Greg Gilbert - Against Music

[tinytim]

Well m'friend, I'm 71 and have no idea what this term means,so please elaborate.

I may have done it, participated in it or observed it, but never being aware that it was "lining songs out".

It is something done in the Old Regular Baptists, in which one person reads the line of the song, and then the congregation sings that line...

Leader reads: "Amazing Grace how sweet the sound"

Congregation sings: "Amazing Grace how sweet the sound"

This way through the whole song..
And done without any instrumentation..

I found out that our church used to do this a long time ago, and I actually want to bring it back everyonce in a while....

It really seems more soulful than the way people sing pre arranged music now...

Maybe it's just me getting older...

 

[Bethelassoc]

It is something done in the Old Regular Baptists, in which one person reads the line of the song, and then the congregation sings that line...

Leader reads: "Amazing Grace how sweet the sound"

Congregation sings: "Amazing Grace how sweet the sound"

This way through the whole song..
And done without any instrumentation..

I found out that our church used to do this a long time ago, and I actually want to bring it back everyonce in a while....

It really seems more soulful than the way people sing pre arranged music now...

Maybe it's just me getting older...

Tinytim,

I too grew up lining out songs in the United Baptist church. It is a dying art, and I'm glad to hear that the young ones enjoyed it. Living here in MO, the style is not done so much, but my wife and I will line out a song when asked to.

Here is a link to my family lining out songs with harmony(toward the bottom):

http://unitedbaptists.org/downloads.html

It is a little faster than the Old Regulars, but it has the same function.

David

If I had my preferences, I'd sing all our songs lined out.

 

[Tom Butler]

A lot of this goes with the thought I've heard expressed- " I just didn't get anything out of the service."

A fellow minister friend of mine put it this way to his congregation...

" We are here to worship God. I have found no where in the Bible that says we are to get something out of it. We are to give something to God- our worship."

Your minister friend nailed it. It happens when we consider ourselves as spectators to be entertained or have our emotions stirred. And when the worship leaders think of us as customers and themselves as performers, that mindset flourishes.

 

[Timsings]

Well m'friend, I'm 71 and have no idea what this term means,so please elaborate.

I may have done it, participated in it or observed it, but never being aware that it was "lining songs out".

I want to add a little to what others have said about "lining out". It began in the late 17th century when the congregation might have only one hymnbook (words only). The quality of this type of congregational singing deteriorated until the 1720's when there was a general call for printed music and music education.

If you're interested in hearing recordings of this type of singing, there is an album available from the Smithsonian Institute's Folkways Recordings. You can find it here. I need to warn you because it's not a real toe-tapper. I know some of the tunes listed, and I could not identify them from the heavy ornamentation of the singing. However, the last section where the singers talk about the value of their music to their worship is worth the price of the CD.

Tim Reynolds

 

[Zenas]

Thanks for posting this!

I think Greg has put his finger on a hot-button issue, that has been hot for quite a long time now.

To me, this issue can be boiled down to selfishness. Many hymn people hate praise and worship songs because they don't prefer that style and many praise and worship people hat hymns because they don't prefer that style. Since when did worshiping God revolve around our preferences! Sadly, I think that human preferences have always dictated worship, which is a bit sad to me. Within reason, a Christian should be able to worship God even if he/she doesn't like the musical style at all. Worship is more than hearing what makes us happy!

Well, maybe. But if I were looking for a church in a new community I would not even consider joining one that has a time of "praise and worship" as is so common today. Neither would I consider joining a church that emphasizes CCM. The reason for this is similar to why I don't go to rock concerts--I don't like them and would rather be doing anything else. So why should I remain in a church whose worship service is something I dread going to? What ever happened to the idea that worship is a quiet contemplative experience?

 

[Jonathan]

I tend to agree with the Greg's blog. Churches do struggle with the "idolatry of preference". But what I find missing in discussions like these is a mention of the preference of the pastor. If a senior pastor's preference is for the worship to be the power point/no hymnal/chorus style then, sooner or later, this will be the case. Likewise, if the pastor's preference is for hymns, then that will be the predominant preference. In either case, this will likely take place in the form of the music minister that the senior pastor chooses.

I don't particularly have a problem with this because leadership is leadership but I do believe that if pastors and elders recognized this about themselves, they would be a bit more sensitive to the preferences of folks in the flock and at least attempt to model selflessness. And rather than taking the easy route and rant against the problem of preferences among the laity, they might seek to discover the real issue at hand.

