Greg Gilbert - Against Music

[Sopranette]

Maybe we need to define CCM---because actually, (I think Joshua brought this title up), I once visited a church in Northern NM with a country and western service, and altered lyrics to Garth Brooks then hit "I've Got Friends in Low Places" WAS one of the "worship" songs done. A dear friend of ours was a member there, a former alcoholic and country and westen bar goer, and he avoided that service like the plague. Said it made him want to run out to the old haunts.

Yeah, I remember one Easter service where a couple sang John Denver's "Leaving On A Jet Plane" as a worship song. I didn't know whether to laugh or be outraged.
"I'm leeeavin' on a jet plane
Don't know when I'll be back again.
Oh, babe, I hate to goooo..."

love,

Sopranette

 

[annsni]

What, pray tell, is a "worship song"? Please give an example or two of old hymns that are "worthy" and that are not.

Hmmm - good question! I can tell you easily what hymns we do that I'd consider "worship" but I had to look up hymns that I would not consider worship because we don't do them! LOL!! Now, I'm certainly not saying that these songs are not worthy songs or sound songs, but that these songs are not what we would use in worship because we want to bring forth worship in our song time that is TO the Lord and not about us or other things.

So, those that we would not do:
In the Sweet By and By
The Master Has Come
Count Your Blessings

Some that we do:

Take My Life and Let it Be
All Creatures of Our God and King
Holy, Holy, Holy
O For a Thousand Tongues

Just to give you an idea.

 

[Sopranette]

Those are two of the songs my kids love to copy Momma, Ann. "Count Your Blessings," and "Sweet By And By." I gotta admit they are two of my favorites as well. I'm not sure why you would exclude them as not being worshipful, since the promise of Heaven and reminders to be thankful for our blessings here on earth are in Scriptures.

love,

Sopranette

 

[annsni]

The CCM I have heard lacks backbone, and most of it is not scriptural.

Guess we're listening to different music then - because the majority of what we do is straight from Scripture.

The dress that the artists wear is normally not modest, I believe that it can be in fact a tool that Satan uses to exploit our weaknesses.

LOL - Well, I guess button down shirts and slacks are not modest? Or a woman in a long flowing skirt and blouse? That's what our worship team wears.

However, how can you be sure it's Gods will to welcome in CCM. You can't, so I don't think there is any similarity that you can draw between draperies and music as far as splitting churches. One of these arguements is trivial, the other concerns the entire face of the church body.

Apparently it's not trivial to the members of my ILs church. It was important enough to leave a church! As for God's will, God says it clearly in Scripture that He desires and is worthy of worship. That's what we do with whatever music we use and whatever songs we use.

Yes, I would leave my church if we went to a completely contemporary, or even a blended service. That is not my own desires, trust me, the church hymns are NOT my personal preference. I just don't see how using a multi effects pedal with an electric guitar, syncopated beats, dim lights, projectors, and the lifting of hands waving them , drawing attention to yourself(which we should not do) pleases God

My husband recently went to a church where they had a 60 person choir and just an organ. He said it was nice but VERY performance oriented. With bows from the music director and all. That was very much drawing attention to themselves. In my opinion and experience, it's not the music that decides who it draws attention to but the spirit of those leading the worship and the congregation too. Are the congregation there to listen or to join in? Is the worship team/choir there to assist in bringing others to God in worship or are they there to sound great?

Here is where we are going to seriously disagree. CCM is just a way for people to chase after their own musical preferences in church. That's all it is. I mean seriously.

That's your own opinion. That's not all it is.

There is a meeting of all the Angel Food Ministries Host sites in Missouri (of which my church is a part of) and the minister of outrech for us was frantically contacting everyone trying to find guitar players and such for a directors meeting. He seemed more concerned with that than he is in doing Gods will.

So you can see his heart? You know that he was more concerned about finding some guitars so that he could offer a time of worship than for doing God's will?

If CCM doesn't take the focus off of God in your church, that's great, but just wait, the day will come.

No need to worry. We switched to more contemporary songs about 20 years ago and we're still focusing on God. If God wants us to stop ALL music, we'll do it but thus far, we are doing it as an offering to the Lord - NOT to fulfill something that WE want.

I have no idea what a worship pastor is, since my church doesn't have one, we do have a music director, though.

A worship pastor is the pastor who's in charge of the worship at the church. He WAS a worship leader (and an ordained minister), and there was a different music director, but he recently took over the running of all the music ministry and thus is termed the "worship pastor". You can call him the music pastor if you'd like. The only reason for "pastor" is that he IS an ordained pastor. If he were not ordained, he would be the music director.

