Grace

I believe scripture is clear on this subject.

Romans 10:14 "How then shall they call upon Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? (v.15) And how shall they preach unless they are sent?" The Greek is clear that each question must be answered in a negative. It is clear that proclamation of the Gospel is the means that God has ordained to save men.

I Corinthians 1:21 "For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe." Again, this is God's plan to bring salvation to "those who believe".

There is no salvation without the gospel. Even though He doesn't need men to proclaim (Jesus said the rocks would cry out if men kept silent), God did ordain the message (Christ crucified) and the means (proclamation of the gospel, and the messengers (Matt. 28:18-20: believers) to bring His children unto Himself.

We are communicating quite well now. I hope we can continue.

Let me ask you this. Do you believe God revealed Himself to every person on the planet (and continues to do so), at some time prior to their death, and told them the story of His Son, so they could accept or reject Him according to their own "freewill".

 

JD -

THe bible clearly says that God sent his message of grace to all men. The lost hear, and reject.
(ALSO in the bible. They perish because they refused the truth)
The saved hear and respond.

 

Scott,

I ran your words by several people, purely from a "tell me, using human logic and english grammar what this statement means."

HANDS DOWN every single person said, "He is saying that God makes people chooes hell."

And that is my problem with your arguement.

You keep trying to reject that phrasing because in your own heart you KNOW that God does not do that. However, no matter how hard you deny it, to say that all powerful, all knowing, all Holy God only calls to some people, or that He only allows some to respond to His call is to accuse the almighty of deliberately and intentionally causing others to sin.

Obviously you KNOW that is blasphemous or you wouldn't get so rabid when its put into that phrasing, but that IS what you are saying.

You cannot say, "God "freed this group to accept Christ," without communicating the unspoken, "and he didn't free that group to accept Christ." Which communicates in the end that you and others like you believe that God almighty deliberately made certain men reject Christ.

And on that note - I'm done with you because I believe, with all my heart and soul, that you are blaspheming the Holy Spirit and if you can accuse God Himself of forcing men into rejection of Christ, then nothing I say will ever open your eyes. Only God can do that.

JD - the same is for you.

If you can accuse God of causing first sin.
If you can accuse God of causing ANY sin.
If you can accuse God of "not allowing" men to choose Christ - I give you over to your false teachings.

 

Very well said Texas.

 

TexasSky

I have tried to keep the focus on what scripture says and means.

Your focus is always on twisting both what scripture says and what others say about scripture. You then accuse us of believing all sorts of nonsense, so that we must defend ourselves against your wicked attacks, rather than focusing on scripture.

After spending all this time trying to communicate with you on this subject, I understand more fully the words of the Apostle Paul:

"But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man but to remain quiet. (v.13) For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. (v.14) And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being quited deceived, fell into transgression."

You have been quite decieved, fallen into transgression, and you are quite hateful in your words.

I pray God interfers in your life sometime soon, so that you may see your error and repent.

 

JD -

I don't twist scriptures.

I'm simply put them up on this board.

You and Scott and a few others are the ones who go, "But that can't mean what you say."
The bible very clearly says that God created Adam and Eve in God's image.
The bible clearly says that God's word in Eden was perfect.
The bible clearly says that God said they could eat anything except the fruit of one tree.
The bible clearly shows Satan sliding in and telling them to ignore God.
The bible clearly shows God telling them that because they listened to Satan instead of God sin and death entered the world.

The bible does NOT say, "Adam sinned because God wanted him to so God could fulfill His glory."
The bible does NOT say, "God is the initial cause of sin."

YOU and SCOTT are the ones going, "Well, since God is all knowing and all powerful and Adam sinned it had to be God's will for Adam to sin."

I'm pointing at scripture and saying, "That is NOT what it says, stop blaming God." YOU PEOPLE are going, "I can't grasp why He didn't prevent it so I have to assume He WANTED it."

Neither of you seem to be able to grasp that God can ~know~ and ~allow~ without ~causing~.

So - you blame God.

Then when you are called on blaming God, you back up and scream, "No, no, no. I didn't blame God!" But when we go back to Adam you say, "Oh, well, if God didn't WANT it to happen it wouldn't have happened."

So in the end - you ARE blaming God.

