Grace

[Scott J]

Originally posted by webdog:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> I had some thoughts on this topic yesterday.
If we do absoutly anything to earn or deserve grace from God, it is no longer free, it is no longer grace.

This would include believing and having faith, If ABSOLUTELY NOTHING is required. This is self defeating and goes against the biblical model for salvation. </font>[/QUOTE] Nope. Believing and faith are a result of God's grace, not the cause of it.

Why does salvation occur? Because God regenerates a spiritually dead sinner resulting in their willful belief and faith.

How does it occur? By repentance, confession, and faith.

Faith and belief are not works and are commanded.

If faith or belief are the direct result of a process of thought independent of regeneration then they are the result of "work" that we have done.

Only if they are the result of God's regenerating power are they not a result of "our" work.

God either does a work within us that causes us to accept Him or we do a work within ourselves that cause us Him to accept us.

 

[Artimaeus]

Originally posted by Scott J:
There is if the choice to accept is rewarded while the refusal to accept is punished.

Accepting what is offered is not a reward for accepting what is offered. It is just accepting what is offered. The refusal is not punished. The punishment was already there.

Read it again. God chose to salvation. The salvation was through (by this method) sanctification and belief.

I read it again.
1. God chose us to salvation.
2. God chose us to salvation through sanctification and belief.
These are two different sentences and mean two different things. If the first sentence were the end of it then we would not be having this discussion. The second sentence (The one in the Bible) says that it is through the method, means, process, of sanctification and belief that He has chosen to bring us salvation.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

No disagreement at all. This scripture has nothing to do with why men ultimately come. It doesn't say what initiates the faith and belief.</font>[/QUOTE]You keep mentioning the "why" as though believing is not a reason "why". God keeps telling us to believe and then we will be saved and your position keeps telling me that God supplies the saving and then I will be able to believe.

So you don't believe in God's foreknowledge?

Yes, I just don't buy into all of the "If...then..." conclusions that many require of that.

So if I show you scripture that specifically says that believers were chosen before the foundation of the world... you will accept that timeline and interpret the Galatians text by it?

Just as soon as I wake up from the shock.

[/QUOTE] The natural man cannot understand the things of the spirit for they are spiritually discerned. IOW's, unless God changes a man's "natural" spirit, he cannot believe this foolish preaching.[/QUOTE]

I agree that the natural man cannot, on his own, receive the things of God but that is not taking into account the conviction of the Holy Spirit. It is not necessary for the natural man to be fundamentally changed, regenerated, saved, in fact "born again" for the Holy Spirit to draw a person to God. It is this drawing that can bring a person to the point where they can come to belief.

[/QUOTE]That's the problem. We have to accept all of scripture and demand that our interpretations conform to all of it. [/QUOTE]

Ok, So, when are you going to make your interpretations conform to mine?

[/QUOTE]It is either by grace- God ultimately caused it or else by merit- man ultimately chose it strictly out of his own goodness. [/QUOTE]

This is the problem with human logic. We say it is either this way or that way and no other and not both. God says it a different way. He says it can be both. Not logical but truth, nonetheless.

(Totally off topic but on the topic of logic.)

Rev 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

It is not and yet is. Now that is totally illogical and a prime example of the impossible. If I made the statement that something "is" and "is not" at the same time I would be laughed at by anyone who wasn't familiar with that verse.

I do not find Calvinism compelling.
I do not find Arminianism compelling.
I do not find philosophies compelling.
I do not find logic compelling.

I find scripture compelling. I see belief as the entry point to salvation taught repeatedly. I never see regeneration taught as the entry point to belief.

 

[Scott J]

You keep mentioning the "why" as though believing is not a reason "why".

Believing isn't a why. It is a what. It is an effect. You don't even believe that someone suddenly believes with no prompting whatsoever. What is the source of that prompting? Why does it work on some but not on others? What is it about you and me that caused us to accept while others did not?

 

[Scott J]

I agree that the natural man cannot, on his own, receive the things of God but that is not taking into account the conviction of the Holy Spirit. It is not necessary for the natural man to be fundamentally changed, regenerated, saved, in fact "born again" for the Holy Spirit to draw a person to God. It is this drawing that can bring a person to the point where they can come to belief.