The problem here is the focus, which according to this statement is on the music. The music in church is not to be used to "bring people to Gods throne" The music is to prepare our hearts for the preaching. The word of God is what brigs us to His throne. The Holy Spirit working in our lives is what brings us to His throne. And most of all, our loving Savior, Jesus Christ brings us to Gods throne.

OK - I see that we see the music in church differently. Worship in our church is not to prepare our hearts for the preaching - it's not about us. It's about bringing glory and honor to the Lord and having people connect to God. Worship is not just the music because we should worship God in everything we do but God created music and apparently, in reading through Scripture, is worshipped in the music and song of His people. So that is a difference in what we're saying about the music.

Again I disagree. The words are great, but the problem with CCM is it takes the focus off the words and puts it in the music that you hear. That is why they use projectors and take the hymnals out of the hands of the congregation. There are still people in this world (me not being one of them) that can read sheet music, and follow the melody by reading the score, my wife can do it. When you take that out of the peoples hands in worshiping through song, it's not long before the people who go along with CCM to become mind-numbed robots, and forget why they are there.

I don't know, but to me that's kind of funny. Because what I've seen is mindless, feelingless people in churches singing songs that mean nothing to them - that aren't even in their own language (many being English from the 1800s and earlier) - singing out of hymnals. You are saying that CCM takes the focus off the words and puts it in the music yet you say that we need to have the music in front of people so that they can read the music. Isn't that the focus of having the music in front of them? In the songs we do, the music is simple. My 7 year old can follow a brand new song easily because it's not complicated. But in reading the words, we see a God who is mighty, we are saying to God that He is amazing, wonderful, worthy of all that we have. It's not about the music and we could just as easily sing the songs acapella (and have) as with a full worship team. We can sing them with just a piano. Just with a guitar. Just with a kazoo. It's not about the music.

Pretty much every CCM song I've heard I can root back to a song that is played in bars, nightclubs, and so on.

I'd like to see these.

In closing, I would like to quote scripture.
1 Corinthians 8:12-13 says:


Meaning that we are not to offend our brothers with what we do. CCM allows people to no longer "dress moderately" as Paul has taught us, it allows the lifestyle that comes with secular music to come into our churches and corrupt the weak. We should all stand up and recognize this.

To say that this is from CCM is just silly, IMO. How about parents who don't teach their children modesty or respect? I'd say it's more from that than from the music.


I post this post in honor of Larry Norman who has passed away yesterday. We refer to him as the grandfather of Christian rock. I thank God for his ministry and as he said "Why should the devil have all the good music?"

 

[todd93]

Syncopation did not start from "voodoo." And if it did (which it didn't), then it would be a sin to play it anywhere, not just church.

If syncoptation is evil, there are a bunch of hymns that must be thrown out as well.

(a post from someone who uses old, ancient, and modern music--that is, music that has been evaluated based upon scripture)

Actually syncopation started in the middle ages with Ars nova, and has been embraced by many pagans, not just voodoo as their method of wroship.

Please name for me a hymn that uses syncopation.

 

[todd93]

One could argue that is the deacon's job to assist in service in ministry (not promoting unity per se, but that's another thread). You absolutely can make the similarity...in this way: There is a Christian way to deal with extra-biblical issues (and hymns vs. CCM is an extra-biblical issue, with regards to style of music played. Theological correctness of lyrics, standards for those leading the church, etc., should have the same standards applied either way you go), and there is an un-Christian way. Any church leadership who "beat their congregation over the head" with a CCM direction is not leading in a Christlike manner. Our church offers multiple services--one contemporary service, and one traditional. Out of the near one thousand that come, we have not had the wars and divisions often described. Why?

• I truly believe our church leadership has a servant attitude. That goes a long way.
• This was prayed over thoroughly.
• God is being honored in both services.
• We do both service styles with excellence. Many churches throw all their resources into one service, and the other is an afterthought. Here...we aim to give God our very best in both formats.

Yes, that is a deacons job, but our church constitution also states very plainly that they are to promote the unity and spirit of our church.

Well, at one time, the service you enjoy was a "contemporary service." Research the objections to the piano, the organ, and polyphonic singing offered by critics of the time. Thing is, I still love and enjoy traditional stuff, and enjoy it being a part of my worship, and a part of my church life.

At one time it was, but that is not a valid argument here. You should not use any melodies that chase after worldly secular music, sure the piano or organ wasn't around back then, but the guitar was. Oh yes, nobody really knows how far back the fretted instrument goes, because it has been traced back to many centuries B. C.

