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"Graduating" from the NIV

37818

37818

Well-Known Member
Silverhair said:
Even modern Greek scholars are in disagreement as to how that verse should be translated. The following from the NET bible explains why this issue arises:
The textual problem μονογενὴς θεός (monogenē theo, "the only God") versus ὁ μονογενὴς υἱός (ho monogenē huio, "the only son") is a notoriously difficult one. Only one letter would have differentiated the readings in the MSS, since both words would have been contracted as nomina sacra; thus qMs or uMs. Externally, there are several variants, but they can be grouped essentially by whether they read θεός or υἱός. The majority of MSS, especially the later ones (A C3 Θ Ψ À1,13 œ lat), read ὁ μονογενὴς υἱός. Ã75 א1 33 pc have ὁ μονογενὴς θεός, while the anarthrous μονογενὴς θεός is found in Ã66 א* B C* L pc. The articular θεός is almost certainly a scribal emendation to the anarthrous θεός, for θεός without the article is a much harder reading. The external evidence thus strongly supports μονογενὴς θεός. Internally, although υἱός fits the immediate context more readily, θεός is much more difficult. As well, θεός also explains the origin of the other reading (υἱός), because it is difficult to see why a scribe who found υἱός in the text he was copying would alter it to θεός. Scribes would naturally change the wording to υἱός however, since μονογενὴς υἱός is a uniquely Johannine christological title (cf. Joh_3:16; Joh_3:18; 1Jn_4:9). But θεός as the older and more difficult reading is preferred. As for translation, it makes the most sense to see the word θεός as in apposition to μονογενής, and the participleὁ ὤν (ho ōn) as in apposition to θεός, giving in effect three descriptions of Jesus rather than only two. NET
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The Lockman Foundation copyright holders are keeping the "God" reading.
 
M

Martin Marprelate

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
alexander284 said:
If someone is ready to choose a more "word for word" Bible translation (after having read the NIV for a number of years) which translation would you steer them toward, if asked your opinion?
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I have used the NKJV for all my private study and reading for many years. I think it is the best available. If you prefer the Critical text, then I know the older NASB is good, but I haven't read the new one. The ESV is okay.
My church uses the 1984 version of the NIV which I preach from without too many problems. It reads very smoothly, but is not really as accurate as I would prefer. The 2011 NIV is good in parts, but has some serious problems because of its attempts to be 'Gender-neutral.' The F.I.E.C. and the N.I.V. 2011
 
C

Conan

Well-Known Member
Silverhair said:
Your logic is flawed, one does not go from easy to hard.
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When you change God's word, you go from easy to hard. Right to wrong. Accidental or deliberate. Make a copy mistake, whether by pencil or keyboard, and you went from easy to hard.
 
alexander284

alexander284

Well-Known Member
Returning to the subject of the more "word for word" Bible translations, I'm trying to understand the reason behind the popularity of the ESV. I must be missing something, because I really don't understand why it's been embraced by so many Bible readers. I suppose I need to spend more time familiarizing myself with the ESV?
 
Dr. Bob

Dr. Bob

Administrator
Administrator
alexander284 said:
Returning to the subject of the more "word for word" Bible translations, I'm trying to understand the reason behind the popularity of the ESV. I must be missing something, because I really don't understand why it's been embraced by so many Bible readers. I suppose I need to spend more time familiarizing myself with the ESV?
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The two options for the "word-for-word" accuracy without all the dated pitfalls of our evolving English language (think AV1611 and its constant revisions) are the ASV (and its modern offspring) or the ESV. I did my undergrad with ASV1901 and found it did not "flow" in reading, although most accurate in grammar/syntax. Never could enjoy NASB et al. Love the ESV for readability and that might be why it is so popular today.
 
JonC

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
alexander284 said:
I take it the ESV is considered more "readable" than the NASB?
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I've found it to be.

I preached from the NASB (I grew up with it). But I'd get tongue tied. It was awkward in places. So I started using a different translation for reading aloud (usually ESV or NIV).
 