So you are basically saying that man has enough goodness within himself that after being drawn he can believe? He is not dead in trespasses and sin? He isn't spiritually blind but instead just needs glasses?

BTW, if you hold the belief you express above then why do you say all aren't drawn with the same force or given the opportunity to hear the gospel? If anyone given the right opportunity and drawing could believe and the Holy Spirit doesn't draw all people with equal clarity and force then doesn't that leave God guilty for not being fair with everyone?

I don't know if you realize it or not but you have come fairly close to calvinism with your statement about the Holy Spirit convicting but then create a huge problem for yourself. You have the Holy Spirit failing at something He sets out to do. You leave Him either not persuasive enough to convince the sinner or else lacking persistence.

 

[Artimaeus]

Originally posted by Scott J:
Believing isn't a why. It is a what. It is an effect.

I see your point. I was thinking along the lines of someone asking me "why" I thought I was going to heaven and I would say, "Because I am a believer".

Have you ever had a young child begin to ask you "why...?" and each time you answer, they just look at you and say,"Why? (to that answer)". This can only end with "because I said so!" or "That is just the way it is, you'll understand one day.

"Why are you a believer?" = Because you were regenerated.

"Why was I regenerated?" = Because God is sovereign.

Why is God sovereign? = Because that is who He is.

Why...? Why...? Why...?

Regenerated can just as easily be a "what" and not a "why"

You don't even believe that someone suddenly believes with no prompting whatsoever. What is the source of that prompting?

The Holy Spirit does the prompting through His word.

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. (He raises those who come)

Why does it work on some but not on others?

This is where free will comes in. He brings us to the water but He doesn't make us drink. He could make us drink but that would kill free will and our own responsibility and our punishment being just.

What is it about you and me that caused us to accept while others did not?

I don't know. I do know that we do need to be persuaded. God has made it fair.

2 Co 5:11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men;

 

[webdog]

Originally posted by Scott J:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by webdog:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> I had some thoughts on this topic yesterday.
If we do absoutly anything to earn or deserve grace from God, it is no longer free, it is no longer grace.

This would include believing and having faith, If ABSOLUTELY NOTHING is required. This is self defeating and goes against the biblical model for salvation. </font>[/QUOTE] Nope. Believing and faith are a result of God's grace, not the cause of it.

Why does salvation occur? Because God regenerates a spiritually dead sinner resulting in their willful belief and faith.

How does it occur? By repentance, confession, and faith.

Faith and belief are not works and are commanded.

If faith or belief are the direct result of a process of thought independent of regeneration then they are the result of "work" that we have done.

Only if they are the result of God's regenerating power are they not a result of "our" work.

God either does a work within us that causes us to accept Him or we do a work within ourselves that cause us Him to accept us. </font>[/QUOTE]We have been around this block on the c/a forum. You can prove from nowhere in scripture that we are regenerated prior to salvation. Accepting a gift is not work. We are told to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved. Note the WILL BE part. If we are given the mysterious regenerating faith to use as calvinism claims, we are still required to use it. According to your theology it would be a work still. If I cut down a tree, does it matter if I use my saw, or if I use the saw my neighbor gave me? Believing and faith are not works, as they are even separated in Ephesians 2.

 

[Artimaeus]

Originally posted by Scott J:
So you are basically saying that man has enough goodness within himself that after being drawn he can believe?

It isn't the goodness in man (None)but, man still has a mind with which to believe.

He is not dead in trespasses and sin?

He is spiritually dead and cannot initiate, come, or respond to God on his own.

He isn't spiritually blind...

Of course, until God shares the light with him.

but instead just needs glasses?

That's really good, I like it.

why do you say all aren't drawn with the same force or given the opportunity to hear the gospel? If anyone given the right opportunity and drawing could believe and the Holy Spirit doesn't draw all people with equal clarity and force then doesn't that leave God guilty for not being fair with everyone?

I'm pretty sure that I didn't say anything about unequal force or opportunity, at least not intentionally. What I said was that God deals with each person differently and in such a way that all WILL have an equal opportunity in HIS judgement.

you have come fairly close to calvinism

(just kidding)

You have the Holy Spirit failing at something He sets out to do.

