being calvinistic to being arminian.

The basic question that arminians can't answer for me and my first objection to that whole line of interpretation is: Why do some choose to accept Christ while others don't?

I am not looking for some shallow "because of free-will" answer. I am looking for the prime motive... the answer one gives to the last "Why?"

I think it has to basically come down to a choice between God putting good will into us through a regenerated nature or else it comes from some human goodness independent from God... making some the deserving objects of God's favor.

Most non-calvinists won't even attempt to give me a direct answer. Before I could even begin to consider their point of view, I must understand what they think it is within the person that ultimately causes them to believe.

As an analogy, we agree that God created the world and many things naturally flowed from that initial "God said" series. We don't argue that God shouldn't have done it knowing that people would be condemned by rejecting Him. God was perfectly within His rights to create the world.

If He could act sovereignly to create the world while knowing that a direct result would be that He would have to punish many people with hell, why do non-calvinists balk so much at the notion that the only reason anyone believes is because God initiates their salvation through regenerating their spirit?

 

It is required of man, once to die, but God gives us dying grace.

He gives us grace for many things, but not until we need it...

 

I balk so much because it is clearly not what the Word teaches. I do not judge the Bible based on the C/A debate. I judge the C/A debate based on the Bible. All I need is one clear example of that notion being in conflict, no verses out of context, but verses dealing with this very subject.

Example:

Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

You would have me believe that this verse actually means:

Joh 3:36 He that hath everlasting life: believeth on the Son...

Example 2:

Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Would then be:

Joh 3:15 That whosoever have eternal life should not perish, but believe in him.

Example 3:

Joh 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Would then be:

Joh 20:31 But these are written, that ye might have life through his name. and that having life, ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God;

 

Artimaeus, I likewise view the C/A debate from what scripture says. In fact, it was the scripture that left me totally dissatisfied with the explanations given by non-calvinists.

All of the scriptures you cite deal with the means of salvation. The "through faith" portion of Eph 2:8-9. But we can't just deal with half the subject.

You are dealing with the "what" someone does... not the "why". Election and regeneration are the "why" that leads to the "what".

The only other option for "why" is that man possesses the goodness to make a choice that God considers meritorious. This is clearly contrary to scripture.

BTW, you mentioned another reason I rejected arminianism. They persistently use scripture out of its immediate or else expanded context.

This is "what" happens.

This is "why" it ultimately happened.

....in context.

 

Actually, Scott, I was talking about the "when". You said that a person can only believe AFTER they have been regenerated and I am saying that regeneration, salvation, sanctification, righteousness and all of the things which accompany salvation cannot take place till after we believe. I am not saying this because it is logical or makes sense or even that that is the way it seems to me or a Calvinist or an Arminian. I am saying that because that is the way the Bible phrases it. Belief and THEN salvation.

God does not seem to be very keen on explaining why He does the things that He does. He does expect us to believe Him. He does tell us "what" He wants us to believe. He does tell us "when" He gives us salvation. He just doesn't tell us all of the "whys".

Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

This is "what" happens. </font>[/QUOTE]That's right. They don't become the Sons of God first and then believe/receive.

This is "why" it ultimately happened.

....in context. [/QB][/QUOTE]

No offense intended, but I do not see the "why" that you were looking for. The "why" God chose some and not others.

Joh 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

In verse 11 He is talking about the Jews.
In verse 12 He is talking about Christians.
In verse 13 He is contrasting the two.

People were born Jews.
People became Jews by adoption.
People became Jews by decision of the authorities.
People became Jews by conversion (an act of their will where they chose to become Jew and it was so)
God did not have to actively participate in any of this. You could become a Jew just because you wanted to.

The contrast is that you cannot become a Christian by any of these means. God must actively participate and by that I mean that He must personally accomplish this act of making you a son.

You cannot be born a Christian.
You cannot become a Christian by adoption.
You cannot become a Christian by a decision of the authorities.
You cannot become a Christian by conversion (an act of your will where you choose to become a Christian and it is so). You cannot choose it if God is not offering it to you personally.

God says that only those who receive Him, only those who believe Him have the right to become the sons of God. He does not even hint that only the sons of God have the right to receive Him or believe Him.

I am enjoying our discussion, Scott, even if we continue to disagree.

 

Actually, Scott, I was talking about the "when". You said that a person can only believe AFTER they have been regenerated and I am saying that regeneration, salvation, sanctification, righteousness and all of the things which accompany salvation cannot take place till after we believe. I am not saying this because it is logical or makes sense or even that that is the way it seems to me or a Calvinist or an Arminian. I am saying that because that is the way the Bible phrases it. Belief and THEN salvation.</font>[/QUOTE] But it does not say that belief precedes election nor regeneration.

