Hi ascund,
ascund:
Believing is NOT a work. I HAVE NO IDEA WHERE YOU GET THIS.
Jim (this message):
I’LL SHOW YOU HOW.
ascund (09/16/05, 12:59pm):
So which contractual clause of the New Testament do you use to support this statement of conditionality?
Jim (in response, 09/16/05, 05:42pm):
The contract is that EVERYONE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM HAS ETERNAL LIFE (John 3:16 and 6:47). That’s the contract. IF A BELIEVER STOPS BELIEVING and literally no longer believes that Jesus is the Son of God or that he took the sins of the world on Himself or that He rose from the dead, THEN THE CONTRACT IS BROKEN.
ascund (in response, 09/17/05, 08:36am, mistaking what I, Jim, said above for something said by steaver):
STUPENDOUS LOGIC! Many troubles with curiosities of a single word can be straightened out with an appeal to the larger known truths of God's Word. ... The onus is upon BobRyan and 1jim to manufacture the NT clause that would allow A BELIEVER TO BE CAST INTO HELL.
steaver (in response, 09/17/05, 09:08am):
THAT WAS JIM'S QUOTE LLOYD.
ascund (in response, 09/17/05, 09:19am):
THAT WAS A GREAT QUOTE! I THOUGHT 1JIM WAS THE ARMINIAN HERE.
Jim (in response, 09/17/05, 10:55am):
WHERE DID YOU EVER GET THE IDEA THAT I THOUGHT THAT A BELIEVER WOULD GO TO HELL? That’s where unbelievers go, whether or not they ever believed before. The onus is on you to show where the Bible teaches that a believer cannot stop believing and thus become an unbeliever. The Bible is full of assurances to believers, to those who continue to believe. One must believe in order to have these assurances. IF ONE CHOOSES TO NO LONGER BELIEVE, THEN THAT FROM WHICH HE WALKS AWAY IS NOT FORCED ON HIM; HE FORFEITS THE INHERITANCE. Eternal security applies to believers, not to unbelievers. AS LONG AS ONE BELIEVES, HE IS ETERNALLY SECURE. ... The OSAS doctrine takes the Biblical idea that the believer is eternally secure one step farther into the NON-Biblical idea that even someone who USED TO believe but NO LONGER believes is likewise eternally secure. Thus, the OSAS doctrine ends up teaching that UNBELIEVERS HAVE ETERNAL LIFE, which is NOT Biblical.
ascund (in response, 09/17/05, 11:17am):
You CoCers are so focused on YOUR SELF-RIGHTEOUS WAY TO PLEASE GOD that your whole denomination has put an unspoken ban on God's contracts.
Jim (in response, 09/17/05, 12:20pm):
WHY DO YOU SAY “SELF-RIGHTEOUS?” I’ve said more than once that BELIEVERS ARE SECURE REGARDLESS OF WHETHER OR NOT THEY ARE GOOD BELIEVERS, as long as they are BELIEVERS. If they STOP BELIEVING that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, THEN THEY ARE NO LONGER BELIEVERS, in which case they forfeit the benefits of being a believer.
ascund (in response, 09/17/05, 12:41pm):
I SAY SELF-RIGHTEOUS BECAUSE the task of remaining in God's family (for you) requires your faithful obedience and endurance. IF YOU EVER STOP BELIEVING THEN YOU PERISH. Everything is focused on YOU. ... You endorse A SELF-RIGHTEOUS SYSTEM of death for no one can comply with YOUR DEMANDS FOR PERFECTION. I endorse a system based totally and ONLY ON JESUS CHRIST. His righteousness pleases God - not mine!
Jim (in response, 09/17/05, 03:03pm):
THE REQUIREMENT TO CONTINUE TO BELIEVE IS NO MORE A WORK THAN THE REQUIREMENT TO INITIALLY BELIEVE IS. According to your logic, one should not even be required to believe in the first place, because that’s a work; God should just heap eternal life on everyone whether they want it or not and whether they believe or not, because that way no one can be said to engage in a work. WHY YOU EQUATE BELIEVING TO A WORK, I HAVE NO IDEA.
ascund (in response, 09/17/05, 04:07pm):
First, BELIEVING IN JESUS IS NOT A WORK. ... THE INITIAL ACT OF BELIEVING IS NOT A WORK. In John 3, Jesus equated it to a LOOK. One must make a willful decision to believe in Jesus. THIS IS NOT A WORK. ... One is required to believe because JUSTIFYING FAITH IS NOT A WORK. ... It is wrong to try TO TWIST THE LOOK OF FAITH INTO A FULL-FLEDGED SYSTEM OF OBEDIENCE. ... BELIEVING IS NOT A WORK. I HAVE NO IDEA WHERE YOU GET THIS. Belief in Jesus is an active LOOK to Him - nothing more - nothing less. WHY WOULD YOU WANT TO USE SUCH EXTREME LINES IN AN ARGUMENT TO JUSTIFY YOUR POSITION.
Jim (this message):
One minute, you’re agreeing with what I say and calling it a “great quote,” in which I say, “If a believer stops believing ... then the contract is broken.” The next minute, you’re calling me a “Christ denier” who is “self-righteous” because I say that if the believer stops believing, thus breaking the contract, he perishes.
First of all, you can’t seem to make up your mind whether you agree with me or not. Your most recent position seems to be that initial belief is not a work but continuing to believe after that is a work. I have no idea how you figure that belief goes from not being a work to being a work.
I never said anything about a system of obedience or about perfect behavior. I said that one must believe in order to be saved and have eternal life. That’s just as true at the end of one’s Christian life as it is at the beginning of one’s Christian life. If a person believes, then he is a believer, and he has eternal life. If a person does not believe, then he is an unbeliever, and he does not have eternal life. There’s no time limit on when belief in Christ is necessary to have eternal life.
This differentiation that you make between initial belief as not being a work and continued belief as being a work has no Biblical foundation.
Jim