Which is ludicrous and it is NOT biblical.

So, please, don't sit there and tell me that man has no freewill at all, while trying to say you don't blame God for man's sin.

And as to your prayers JD.
I've known Christ for over 40 years. He's walked with me daily. He's saved me from cancer - in miraculous ways - four times in my life. He saved my husband and children from, what the police, EMT's, paramedics and engineers from Ford tell me was "certain death" given the circumstances. He "finds my car keys in the morning." When my pets are sick, I talk to the Lord about it, and instead of a $400 vet bill, I end up with a healthy pet that suddenly stops throwing up like crazy. When my bank balance is on zero - I get a "surprise" like a call from someone asking me to watch their house for $100 or an unexpected gift from people I haven't heard from in ages. I talk to Him daily, and I pray daily. I wittness to others daily.

I've got a good relationship with God, JD. I don't blame my mistakes on Him, but I ~do~ ask him for forgiveness for my sins.

Ironically, you and Scott, and I agree on ONE thing. I am here, preaching against your utter nonsense that God only ~allows~ a few people to come to Christ and that God ~causes~ men to reject Christ because that is God's will.

Ironic isn't it? By MY theory - if I'm wrong - its my fault. By YOUR theory - if I'm wrong - Its God's fault.

 

Did God "allow" Adam to sin?

The only answer is yes.

Then is God the "author" of sin?

The only answer is no.

But is God "resposible" for man's sin by allowing it?

The only answer is yes.

What is the solution?

God accepts resposibility and PROVIDES the solution in Christ.

GOD HIMSELF TOOK OUR SIN AWAY ON THE CROSS.

Does man have any excuses that it is Gods' "fault" that we sin?

The only answer is no.

God now calls ALL men everywhere to repent and believe the Good News that He has dealt with the sin problem and all we gotta do is "Call upon the name of the Lord and 'we' shall be saved."

Can either Calvinism or Arminianism fully expound on this mystery?

The ONLY answer is NO NO NO, A THOUSAND TIMES NO!!

In HIS service;
Jim

 

TexasSky

Again, you twist scripture and what we have said about scripture. It is an exceedingly wicked thing that you continue to do.

You believe God communicated directly (and continues to do so) with every person throughout history (that doesn't have a Christian witness) to tell them the story of Jesus so they can accept or reject according to their own "freewill".

That is completely made up, absolutely no biblical basis, and in fact, contradicts scripture.

Why do you hold to it? Because it allows you to continue to misunderstand and then twist the meaning of passages like Titus 2:11. It allows you to create a god in an image that is pleasing to you, because you cannot stand the thought that God might actually have "freewill" and get to decide the fate of His creation.

Your focus is always on yourself and what you do for salvation. Our focus should be on God.

You have been deceived.

 

TexasSky,

If God saves people without them hearing the Gospel, then why do we need to send missionaries?

Your belief is a direct contradiction to Romans 10:14-15.

 

No. It is Bible speak.

If I cause my son to go to bed at 9 pm that does not mean that I cause your child to stay up until 11 pm. Get it? I can be "not guilty" of your child staying up too late while getting "glory" for ensuring that my child gets rest that will make him healthy.

No. It isn't because you have failed to account for the responsibility of the bondage. You want me to say that God is responsible for sin. I refuse.

I have given you illustrations and explained this the best that I can... If you aren't even going to try and understand my perspective then just say so. I think I do understand yours. I used to think that way as well... until I found that it could not account for scripture as well as the system commonly called calvinism.

If my brother is in jail and I go bail him out, that does not logically lead to the conclusion that I forced everyone else to commit a crime. But this is the exact line of logic you have tried to apply to my beliefs.

YOU'RE SIMPLY WRONG.

If you by your own free will choices are responsible for those things then you have no gripe for lacking the freedom... and it takes an act of grace on the part of someone else to relieve you of the circumstances.

Wrong.

That is no more valid than to say that if you are not free to choose whether to be conceived or not, you are forced into choosing hell if God didn't foreknow that you would accept salvation.

If you apply fair balances, these questions trap you, not me.

I reject your ridiculous, unbiblical premises and have shown you why repeatedly.