Mighty broad brush there. So...it's not possible for a traditionalist to have the same problems as a "contemporalist?" (Dont'cha love invented words? :laugh: )

I guess a traditionalist could have that problem, but they would then be an extremist. Something I am not, I think it's well documented and proven that CCM will split churches just to please the few that fight so hard to have it.

"worship pastor" is an extra-biblical term. But you're reading more into it than there is. I totally agree with you about the centrality of the Word in the service, no matter the format. Can't speak for everyone, but at my church, that still stands.

Absolutely, we have Gods word for a reason, it's our guide to life, we are to follow it. There is a problem here in Missouri with certain groups splitting from the Missouri Baptist Convention because they don't agree and do not ascribe to SBC 2000, and for that reason, many of them are taking the word of God out of context completely.

So, now a projector is worldly? Believe it or not, I agree that it's a shame fewer people read music. But this isn't because of the projector. Society has changed. I could argue that because their noses aren't down in the books, that the singing is better. At our church, we have hymnals and a projector for our traditional service. I hope that's not offensive.

No, the projector is no more worldly than computers or anything like that, but it is completely un-necessary. I still don't know what is wrong with picking up the hymnal and singing from it.

BTW, the "Mind-numbed robots" comment is offensive. You do not know the heart of someone who is worshipping God.

I'm sorry if that offended you, it was not intended to be offensive, I believe it is very easy to know the heart of someone who is "worshiping" God. You can tell by their actions in everyday life exactly where their heart is. Now it's true we ALL sin, some of us more than others, but I believe you can also tell those who are repentant of their sin as well.

No, you can't...unless you don't know a great number of modern Christian songs.

Okay, I'll give you an example. here recently I heard an abomination of Amazing Grace. It was going very good until a part in the chorus where un-necessary words were added. That sickens me, to think Amazing Grace is not good enough to stand on it's own? I can see that rooting back to modern secular music, I can see it plain as day, I'm not sure why anyone else can't see that, it's pretty obvious.

Sorry for your loss, but this has nothing to do with what style of music is played in church. This has to do with your friend's bad choices.

It was meant to illustrate the lifestyle that comes along with CCM. A lifestyle that parrots secular music lifestyles, with sexual immoralities, and people who dress immodestly, temptation around every turn, I see the commercials advertising CCM and they sicken me. With my experience in Music, I can see the secular roots bleeding into what they're selling. That is completely inappropriate for use in worship. Now, granted, what we see advertised on T.V. is not what we have in our churches (I hope) but I can't tell much difference in it.

Um, that Scripture doesn't address CCM, and it doesn't address a link you've invented between music played in church and how someone dresses. We, at my church, do expect our folks to dress in a God-honoring way.....someone visits us for the first time? We're letting 'em in...because they need to hear about Jesus. If they "belong" to us, we'll address inappropriate dress issues.

It most certainly does address CCM. Because a lot of us are offended by it.

But anyway, the Scripture you quoted could just as easily, using your interpretation, be turned around against the traditional bunch. But I think your interpretation is flawed, so I don't buy either direction.

How can it be turned around on the traditionalists? By saying that traditional hymns are offensive? Good luck making an argument for that.

All I'm trying to say is I am standing up for what I feel in my heart is right. God speaks to my heart, and with Him, I am strong. I will not be persuaded, I will not be changed until God feels the need to change my heart. I don't care if I'm the only person on earth with this view (I'm not) only God will change my mind, and until he does, I will remain as stubborn as I have been on this.

Understand I don't hate those who enjoy CCM. I love you all, but you need to understand, no argument you can bring will sway me, I am who I am, God uses that, I'm used to going against the grain, and God teaches us in His word that as Christians, the mere profession of our faith makes us rebellious against the world, and that is exactly the way I see my argument here, I will rebel against the world all the days of my life. Nobody ever said following Christ was easy, We may have to agree to disagree on this, and go on. I hold my views very close to my heart, I have other views that I can imagine you being completely on board with, such as our need to evangelize the lost (especially the Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormon's) and there are ways to do that, ways that until recently I didn't even think about.

Let's face it, as I have said earlier, it would appear that we are at an impasse.

Blessings,
Todd

 

[annsni]

Well, I can say that I'm offended by you calling Amazing Grace - My Chains are Gone an abomination. The chorus was written by a man who's heart is so on fire for God and who just spent this past weekend working with college students (my hubby was there). The words are:

My chains are gone, I've been set free
My God my Savior has ransomed me
And like a flood, His mercy reigns
Unending love, amazing grace

So what is bad about that??

 

[tinytim]

It is easy to see which side causes splits...

The side that takes stands that are not found in the Bible.

Yes, our church sings this every week.. I have tried to change the song.. but they don't want it changed... the tears fly each week when it is sung.