V

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
alexander284 said:
If someone is ready to choose a more "word for word" Bible translation (after having read the NIV for a number of years) which translation would you steer them toward,if asked your opinion?
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Thanks for the thoughtful way you broached the subject. Here are my thoughts:

1) Word for word misses the mark, the actual best approach to translation is word or phrase meaning for word or phrase meaning. Thus if a Greek word is used in two different verses to mean two things, than that single Greek word would be translated into two different English words or phrases in order to translate the actual meaning (or the most probable one discerned by study). For example the Greek might say baptism, but the meaning is either water baptism done by humans, or our spiritual baptism into Christ.

2) Both the NIV and NASB have poorly translated verses, so if the NASB is adopted for study (which is what I use) comparison with other well respected translations is needed for study to identify when the NASB, or whatever study bible you use, misses the mark. I use these comparison bibles, the KJV, the NKJV, and the WEB on one hand, and the NLT, NIV, NET, ESV and CSB on the other. Often these give me another insight into possible avenues of interpretation.

3) Let me digress and discuss John 1:18. The translations differ as to whether the text reads "God" or "Son" and to castigate the NIV's choice of God over Son seems agenda driven. The NET footnote discusses the issue and comes down on the side of unique one, Himself God. This makes the reference to God the Son, as John uses "monogenes" as an identifying descriptor of Christ, many times. And John also uses "theos" as a descriptor of Christ many times. See John 3:16 and Revelation 1:8.
 
C

ChristB4Us

Member
alexander284 said:
For whatever reason, in regard to the more "word for word" Bible translations, I find myself favoring the NASB95 over the ESV.
I think, perhaps, because I've never been one to use the KJV.
What I mean to say is: I've often read that the ESV's popularity is due, in large part, to its similarities to the KJV.
As I understand it, it reads a lot like the KJV, as far as cadence, syntax, sentence structure, etc.?
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Whenever correcting false teaching, if you have trouble doing it either by the NIV or the NASB95 or the ESV, check with the KJV as I rely on Jesus Christ for applying the "meat" of His words as I see it kept "mostly" in the KJV.

Example; there are believers out there that believe they are not saved yet but are in the process of being saved and they can use 1 Corinthians 18 in those 3 Bible versions you mentioned but argue against the KJV saying we are saved. FYI

1 Corinthians 1:17-18,21 KJV,NASB1995,NIV,ESV - For Christ sent me not to baptize, but - Bible Gateway

Another example is how many saved believers are led astray for seeking that baptism with the Holy Ghost with evidence of tongues which is an apostate calling when Jesus says no sign shall be given those that seek but the sign of Jonah as only an adulterous generation that seeks after a sign. Matthew 12:38-40

But they ignored that warning and so they look to receive the Holy Spirit by a sign which is after the rudiment of the world for how they receive spirits by seeing it happen, but Jesus said we will not know the Holy Spirit that way but by Him dwelling in us. John 14:17

John 14:17 KJV;NASB1995;NIV;NKJV - Even the Spirit of truth; whom the - Bible Gateway

That is why that tongue is not coming with interpretation but is gibberish nonsense for why they are assuming it is for private use when it is not of Him at all, let alone that apostate calling in looking for a sign of salvation.

When we look at all your 3 Bible versions with the KJV, it testifies how the Holy spirit speaks as not from Himself or on His own, or on His initiative, or on His authority but He can only speak what He hears.

John 16:13;Romans 8:26-27 KJV;NASB1995;NIV;ESV - Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, - Bible Gateway

Only the KJV has kept the meat of His words in Romans 8:26-27 in that the Holy Spirit cannot even utter His own groanings out loud either.

But the KJV does have evidence where people had wrest the scriptures, but I should wait for anyone that is mature to handle that truth as this wresting of the scripture can be found in all Bibles.

Hebrews 5:11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.

12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.

14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

2 Peter 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

John 15:20 Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.
 
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