Yes and those who followed God were elect from the foundation of the world just like the scriptures declare.

The difference between your position and ours is that you accept the scriptures that concern man's will, choice, and responsibility then try to explain away that parts about God's sovereignty and will concerning salvation. We accept both concepts and attempt to explain how they fit together.

 

Actually it is what Jesus and Paul taught. Calvin was just one person who tried to systematize scriptural truth.

No TS. If that were the case, I would be like you- unable to answer your objections. I have repeatedly shown where the bias you are reading into my statements and beliefs does not apply.

The problem is your premise. You use a false premise then contend that it proves my position wrong.

My premise is scriptural: All men are guilty and responsible. None deserve a chance at salvation.

Your premise seems to be that all men have an equal right to salvation or else God is unjust. Your premise has no basis in scripture at all.

God is not guilty of the condemnation of anyone regardless of what He might graciously do for someone else... just like Jesus was not responsible for the continued death of all the other corpses when He resurrected Lazarus from the dead.

 

This is where most people get into trouble...

Accept the fact that none of us really know it all. And none of us will be able to, in this life at least, grasp all of God.

"IM grounded in scripture" - well good for you, there are a lot of people who claim similar things and insist God told them through scripture to blow up a building.

You are all splitting hairs and redefining God's word to suit your arguement. What if you were all right? OR all wrong?

See...youre never going to know this in this life.

FWIW, I agree with TS. My logical side and my relationship with God through Jesus leads me to believe the same thing. No other person should stoop to the lowly levels of name calling.

If you are right, you wont be able to prove it for a long, long time. Passing judgement on another is not really your responsibility and I have a good mind to believe that doing so is a slight insecurity with one's own faith when that kind of behavior starts. Reflect on you life.

There is nothing to defend. People can say what they want about God and His will and it is just hot air. God Is.

Lighten up.

 

The analogy is faulty.

There are two teams. You have already chosen the bad team and are playing for it wholeheartedly... then the master recruiter opens your eyes to the fact that you can only win by playing for the good team so you choose that team.

He isn't responsible on whit for those who continue to play for the bad team... especially since many of them know about the good team.

 

There are two teams. You have already chosen the bad team and are playing for it wholeheartedly... then the master recruiter opens your eyes to the fact that you can only win by playing for the good team so you choose that team.

Using Your Analogy - The bible says that the "Master Recruiter" tells EVERYONE that they need to play on the "good team." And some refuse to change sides.

 

Scott J

You said to TexasSky, "The problem is your premise. You use a false premise then contend that it proves my position wrong.

My premise is scriptural: All men are guilty and responsible. None deserve a chance at salvation.

Your premise seems to be that all men have an equal right to salvation or else God is unjust. Your premise has no basis in scripture at all.

God is not guilty of the condemnation of anyone regardless of what He might graciously do for someone else... just like Jesus was not responsible for the continued death of all the other corpses when He resurrected Lazarus from the dead."

Well said

 

emeraldctyangel

You said, "FWIW, I agree with TS. My logical side and my relationship with God through Jesus leads me to believe the same thing."

That is the continuing problem with your and TexasSky's position. You want to base it on something other than the clear teaching of scripture. When scripture contradicts what your "logical side" and your "relationship with God" say, then you ignore or twist or take scripture out of context to make it fit what you want it to believe. That is a dangerous deception.

If anyone tries to show the context of the scripture passages that contradict's these beliefs, then TexasSky unleases the most hateful, wicked assault I have every seen a person claiming to be a Christian launch. It is breathtaking to watch the leaps of logic that are made, and the total inability to deal honestly with the text of scripture in context.

I will have a candid, frank and civil discussion with anyone who wants to discuss the meaning of scripture.

 

Nope. Good try though.

You know factually that not everyone hears the gospel. Your response fails on simple, commonly known FACT.

Have you found your scripture yet that proves that everyone hears the gospel... that God is unfair unless everyone gets a "fair" chance?

I bet you haven't. But I bet that you can find man's sin and unworthiness of God's grace declared everywhere in scripture.

 

[ July 21, 2005, 02:06 PM: Message edited by: Scott J ]

 

deleted by request of poster

[ July 21, 2005, 05:50 PM: Message edited by: DHK ]