As a pastor's son, I've seen the worship wars from the front row (so to speak) and in every case the problem involved a heart issue completely removed from the topic of worship.

 

[lbaker]

As a real geezer, age 55, I've got to say I love CCM, and don't think I would want to go to a church that just sang hymns. I listened to hymns for almost 50 years and then finally had enough and bailed out for a church that had "my" kind of music.

If other folks prefer a church that sings hymns, that is fine, but it is not for me.

 

[cowboymatt]

Well, maybe. But if I were looking for a church in a new community I would not even consider joining one that has a time of "praise and worship" as is so common today. Neither would I consider joining a church that emphasizes CCM. The reason for this is similar to why I don't go to rock concerts--I don't like them and would rather be doing anything else. So why should I remain in a church whose worship service is something I dread going to? What ever happened to the idea that worship is a quiet contemplative experience?

I agree with you with regard to finding a church. But do you think that your musical preference should be a reason to leave a church? What if you had been there for several years and had developed important friendships and service opportunities? Would you then let you preferences steal those things from you?

 

[Amy.G]

Personally, I don't think music type should be a consideration for joining a particular church AT ALL.

When we came to our present church, we came from a large church where CCM was used in addition to hymns. We had a big choir and all the latest electronic equipment and so forth. There were constant complaints from both sides about the music type. We even tried having one service (on Sunday mornings) for the CCM crowd and the second service for the traditional worship crowd. It didn't work. People still compained. We eventually left that church (not for music reasons). I like both types of music.

The church we attend now is a small church with no choir and never uses CCM as part of the worship. At first I thought I would have a problem with it because I personally love CCM, especially Casting Crowns (I have most of their cd's), but to my surprise, I don't miss it at all in the worship service. When we sing, we sing to God. His Spirit fills our church and instead of listening to the choir, we ARE the choir. I would NEVER consider leaving our church because we sing traditional hymns. I will leave when the Spirit leaves.

My point is that worship is not about the music type. It's about our spirits joining in with God's Spirit to become one with Him in our worship of Him. I think sometimes we forget that.

 

[rbell]

I also think there is too much equating music with worship in SBC churches that I am acquainted with. Worship = music, and music = worship. Well, no, there are a lot more acts of worship that should occur such as Scripture reading and prayer. But we too often narrowly define worship to just mean music.

I agree with this.

 

[rbell]

I remember lining out a great deal during my teenage years...


But then I quit baseball.

 

[Zenas]

I agree with you with regard to finding a church. But do you think that your musical preference should be a reason to leave a church? What if you had been there for several years and had developed important friendships and service opportunities? Would you then let you preferences steal those things from you?

Not yet but there may come a time when I have to leave. When and if that time comes, I expect there will be 100 or so of us who make the move at once. I hope it doesn't come to that but I'm not going to remain in a worship service when the level of discomfort is something akin to getting a root canal.

 

[nodak]

We qualify as geezers, being around 60. We do not have a lot of choice in Baptist churches here, but music is definitely part of making the choice.

To refuse to attend a church that uses mostly CCM on powerpoint is not a matter of personal preference for music styles for us. It is not elevating ourselves above the leader.

It isn't about music style at all. It IS about content.

First and foremost, it is about the lyrics. Endlessly repeating choruses focused on the emotions of the worshipper misses the point to us. Who is being worshipped? Old music or new, we prefer music that focuses on Jesus Christ. (And some reference to a generic master or a capitolized "You" does not make clear to the unbeliever just Who we are worshipping.) There are excellent hymns, and vacuous ones. The same can be said for CCM. Whatever the style, we look for content in the music.

We like to sing. We read music. It is very disconcerting to constantly be presented new songs WITHOUT THE MUSIC TO FOLLOW. It seems, speaking only for our town, that the church with the powerpoint CCM feels the only ones who's need for the notes, or who's preference in music counts, is the pastor and song leader. We had a vote on it in business meeting, and the people in the pew ask for blended, an even balance of hymns and CCM, and to put the music on powerpoint as well as the words. None of it happened. We were told "this is what people want today." Our question is WHAT PEOPLE given the vote that included teens, young adults, middle adults, and oldsters?

