Gun Laws and Socialized Medicine in Europe.

[FollowTheWay]

Do Americans living in the UK and mainland Europe think the gun laws and socialised medicine are problematic having experienced them first hand?

I have an acquaintance, shall we say, who is in the Army. My brother-in-law’s father was in the Falklands, as was an ex-girlfriend’s father. Apart from those three exceptions, neither I nor anyone I know has ever seen a gun used in anger. Isn’t that disgusting?!

Do you know, we’ve only ever had three mass shootings in our entire history as a nation? And only one of those was in a school! I mean, compared to you we’ve been around for ages!

And to top it off, after every single one, we tightened up the gun laws. After the school shooting, we also tightened up procedures regarding police departments sharing intelligence. Not like your government, who see vast numbers of their citizens die and obstinately refuse to do anything about it. Now when a government refuses to intervene, even to save their citizen’s lives, that’s freedom!

In 2016, we only had 26 people killed by guns in the UK. 26! And only 16 of those were murders! You had 11,004 murders over the same period! We’re just not trying hard enough.

I mean, our police don’t even carry guns! Apparently “there’s no need to”, because practically none of the criminals have them. Do you know, only 44 people have been killed by UK police since 2000? And that’s not even just the ones they killed on purpose! It includes accidents, which just seems like cheating to me. Look, here’s a list!

List of killings by law enforcement officers in the United Kingdom - Wikipedia

And the healthcare! Everyone I know, when they get sick, just pitch up at their GP’s and get an appointment for free. And then the GP prescribes them stuff for almost nothing, or refers them to a specialist for free! Free! Bloody layabouts!

You know, now I think about it, not a single person I know has ever gone bankrupt after getting sick. My mum had breast cancer- do you have any idea how expensive radiotherapy is? And then a five year course of pills, and supplements to stop those pills giving her osteoporosis, and that leech got it all for free!

 

[JonC]

I don't know about the gun laws, but I can say socialized medicine can be very problematic. But some of this is simply American expectations.

I have seen people denied care as the condition had not become serious enough for treatment. I've seen doctors examining patients in the hallways because they didn't yet warrant a room. Space becomes a premium. My wife still talks of Europe as a 3rd world country when comes to medical care.

BUT they do provide excellent care when you get in. And our stay was a week when we would have been sent home the next day in the U.S. So there are pros and cons.

 

[Revmitchell]

Socialized medicine is a problem because the people who are purchasing the health care are not paying for it. That causes prices to be expensive

 

[FollowTheWay]

I don't know about the gun laws, but I can say socialized medicine can be very problematic. But some of this is simply American expectations.

I have seen people denied care as the condition had not become serious enough for treatment. I've seen doctors examining patients in the hallways because they didn't yet warrant a room. Space becomes a premium. My wife still talks of Europe as a 3rd world country when comes to medical care.

BUT they do provide excellent care when you get in. And our stay was a week when we would have been sent home the next day in the U.S. So there are pros and cons.

Did you live in Europe or are you basing this on a vacation?

 

[JonC]

Did you live in Europe or are you basing this on a vacation?

I lived there.

The tax rate was horrible.....over 50%. But you didn't pay for health care or education (your education path was established early on).

The running joke was if you were dumb and healthy Europe was no place to live.

 

[FollowTheWay]

I lived there.

The tax rate was horrible.....over 50%. But you didn't pay for health care or education (your education path was established early on).

The running joke was if you were dumb and healthy Europe was no place to live.

But no one has ever gone bankrupt due to a medical catastrophe in Europe. That regularly happens in the U.S. And everyone has health insurance. People don't go to the ER with a common cold, right?

 

[JonC]

But no one has ever gone bankrupt due to a medical catastrophe in Europe. That regularly happens in the U.S. And everyone has health insurance. People don't go to the ER with a common cold, right?

No. You might die before you get treated but there were no worries over medical bills.

And people didn't seek treatment for mundane things (they knew they wouldn't get it anyway). I have known older people to die of pneumonia that could have been prevented. But that can happen anywhere.