No failure. 100% success. He sets out to "draw" all men and that is what He does.

Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

The quality of a magnets power has nothing to do with the object, or even lack of object, in front of it. It remains the same.

You leave Him either not persuasive enough to convince the sinner or else lacking persistence.

He is persuasive enough to be fair and just (myabe even more) but, His persistance is at His option.

Gen 6:3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, (I know, a little out of context but it is the thought I am trying to convey.)

 

[donnA]

Originally posted by Scott J:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by webdog:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> I had some thoughts on this topic yesterday.
If we do absoutly anything to earn or deserve grace from God, it is no longer free, it is no longer grace.

This would include believing and having faith, If ABSOLUTELY NOTHING is required. This is self defeating and goes against the biblical model for salvation. </font>[/QUOTE] Nope. Believing and faith are a result of God's grace, not the cause of it.

Why does salvation occur? Because God regenerates a spiritually dead sinner resulting in their willful belief and faith.

How does it occur? By repentance, confession, and faith.

Faith and belief are not works and are commanded.

If faith or belief are the direct result of a process of thought independent of regeneration then they are the result of "work" that we have done.

Only if they are the result of God's regenerating power are they not a result of "our" work.

God either does a work within us that causes us to accept Him or we do a work within ourselves that cause us Him to accept us. </font>[/QUOTE]thank you Scott,
it's either all God, or it's us, thats the choices.
And it ain't me, so it must have been all Him.

 

[webdog]

donna, so faith is not required? If it's "all God" then this would not be required.

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by Artimaeus:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Scott J:
So you are basically saying that man has enough goodness within himself that after being drawn he can believe?

It isn't the goodness in man (None)but, man still has a mind with which to believe.</font>[/QUOTE] Are you then arguing that to believe the gospel is not a good decision? Your words "mind with which to believe" indicates a means and a result.

You have man doing something that ultimately represents the prime cause for his own personal salvation but deny that it has moral merit?

That is the question that has to be answered Art. When you ask "Why?" 7 times... or 700 times, what is the last answer?

Please give me another option if you can... I have been looking for one for some time but only know of two:

1) Ultimately a man chooses salvation while another does not because there is some good quality in him or else evil in the other person that causes the decision... with this goodness or evil somehow independent of the goodness of God. In either case, this independent decision renders him morally better than the person who chose poorly and also resulted in God recognizing and rewarding that moral merit.

2) Man ultimately chooses salvation because God imparts goodness to him, changes his nature, and frees him to make the "good" decision to believe.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />He is not dead in trespasses and sin?

He is spiritually dead and cannot initiate, come, or respond to God on his own.</font>[/QUOTE] Then do you agree that God initiates according to His own pleasure and purpose that cannot fail?

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />but instead just needs glasses?

That's really good, I like it.</font>[/QUOTE] Glad you liked it. It has a serious note though. If one argues that man was only marred by the fall then he isn't blind but rather just needs something to clear his vision so he can make the right decision based on the right perception.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />why do you say all aren't drawn with the same force or given the opportunity to hear the gospel? If anyone given the right opportunity and drawing could believe and the Holy Spirit doesn't draw all people with equal clarity and force then doesn't that leave God guilty for not being fair with everyone?

I'm pretty sure that I didn't say anything about unequal force or opportunity, at least not intentionally.</font>[/QUOTE] It was implied but even if it weren't it is a fact that some people have a better opportunity than others. Some go through life with no knowledge of Christ whatsoever.

But more importantly, if you say that all somehow are drawn equally then it is necessarily true that some are better than others.

What I said was that God deals with each person differently and in such a way that all WILL have an equal opportunity in HIS judgement.

People live and die without hearing the gospel. You can't simply ascribe this inequity to God deciding what equal opportunity means without His ever saying so in His Word, can you?

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />You have the Holy Spirit failing at something He sets out to do.

No failure. 100% success. He sets out to "draw" all men and that is what He does.</font>[/QUOTE] If He draws all men then either a) all will come or b) the good will come and the bad will reject or c) He doesn't draw all equally.

Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

The quality of a magnets power has nothing to do with the object, or even lack of object, in front of it. It remains the same.

But we are talking about a moral choice, right?

