That was how God originally planned it. By your theory, every rebellion man ever made against God was actually because God intended for man to rebel?
Think it through TS.
Did God know that Satan would rebel and tempt Eve? Did God know that Eve would sin? Did God know that men would rebel? Which of these things do you contend that He didn't know?
He did know. Yet He still created Satan, Eve, and men.
No.
God intended to offer love to man, and God allowed man to obey or disobey. Just as most loving parents give their children the chance to stumble so they can learn to walk.
Are you saying that God did not know that Eve would sin?
If you are then please simply answer that one question and I will be done with you. Open theism is heresy.
I'm really sorry for you that you can't see that God is Omnipotent and omnisciencent enough to ALLOW men to love Him without forcing them.
I am really sorry for you tht you can't see that God is omnipotent and omniscient and gracious and merciful enough to free men from the bondage of their sin so that they will love Him.
Your argument is very much like seeing a man left to die tied to a post in the desert. Your savior would say, "I allow you to follow me to my cabin for food and water... but I won't force you by taking off the binding."
Or better yet, like approaching the grave of Lazarus and saying "Come on out if you want to but I won't force you to by performing the miracle of quickening your dead body".
The biggest problem with your theory is that it implies that God only loved some.
The biggest problem I have with your theory is that it requires human merit to accomplish salvation.
The second biggest problem I have with your view is that it is usually premised on the idea that the purpose of creation is the salvation of man. It isn't. The purpose of creation is to glorify God.
I don't understand it completely but God is glorified by displays of His justice and wrath as well as His mercy and grace.
We are told that God hates the unrighteous and specifically that He hated Esau. We have to deal with these facts.
But God also demonstrates love toward all men by the blessings He bestows through general grace.
You say, "Well, God loved you first!"
Of COURSE He did.
That's why He sent Christ.
But He didn't love me MORE than He loved the man who refused.
Then He must have chosen you because of your merit, right?
You keep trying to box Him in. Trying to reduce Him to human levels.
Nope. That would be you. I accept the fact that He can sovereignly save who He wishes whether I understand His purpose or not. You have judged His choice as unfair.
You can't imagine someone not loving someone who loved them first, so you just assume that it was all an act of random choice on God's part. That assumption really boils down to you saying God really ISN'T loving OR merciful. You make God into some kind of Casino Odds maker. The bible doesn't. The bible doesn't say, "Oh, He loves these, but not these. Without any reason at all."
All of this is false.... and another case of you putting arguments into my mouth because you cannot answer the real problems with your view.
If you want to know what I believe then please ask me rather than telling me.
That isn't what Christ says.
Christ says that God will leave the 99 to find the 1.
He also said that His sheep hear His voice and follow.
Christ says that God will kill the fatted calf for the lost son's return.
Did the man choose to have his father or did his father choose to have him? What made him a son to begin with?
The bible says God loved the WORLD. The sinless, hopeless world was GIVEN hope through His son.
In context, that same passage says that a man cannot enter the kingdom without being born again of the Spirit.
Do you REALLY believe that the same Christ who, while bleeding to death on Calvary pleaded with the Father, "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do." Would say, "Shrug, let that one burn in hell. I don't really care about that one?"
The same question is equally binding upon you.
You accuse me of believing that God forces people to be saved but presumably we agree that He
could force people to believe.
If He can but doesn't, does He not care?
THAT is the MAIN flaw in Clavinism.
It tries to LIMIT the scope of God's love for mankind.
Nope. It simply recognizes what scripture says and favors that over your concept of what would be fair of God if He loves the world/mankind.
A God that loves ENOUGH to give you freedom instead of enslavement.
I do believe He gives freedom. It is you that refuses to recognize that this is truly necessary.
A God that does not say, "Bow down before me and pretend to love me," but rather says, "I love you. Let me save you from your fate."
Wrong. Completely.
Until you know that God, you only know a tiny piece of God.
Until you deal with the flaws in your own view rather than attacking my views with false assertions and suggestions, you will be denying scriptural truth and thus know "only a tiny piece of God."
You have some gall suggesting that I only know a "tiny piece of God" because I disagree with YOU.