 

[FollowTheWay]

But no one has ever gone bankrupt due to a medical catastrophe in Europe. That regularly happens in the U.S. And everyone has health insurance. People don't go to the ER with a common cold, right?

Did you ever hear about the number of mass shootings there as opposed to here. The UK has had 6 in their entire history. Why do we think this is good for America?

 

[JonC]

Did you ever hear about the number of mass shootings there as opposed to here. The UK has had 6 in their entire history. Why do we think this is good for America?

A few shootings, some stabbings, but it was a safer place than many of our cities.

As far as college violence goes, we also have to keep in mind college, while free, was not a right. Most were not allowed to attend university. So there is that element that we have (those engaged in things other than academics) that seemed to be absent.

 

[JonC]

Why do we think this is good for America?

I suspect we think it good for America because we were founded in a freedom absent many other nations.

The percentage of people who shoot other people is very low in relation to gun ownership. The percent of people who intentionally shoot other people is even lower.

Some believe constitutional rights should be protected and criminals prosecuted (which isn't happening). I believe we are missing the problem (it is people, not guns). Look at the UK and the number of knife attacks....its just stupid. Taking away guns didn't change the people (but it did leave the innocent defenseless).

 

[Revmitchell]

The people of the UK can never prevent their government from being taken over by Islam or dictators. That cannot happen in the US. Nuff said

 

[Adonia]

Did you ever hear about the number of mass shootings there as opposed to here. The UK has had 6 in their entire history. Why do we think this is good for America?

Gun violence is on the rise in Britain despite the fact that it is very hard to legally obtain one. But okay, so shootings are low, but knife crime is of epic proportions and the use of acid in attacking others is also very common.

We do not think shootings are good for America (where did you get that idea?) - I do not know anyone who thinks this is a good thing, but being able to protect oneself and family with a particular firearm of your own choosing is indeed a good thing.

 

[just-want-peace]

--------We do not think shootings are good for America (where did you get that idea?) ---------

Typical liberal approach - restate the comment so they can NOW argue against their "interpretation" of what you actually say!! (standard CTB tactic.)

 

[Wingman68]

Do you know how to catch wild Pigs? | theawakening

How socialism/communism catches the herd. Our fence has how many sides up? The UK is already toast. Their ‘subjects’ brag about it here. Enjoy. We will fight, we will win. WWG1WGA

 

[kyredneck]

being able to protect oneself and family with a particular firearm of your own choosing is indeed a good thing.

How Gun Ownership Saves Lives

"In the United States, burglars generally try to break into homes that are unoccupied. We tend to take this fact for granted, but it isn’t true everywhere. There are advantages to breaking into residences when the owners are home: you can force them to tell you where valuables and drugs are kept, rather than having to search. And if a woman is present you may choose to assault her. This is why, in countries where gun ownership is rare, invasions of occupied homes are much more common.

Last week the Telegraph reported: “Half of burglaries on occupied homes as thieves grow bolder.”

Half of burglaries in Britain now take place while householders are inside their homes, as thieves become emboldened by police inaction.

Figures show 58 percent of burglaries happen at occupied properties, as campaigners said criminals no longer feared being caught in the act.
***
Analysis of the most recent Office for National Statistics crime figures shows the proportion of burglaries targeting properties when someone is at home has soared in recent years. The Crime Survey for England and Wales found such incidents made up 44 percent of raids in 2004-2005, but have since shot up to 58 percent in 2016-2017.

How do the numbers compare in the United States? It is surprisingly hard to find up to date data; this 2010 report by the Department of Justice doesn’t seem to have been superseded. The DOJ report found that the household was occupied in 28 percent of residential burglaries. In 26 percent of burglaries where someone was present, one or more individuals were physically harmed by the burglar or burglars.

So burglars are around twice as likely to invade occupied residences in the U.K. than in the United States. Why is that? Certainly not because the American police are any more likely to interrupt a burglary in process. The obvious answer is that hardly any homeowners in the U.K. possess firearms, while gun ownership is common in the U.S. Bluntly put, a burglar who invades an occupied residence in the United States takes a not-immaterial risk that he may be shot by his intended victim. As, for example, here, here, here and here.