Is there a general call? Yes. Romans 1 also affirms this. But John also records that Jesus said His sheep hear His voice and follow Him.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />You leave Him either not persuasive enough to convince the sinner or else lacking persistence.

He is persuasive enough to be fair and just (myabe even more) but, His persistance is at His option.</font>[/QUOTE] Huh? So you balk at the idea that God elected then regenerated some but are OK with the idea that the Holy Spirit is more persistent with one than another? I actually agree that He is but it seems to be an inconsistency in your views.

Gen 6:3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, (I know, a little out of context but it is the thought I am trying to convey.)

Thanks for being honest... but yeah it is out of context.

I am still enjoying our interaction... and still getting things to think about.

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by webdog:
We have been around this block on the c/a forum. You can prove from nowhere in scripture that we are regenerated prior to salvation.

Well except for virtually every place salvation is illustrated as new birth: John 3, John 1:13, Romans 8:7-15, 1 Peter 1:3, 1 John 2:29, Titus 3:5, and James 1:18.

Accepting a gift is not work.

I know that this is a convenient objection for you but it simply doesn't hold water.

If you and I are standing in Wal-mart and one of those little ladies shows up with a sample to offer us and you accept while I reject- both of our choices were the result of a process of thought. While it is true that we did not make or pay for the gift ourselves, it is does not follow that you did nothing at all to receive the gift. You did mental work and made a decision.

We are told to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved. Note the WILL BE part. If we are given the mysterious regenerating faith to use as calvinism claims, we are still required to use it.

God's means of saving the lost is His means. I am not arguing "what" happens with you or anyone else here. Most of us as Baptist would agree that we heard the gospel and believed.

The question is "Why?" Why did you believe while Carl Sagan (presumably) did not?

According to your theology it would be a work still.

It would be an action resulting from grace, yes... just like everything else we do in reponse to God's Word. Belief is a cognizant action/decision.

If I cut down a tree, does it matter if I use my saw, or if I use the saw my neighbor gave me? Believing and faith are not works, as they are even separated in Ephesians 2.

I just quickly read Ephesians 2 in the NASB and KJV. Unless I missed it, no form of the word "believe" appears in the whole chapter.

If you are talking about grace then just read what the scripture says. It says by grace salvation is accomplished through faith- Not OF works lest any man should boast. Salvation is "of" grace not "of" works... but it is still through faith... and faith is something expressed by us.

The whole matter is cause. I say "grace" causes "faith" and that this grace comes from God, period. Your position seems to be that "faith" either causes or activates "grace" and comes from a good decision made by the sinner.

 

[webdog]

If you and I are standing in Wal-mart and one of those little ladies shows up with a sample to offer us and you accept while I reject- both of our choices were the result of a process of thought. While it is true that we did not make or pay for the gift ourselves, it is does not follow that you did nothing at all to receive the gift. You did mental work and made a decision.

You NEED this flawed line of thinking to make your theology work. I see no earning of the "sample" in your analogy. Thinking does not automatically mean working. Common sense should dictate that. Deciding to accept of reject a gift is not earning it, regardless how many calvinists try to change the definition. Please learn the true definition of what a gift is and how one receives it.

 

[donnA]

Originally posted by webdog:
donna, so faith is not required? If it's "all God" then this would not be required.

Faith is an act of God, it is a result of Him dwelling us. We are not able to have faith on our own.
If it isn't all God then Jesus died in vain.

 

[webdog]

Originally posted by donnA:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by webdog:
donna, so faith is not required? If it's "all God" then this would not be required.

Faith is an act of God, it is a result of Him dwelling us. We are not able to have faith on our own.
If it isn't all God then Jesus died in vain. </font>[/QUOTE]So explain what kind of faith the lost have in regards to false gods. Who gave them their faith? Do the lost have the ability to have faith on their own in any other manner? What about the "elect"? Do the non elect sit in chairs and have faith the chair holds them? Can they have faith in ANYTHING? Where did they get this faith?

Nowhere in scripture is it stated the "elect" get saving faith and the non elect do not get this faith. I know calvinism needs this to justify their doctrine, but faith is faith, and is not a given commodity. Rely on the Bible and not on John Calvin.