The fastest growing churches in our region are the "cowboy" churches doing the old hymns in a western (not country and western) manner. That appears to be what the people want here. And yet the struggling churches that meet in buildings keep trying to turn us all into 20something yuppies.

 

[cowboymatt]

So nodak, if a CCM's lyrics are good and theologically correct, would you like it?

Also, with regard to you "playing into the emotions" argument about CCM; don't hymns do that for you too? When you hear a hymn you grew up with doesn't it elicit positive emotions in you, emotions that lead you (hopefully) into a more worshipful spirit?

But I agree with your final point. Music style should be dictated by what the congregation is comfortable with. Unfortunately, music is so important to some people that they will leave a church because of it. If this can be prevented (sometimes its impossible to please everyone), it should be.

 

[Joshua Rhodes]

Clear the stage and set the sound and lights ablaze if that's the measure you must take to crush the idols. Jerk the pews and all the decorations, too until the congregation's few, then have revival. Tell your friends that this is where the party ends until your broken for your sins. You can't be social. Seek the Lord and wait for what He has in store and know that great is your reward so just be hopeful.

You can sing all you want to, but don't get me wrong... worship is more than a song.

Take a break from all the plans that you have made and sit at home alone and wait for God to whisper. Beg and plead Him open up His mouth and speak and pray for real upon your knees until they blister. Shine the light on every corner of your life until the pride and lust and lies are in the open. Read the Word and put to test the things you've heard until your heart and soul are stirred and rocked and broken.

You can sing all you want to, but don't get me wrong... worship is more than a song.

Anything I put before my God is an idol.
Anything I want with all my heart is an idol.
Anything I can't stop thinking of is an idol.
Anything that I give all my love is an idol.

We must not worship something that's not even worth it... clear the stage, make some space for the One who deserves it.

'Cause I can sing all I want to and still get it wrong.
You can sing all you want to, but don't get it wrong... worship is more that a song.

Clear the Stage Ross King
© 2002 Ross King
www.rosskingmusic.com

 

[twomontes]

As one fast approaching"geezerhood" as BrotherBill can testify to,let me get my two cents worth in here. I personally like a wide range of style.I have some CCM
some praise and worship and some old hymns on my MP3 player"aint i cool".
The question in my church and in my mind is not so much the style as we sing some CCM in our small (8 Member) choir but the question should be at what point does it cease to be worship and begin to be entertainment.Do we need drums,tuners amps jumping and clapping to worship or is it just"feel good"
I love music but I don't need it to usher in the presence of God,He was there waiting on me. :godisgood:

 

[nodak]

I prefer a blended service, or else cowboy church. Or a bit of all three.

Yes, hymns often evoke strong emotion. There is a HUGE difference between being moved, for example, while singing "I stand amazed in the presence of Jesus the Nazarene" and actually BEING amazed and chanting 17 times through some version of "You make me feel good."

There is MUCH excellent CCM. I think if we focus on the lyrics rather than the music style, we can come to common ground. Much CCM is written as a hymn. Why only sing the chorus umpteen times?

I think if we choose music that actually says something, give the congregation the music as well as the "worship team", and pay attention to what music is popular in a given area or population, we can use music to evangelize the world.

Unfortunately (speaking only locally) we have some leaders wanting to "do church" ONLY in the California emergent style. Trouble is, we are not in California. We are squarely in ranch country. Truth is most folks here would probably rather hear Amazing Grace done with fiddles and a banjo than anything Maranatha (whom I love) ever did.

To me, the point of the service is to bring the lost to Jesus. (SS and "training union" are for discipling. Worship is a private thing.) That may mean doing hymns western style here, doing CCM in California, doing old hymns revival style in some areas, and rapping in others.

 

[cowboymatt]

I prefer a blended service, or else cowboy church. Or a bit of all three.

Yes, hymns often evoke strong emotion. There is a HUGE difference between being moved, for example, while singing "I stand amazed in the presence of Jesus the Nazarene" and actually BEING amazed and chanting 17 times through some version of "You make me feel good."

There is MUCH excellent CCM. I think if we focus on the lyrics rather than the music style, we can come to common ground. Much CCM is written as a hymn. Why only sing the chorus umpteen times?

I think if we choose music that actually says something, give the congregation the music as well as the "worship team", and pay attention to what music is popular in a given area or population, we can use music to evangelize the world.

Unfortunately (speaking only locally) we have some leaders wanting to "do church" ONLY in the California emergent style. Trouble is, we are not in California. We are squarely in ranch country. Truth is most folks here would probably rather hear Amazing Grace done with fiddles and a banjo than anything Maranatha (whom I love) ever did.

To me, the point of the service is to bring the lost to Jesus. (SS and "training union" are for discipling. Worship is a private thing.) That may mean doing hymns western style here, doing CCM in California, doing old hymns revival style in some areas, and rapping in others.

Good post! I could pick a bone with you about what the point of the service is, but that's neither here nor there!

 

[rbell]

I prefer a blended service, or else cowboy church. Or a bit of all three.

Yes, hymns often evoke strong emotion. There is a HUGE difference between being moved, for example, while singing "I stand amazed in the presence of Jesus the Nazarene" and actually BEING amazed and chanting 17 times through some version of "You make me feel good."

There is MUCH excellent CCM. I think if we focus on the lyrics rather than the music style, we can come to common ground. Much CCM is written as a hymn. Why only sing the chorus umpteen times?

I think if we choose music that actually says something, give the congregation the music as well as the "worship team", and pay attention to what music is popular in a given area or population, we can use music to evangelize the world.

Unfortunately (speaking only locally) we have some leaders wanting to "do church" ONLY in the California emergent style. Trouble is, we are not in California. We are squarely in ranch country. Truth is most folks here would probably rather hear Amazing Grace done with fiddles and a banjo than anything Maranatha (whom I love) ever did.

To me, the point of the service is to bring the lost to Jesus. (SS and "training union" are for discipling. Worship is a private thing.) That may mean doing hymns western style here, doing CCM in California, doing old hymns revival style in some areas, and rapping in others.

Gotta know your people group.

 

[MNJacob]

Arguements about musical style really date all the way bay to the Middle Ages when polyphonic vocal and instrumental compositions began to push gregorian chant out of the church. We all have a tendency to prefer the music that we most closely associate with the growth of our own personal relationship with our Lord. There is nothing wrong with that, but it reflects our preferences and experiences and isnt any sort of universal standard.

I am in the geezer generation, and I like it all. I get so tired of these types of discussions.

The Hallelujah Chorus (yes it is a chorus....duh!) repeats "praise to the Lord" in Hebrew over 450 times. And Handel's presentations were intended as commercial presentations, equivalent to Rolling Stones concerts, right down to the substance abuse and carnal excesses that are associated with Rock Music today, in spite of the libretto that he used.

Mozart was called to task because his music contained "Too many notes". (Saliare's quote is not just from the Movie "Amadeus").

Luther used bar tunes in many of his hymns, including "A Mighty Fortress is Our God" in order to get the congregation singing along, yes drinking bar tunes.

Isaac Watts was censured for using contemporary themes in his hymns. God forbid that you sang anything that wasn't a Psalm.

And whose career is considered to be the beginning of CCM? Bill Gaither. "The King is Coming" started it all. (Now I am a little tongue in cheek there.)

Paul told us to sing "Psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs." And unfortunately for some of us the very word that we translate "sing Psalms" really means, "sing accompanied by instruments".

Now that I have whined, for those of you who are uncomfortable with a song. Turn the volume down and listen to it for at least 4 times before you pass your musical judgement on it. Don't let volume alone determine your reaction.

And for those of you who don't like CCM, let me ask you one question, what are you listening to in your homes and cars? Rush Limbaugh? The Today show? It you are listening to BBN or a Gospel music station, I will cut you a pass. But I would rather listen to Third Day than Limbaugh in a heartbeat.

Read the words, without the music and see if there are you believe that there is problem with the lyrics. By the way, do that with some of your favorite hymns, or even worse some of your favorite Christmas Carols (many of which are more Unitarian and Humanist than you would suspect.)

Find out the testimony behind the song. What was going on in the songwriter's life to set the stage for the song? Is God honored?

Is the proper relationship of the worshipper to the Living Lord confirmed?

God gave us music, I believe that the potential for chords and harmonies are a metaphor for us aligning our hearts with His. I believe that is one of the reasons that He tells us that He inhabits out praise?

We are going to sing "Worthy is the lamb that was slain" about a gazillion times when we get to heaven. It will be a praise chorus. It will be loud. It will be glorius.

And surprize, surprize, it probably wont be in English.

Get used to it. Get over it. Get on with it.