If you consider that an abomination, then something is seriously wrong with your theology.

And you will probably not like Heaven.. since Heaven is going to be a glorious place.. not a quiet, solemn, no emotional type place...

But by the time you get there, you will learn that you have let Satan steal a gift from you..

IF you can play your guitar as well as you pridefully claim, you should be using it in everyway to glorify God.

 

[tinytim]

Oh, I am offended too.

You traditionalists, take stands that have no scripture to back you up, you offend everyone that does not like hymns, and then say that WE shouldn't offend you....

Take your own medicine, and quit playing the pharisee by implying that you are better because you don't use CCM.

The church splits that you speak of is happening because Christians are standing up to traditional, phariseeical, religious people.

Standing up for God may cause splits.

(edited because I reread what I wrote, and it didn't sound nice )

 

[sag38]

Tiny, I'd have to agree. So far, I haven't seen one scripture to support that CCM, in and of itself, is sinful. It's opinion and personal taste driven more than it is anything else.

 

[Joshua Rhodes]

t93, welcome to the BB music argument... you fit in right nicely.

 

[nodak]

I don't think denigrating each other is gonna bring anyone into the body of Christ.

But then, I don't think either side in this dog fight has the right to judge others.

Neither do I think churches that do not accept BFM2000 are rejecting scripture or guilty of dividing Christ any more than those that accept it. (Even in Missouri.)

Now, what I HAVE found edifying is talking this over with a young music minister (he prefers worship minister, I don't, and will explain why in a minute.)

Here is basically what he told me, in a nutshell, in my words, and therefore liable to misunderstanding him, but best I can do:

The problem is so many churches are trying to go two directions at once. Before you pick the music style, or the lyrics, or any other part of the service including sermon style, you must define your mission.

Some see that mission as the forthtelling of the gospel to the lost and educating the believer. Those folks are more likely to prefer the hymns (old OR new). They are more likely to prefer either old style evangelistic preaching or expository preaching. They likely hold that there should be a marked difference between the Christians and the non believers, and between the church and the world. They are not concerned with fitting in with popular culture, nor with making those comfortable in modern culture feel comfortable the instant they enter the church. (So if you arrive late and don't know where you should be in the hymnal, they figure you need that discomfort to discipline you into being on time.) These folks view WORSHIP as something done privately, just between the believer and the Lord. As he put it, they often find contemporary worship services as embarrassing as modern public displays of affection between sweethearts.

On the other hand, some see worship as the purpose of the service. They don't come to church to forthtell the gospel or to disciple believers. They come to experience corporately a deeply intimate connection with the Lord. They are likely to prefer music (new or old) that focuses either on praising God or on expressing their own feelings toward God. As he put it, they come to engage their emotions rather than their minds, and simpler music forms and simpler lyrics lend themselves well to that. They are more comfortable with topical preaching that focuses on their feelings and needs. They feel the church can safely reflect modern culture, and fear giving the impression people must choose modern culture or the church. They view STUDY and SOULWINNING as things done privately and individually, and are often embarrassed by what they perceive as the coldness of traditional churches.

It just might be that there is room in the body of Christ for both of those callings.

It just might be that each soul must go before the Lord and settle this for his or herself, and act accordingly without judging those that think differently.

That just might allow for more cooperation and less church divisions. And then again, God just might be using this to grow the church by those very divisions. (So a church splits. Maybe that town NEEDS another Baptist church to win the lost!)

About the only "dumb" thing he said, in my clearly not very humble opinion (did I mention I used to be his teacher at church many many many years ago and am so proud of him!) was that from the "stage", he loves using powerpoint because people are looking up at the Lord when they sing. Uh, no dear, they are looking up at the screen.

So I will continue to call him a music minister, since I fall into that first group. And I reminded him the elevated area in the front of the church is not a stage for performances. And he (smart young man--someone taught him well LOL) replied, yes ma'am.

 

[tinytim]

It just might be that there is room in the body of Christ for both of those callings.

.

With this I agree.. although, I see Sunday morning at 11 more of your second choice, (except for topical sermons :wavey: ) Our Sunday evenings, are much more intellectually involved.

Then we have a deep, deep Bible study on Wednesday evenings.
Even to the point of debating Calvinism and Arminianism...
And different theologies.

So even in our church, we have a balance between intellectual services, and emotional services....

We have to realize that not everyone is intellectually designed. Some think out of the right side of their brain, which is more creative and emotional.

So I do think there is room for both types of services...


What bothers me is when people judge people and imply that they not as holy as their side. That does not have to happen.