The conclusion: if gun-grabbers get their way and the Second Amendment is effectively nullified, many more Americans will be terrorized by home invasions; more will be injured or killed; and more women will be raped."

 

[kyredneck]

All within the last two weeks:

Police sheriff calls US woman 'shining example' for shooting and killing escaped prisoner

Warren homeowner shoots man during burglary

No charges filed against 74-year-old woman who fatally shot burglar

Detroit Woman Leaving For Church Fatally Shoots Burglar During Home Invasion

 

[Yeshua1]

Do Americans living in the UK and mainland Europe think the gun laws and socialised medicine are problematic having experienced them first hand?

I have an acquaintance, shall we say, who is in the Army. My brother-in-law’s father was in the Falklands, as was an ex-girlfriend’s father. Apart from those three exceptions, neither I nor anyone I know has ever seen a gun used in anger. Isn’t that disgusting?!

Do you know, we’ve only ever had three mass shootings in our entire history as a nation? And only one of those was in a school! I mean, compared to you we’ve been around for ages!

And to top it off, after every single one, we tightened up the gun laws. After the school shooting, we also tightened up procedures regarding police departments sharing intelligence. Not like your government, who see vast numbers of their citizens die and obstinately refuse to do anything about it. Now when a government refuses to intervene, even to save their citizen’s lives, that’s freedom!

In 2016, we only had 26 people killed by guns in the UK. 26! And only 16 of those were murders! You had 11,004 murders over the same period! We’re just not trying hard enough.

I mean, our police don’t even carry guns! Apparently “there’s no need to”, because practically none of the criminals have them. Do you know, only 44 people have been killed by UK police since 2000? And that’s not even just the ones they killed on purpose! It includes accidents, which just seems like cheating to me. Look, here’s a list!

List of killings by law enforcement officers in the United Kingdom - Wikipedia

And the healthcare! Everyone I know, when they get sick, just pitch up at their GP’s and get an appointment for free. And then the GP prescribes them stuff for almost nothing, or refers them to a specialist for free! Free! Bloody layabouts!

You know, now I think about it, not a single person I know has ever gone bankrupt after getting sick. My mum had breast cancer- do you have any idea how expensive radiotherapy is? And then a five year course of pills, and supplements to stop those pills giving her osteoporosis, and that leech got it all for free!

Do you know that socialized medicine forces many who are not the very richest to come to America to have surgeries, as they will not be able to get qualified and approved to have that done in time to save them? That its based upon those who can contribute the most, as in skills, age, or wealth? And that the problem is not with guns themselves, as those cities who actually allow for guns to be worn and used have a much lower crime rate than those areas who refuse to allow for guns!

If I was a terrorist, or a mass murderer, would I risk going to a city or a store/place that permits firearms to be used, or go to where they cannot be used by private citizens?

 

[just-want-peace]

Do you know that socialized medicine forces many who are not the very richest to come to America to have surgeries, as they will not be able to get qualified and approved to have that done in time to save them? That its based upon those who can contribute the most, as in skills, age, or wealth? And that the problem is not with guns themselves, as those cities who actually allow for guns to be worn and used have a much lower crime rate than those areas who refuse to allow for guns!

If I was a terrorist, or a mass murderer, would I risk going to a city or a store/place that permits firearms to be used, or go to where they cannot be used by private citizens?

Careful, you're trying to use logic on a liberal; same basic fallacy as "casting pearls before swine!"

 

[Matt Black]

I lived there.

The tax rate was horrible.....over 50%. But you didn't pay for health care or education (your education path was established early on).

The running joke was if you were dumb and healthy Europe was no place to live.

The top marginal income tax rate is 45%...but you have to be earning over £150K for that

 

[JonC]

The top marginal income tax rate is 45%...but you have to be earning over £150K for that

It wasn't just income tax. (And I've never been to the UK...my cousin lived there, though).

My main point, however, is that I believe most Americans who are in favor of a socialistic health care system see the pros but ignore the cons. They are accustomed to a type of medical care that they would be forfeiting. Perhaps it is worth it. Maybe what would be lost is minimal. But Americans need to understand that we are not looking at the same type of care they receive now.