Salvation takes place when one believes. Belief takes place when one is regenerated. It is much less a matter of time than priority.

God does not seem to be very keen on explaining why He does the things that He does. He does expect us to believe Him. He does tell us "what" He wants us to believe. He does tell us "when" He gives us salvation. He just doesn't tell us all of the "whys".</font>[/QUOTE] He tells us this "why".

This was given in direct response to why God chose Jacob and rejected Esau. Note that it says absolutely nothing about God's choice being based on or preceeded by human "belief".

This is "why" it ultimately happened.

....in context. </font>[/QUOTE]No offense intended, but I do not see the "why" that you were looking for. The "why" God chose some and not others.[/quote] You're serious? The "why" is the will of God and specifically NOT the will of man.

He doesn't have to hint. He came right out and explained "why" these attained the right to become the sons of God... they were born of the will of God.

Thanks. Me too. You have been straight forward, honest, and respectful... which is all too often not the case in this particular debate.

Oh, and you haven't accused me of lying yet or put words in my mouth. I really appreciate that.

You have actually made me think and consider my position rather than correcting your perception of it.

 

We may very well be defining the absolute shortest period of time known to man. However, belief must take place first. If regeneration takes place first and then belief and then salvation you are stuck with a person who, at least for a very brief period of time, is regenerated but not yet saved. I believe that belief happens and then salvation, regeneration, sanctification, justification, etc. happpen immediately. I am even willing to say that that they all may happen at the same time. God does not need to wait any length of time and can bestow all of these things at the same instant of belief.

(Oh, boy, I'm going to get myself in trouble here, but here goes.)

It does not say that God predestinated us to be Christians. It says, if I may editorialize a little, since He forknew that Scott was going to become a Christian that, therefore, He predestinated Scott to be conformed to the image of His Son. He predestinated that saved people would be conformed.

(Same thing, same trouble)

What He chose was that we, us Christians would be holy and without blame. Don't take the first part of the verse without the last part. That would be your basic definition of "out of context".

Having predestinated us Christians to the adoption of children. Something unheard of in the Old Testament. For the first time followers of God would not merely be servants but sons.

As well as Moses and Pharaoh, Abraham and Sarah, Rebecca and Isaac, and Jews and Gentiles.

Absolutely true, God can deal with humanity in any manner He sees fit. It is His option and His will.

My bad, I thought we were trying to figure out "why" it would be His will to do that. I agree that it is specifically NOT the will of man. Let me try and explain what I am trying to say. Play along for a second. Go to your front door and open it, I'll wait...Good, your back. Was I there? No, huh. Okay, now we have established that no act of your will is sufficient to cause me to be there or come in. Now when Jesus is "knocking at our door" and we go to answer the door there is no act of our will that will make Him be there or come in. It is a dead act with literally no power. I cannot just decide to become a Christian. My will is just as useless then as it is when I go to my door and no one is there.

That seems askew to me. How can those that were born attain the right to be born? They received Him or they believed on His name and he gave THEM the right (ability, privilege, capacity, competency, freedom, authority, jurisdiction, liberty, power, strength - From Strong's) to become the sons of God.

I hear ya.

I called somebody on this board a liar when i first joined the board. I thought I was being diplomatic when I said they were disingenuous. I thought they were being less than honest with themselves and me. I did not get a bad reaction from them but boy, oh, boy, have I felt guilty about it ever since. As a result, I have tried very hard to write what I think but in a manner that I would like to be spoken to.

It has caused me to study a little bit harder as well. I don't think it could get more constructive than that.

 

i was recently watching a sci-fi show when predestination jumped into my mind, the sci-fi dealt with time travel.

when i began to think about what God has said about Himself, and it occured to me that God has to exist outside of spacetime, as He is an Unlimited quantity and spacetime is limited. which then made me remember the for God time is irrealvent. He is non-corporeal, no-linear (in time), and therefore God has to "exist" in all times at once.

therefore predestinatin and choice are no problems for God, as he is not bound by the law of causality.

If God exists outside of Time, then God could easily "predestine" those who choose him, i think this whole C/A debate forgets that God is NOT bound by the laws of physics.


anyway i am more on the calvinist side than the armenian but i clearly think that both can be true due to God's being outside of spacetime.

anyway i was just thinking, and those were the "odd" thoughts


thankyou and God Bless

 

Perhaps someone can explain to me what the Southern Baptist Conference is and what they do and what is their history.

Thank you!

 

Excellent analogy of Jesus standing at the door and knocking. For some reason roformed theology thinks that if man opens the door, man must have put Jesus at the door, too. Opening the door is a display of both man's given free will and God's sovereignty.

 

We may very well be defining the absolute shortest period of time known to man. However, belief must take place first. If regeneration takes place first and then belief and then salvation you are stuck with a person who, at least for a very brief period of time, is regenerated but not yet saved.</font>[/QUOTE] Same problem for what you believe. Again, it isn't so much time as priority. With regard to "time", the post about God operating both in and out of time is relevant. He has already decreed that we will be saved in linear time from outside linear time.

Can't work and maintain any semblance of respect for God's election (even under the extensions you tried to protest with) or the meaning of the word "grace". If salvation is bestowed in response to a decision to believe by a person independent of God's special and particular prompting then God is not acting in grace but rather recognizing and rewarding merit.

Or bestow all in the same instance but premised on His miracle of regeneration by timeless election.

(Oh, boy, I'm going to get myself in trouble here, but here goes.)</font>[/QUOTE] You obviously know the weaknesses in your arguments. You have done nothing but expand His election to include its necessary ends.

I won't take the time to point out the weaknesses point by point.

First off. As convenient as the passage in Revelation is for evangelism, it is often taken out of context. It was written in the context of correcting the Asian churches... not individual salvation.

Second. It is a critical act of will as to whether you answer the knock or not. Your example assumes that the "knocker" neither knows whether you will answer nor has power to cause you to answer.... other than to continue knocking until you do answer... in other words "irresistable grace".

Anyone who has ever had undesired solicitation at their door can attest to the fact that the decision about whether to open the door or not is a "live" act with literal power...

So your are saying that Christ doesn't knock on every door? You're beginning to sound like a 4-pointer.

It has caused me to study a little bit harder as well. I don't think it could get more constructive than that. </font>[/QUOTE]Amen and God bless.

 

Scott, I could not agree more with that statement. The phrase, "independent of God's special and particular prompting" makes all of the difference. There is no recognizing and rewarding of merit if grace is offered to all men (Hitler the same as my own dear departed mother).

2 Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

God chooses us through our believing the truth, we do not believe through His choosing.

Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Those who come to God MUST believe or they cannot come to Him.

1 Ti 1:16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

Believe on Him TO life everlasting. Not life everlasting TO believe on Him. This is the pattern throughout the New Testament.

2 Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2 Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2 Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Not receiving the truth is the reason they are not saved and not believing is the reason they are damned.

Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

God tells us His "timeline" and it is not outside of the space-time continum. BEFORE faith came we were lost, AFTER faith came we are not. Regeneration does not initiate faith, faith is the focal point through which God initiates regeneration.

1 Co 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

He saves them that believe.

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

The Bible speaks often about getting right with God and in the vast majority of times it is clearly given in an order of belief first and then salvation. It does not seem reasonable for a few verses to be allowed to alter the meaning of so many others.

Act 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

I know you believe these verses, I would never claim that you don't. However, I find it impossible to understand HOW anyone could read these verses and many, many more like them and conclude that regeneration could take place before belief.

Joh 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

 

This would include believing and having faith, If ABSOLUTELY NOTHING is required. This is self defeating and goes against the biblical model for salvation. Faith and belief are not works and are commanded.

 

Scott, I could not agree more with that statement. The phrase, "independent of God's special and particular prompting" makes all of the difference. There is no recognizing and rewarding of merit if grace is offered to all men (Hitler the same as my own dear departed mother).</font>[/QUOTE] There is if the choice to accept is rewarded while the refusal to accept is punished.

Read it again. God chose to salvation. The salvation was through (by this method) sanctification and belief.

No disagreement at all. This scripture has nothing to do with why men ultimately come. It doesn't say what initiates the faith and belief.

Absolutely. And but for the grace of God, we all would follow that same path.

So you don't believe in God's foreknowledge? So if I show you scripture that specifically says that believers were chosen before the foundation of the world... you will accept that timeline and interpret the Galatians text by it?

The natural man cannot understand the things of the spirit for they are spiritually discerned. IOW's, unless God changes a man's "natural" spirit, he cannot believe this foolish preaching.

The method for something isn't the same as its cause. A football coach calls a play. An announcer can describe the play in detail without once mentioning that it was all caused by the coach's putting a plan in the mind of the players.

That's the problem. We have to accept all of scripture and demand that our interpretations conform to all of it.

Those "few verses" cannot be ignored. Verses that answer "why" salvation occurs need not be interpretted as in conflict with those that describe "how".

Because these verses deal with the human perspective of "how" things happen... and not the divine perspective of "why" they happen.

That is a critical difference. I accept "how" the Bible says salvation works as well as "why" the Bible says it occurs. Ultimately, non-calvinists have to answer the question: If an individual's salvation is not ultimately caused by God's good will and action toward that individual in a special, effective way then why did they choose "good" over "evil"?

It is either by grace- God ultimately caused it or else by merit- man ultimately chose it strictly out of his own goodness.