If a person comes to a church they should accept the style of that church.... not cause division.. .(AND IT CUTS BOTH WAYS)

It would be just as wrong for a traditionalist to come to our church and stir up trouble by saying that we are sinning by using some CCM, as it would a CMMist... (see I can coin phrases too:laugh: )to join a traditional church and try tell them they are sinning by using hymns.

A simple answer would to be go where God leads you.

 

[rbell]

Actually syncopation started in the middle ages with Ars nova, and has been embraced by many pagans, not just voodoo as their method of wroship.

Please name for me a hymn that uses syncopation.

Don't have a hymnal in front of me, but one example immediate: "I will Sing the Wondrous Story" (tune WONDROUS STORY). Exactly what are the men doing on the chorus? Being pagan, in your estimation.

Okay, I'll give you an example. here recently I heard an abomination of Amazing Grace. It was going very good until a part in the chorus where un-necessary words were added. That sickens me, to think Amazing Grace is not good enough to stand on it's own? I can see that rooting back to modern secular music, I can see it plain as day, I'm not sure why anyone else can't see that, it's pretty obvious.

One of the silliest arguments I've seen lately. What, is Amazing Grace now elevated with Scripture? Good gracious. Not to mention...that song's arrangement has exposed many more people to "the original." It would seem you would like that.

Never elevate a song to Scriptural status...unless it is Scripture itself.

At one time it was, but that is not a valid argument here. You should not use any melodies that chase after worldly secular music, sure the piano or organ wasn't around back then, but the guitar was. Oh yes, nobody really knows how far back the fretted instrument goes, because it has been traced back to many centuries B. C.

The above quote responded to my statement:

Well, at one time, the service you enjoy was a "contemporary service." Research the objections to the piano, the organ, and polyphonic singing offered by critics of the time. Thing is, I still love and enjoy traditional stuff, and enjoy it being a part of my worship, and a part of my church life.

You dodged my whole point, because you cannot answer it without impugning your position.

No, the projector is no more worldly than computers or anything like that, but it is completely un-necessary. I still don't know what is wrong with picking up the hymnal and singing from it.

Nothing's wrong with it. But you added "projector" to the list of "everything wrong with them churches." If it ain't a problem (ethically/spiritually) then why list it? It sounds like we're just making a list of "stuff I don't like." That's called preference.

All I'm trying to say is I am standing up for what I feel in my heart is right. God speaks to my heart, and with Him, I am strong. I will not be persuaded, I will not be changed until God feels the need to change my heart. I don't care if I'm the only person on earth with this view (I'm not) only God will change my mind, and until he does, I will remain as stubborn as I have been on this.

Understand I don't hate those who enjoy CCM. I love you all, but you need to understand, no argument you can bring will sway me, I am who I am, God uses that, I'm used to going against the grain, and God teaches us in His word that as Christians, the mere profession of our faith makes us rebellious against the world, and that is exactly the way I see my argument here, I will rebel against the world all the days of my life. Nobody ever said following Christ was easy, We may have to agree to disagree on this, and go on. I hold my views very close to my heart, I have other views that I can imagine you being completely on board with, such as our need to evangelize the lost (especially the Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormon's) and there are ways to do that, ways that until recently I didn't even think about.

Let's face it, as I have said earlier, it would appear that we are at an impasse.

I guess we are. Sad thing is, though...there are many of us that embrace old, ancient, and modern expressions of worship...that are perfectly happy to see others "stick with one" style. I'm one of them. You want to say, "I don't like it?" Go ahead...that's great with me. But as soon as you say, "God's against it," we have a problem, because Scripture does not bear that out. It does bear out submitting to one another in love...which repeats my thought: I'm fine with your particular of worship style, and I celebrate it.

 

[Sopranette]

Well, one thing's for sure. Human emotions are inextricable from music. That much is evident from this thread, no matter which style you personally adhere to.

love,

Sopranette

 

[tinytim]

Well, one thing's for sure. Human emotions are inextricable from music. That much is evident from this thread, no matter which style you personally adhere to.

love,

Sopranette

You are right God designed music to relate to our emotions.. to make music intellectual, is to thwart God's design.

 

[rbell]

You are right God designed music to relate to our emotions.. to make music intellectual, is to thwart God's design.

Sorry...I just had to point out that you used the word "thwart."

What a silly word. Who came up with that word? It sounds like it means something other than what it means.

 

[Amy.G]

Sorry...I just had to point out that you used the word "thwart."

What a silly word. Who came up with that word? It sounds like it means something other than what it means.

I had a thwart once. A little compound w cleared it right up.

 

[rbell]

I had a thwart once. A little compound w cleared it right up.

Did you use Compound thW?

 

[Amy.G]

Did you use Compound thW?

Yeth.


:laugh: