Guns and the Church

[Darrell C]

Not sure when I have received a response that I can call a strawman and know no-one is going to argue about it, lol.

That was funny. This is going down as one of the best responses ever posted.


God bless.

 

[Revmitchell]

Nowhere, absolutely nowhere in the New Testament do we find Jesus or any Christian using a lethal weapon for self defense, or making an allowance for it. My view is the biblical view rather than the view found deceitfully in propaganda published by the NRA.

The New Testament places of worship were very dangerous places—as testified to in the New Testament—but we do not find in the New Testament any mention at all of Christians defending themselves or their families through violent means; indeed, violence belongs to the wicked—not to the righteous.

If you want to carry a gun and the laws of your community permit it, that is your business—but taking a lethal weapon into a place of worship is a shameful abomination that makes a mockery of Jesus and the principles that He taught.

Dying for Christ or in defense of the principles taught in the New Testament is not to be feared—it is a privilege that few people in the Western world experience today.

The teaching of Jesus is expressly clear and irrefutable,

Like 12:4. “I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that have no more that they can do.
5. “But I will warn you whom to fear: fear the One who, after He has killed, has authority to cast into hell; yes, I tell you, fear Him!”

Ok you have yet to support your abomination claim. The Luke passage makes a comparison does not set doctrine on ccl in a church. You need to avoid taking scripture out of context to fit your presuppositions.

The teaching of Jesus are expressly clear and irrefutable. This issues just does not happen to be one of them. It is not even in view in that passage you quoted nor anywhere in scripture.

 

[HankD]

This calls to mind Lot, who was willing to give his daughters up, which most of us would fight to the very death before doing. Still scratch my head when I read he was "just."

But the fact is, Christians without known number have over the years refused to take an offensive position, and died in and for their faith. While I don't take that view in a hyper-literal sense, I think we are again indulging in speculation, and don't think any of us would know precisely what we would do if faced with a situation like those presented. I can only look to how I have reacted in the past, and think it a pretty good bet that I am not going to stand idly by.

I think most of this has in large part how we approach things. I do not take my wife places where bad things can happen, that is just common sense and the first step in avoiding being in a situation where I have to find out how I would react. While I go places, neighborhoods, which are high crime areas, when I am there, I mind my own business, lol.

So I don't think anyone has implied they would stand by, simply a matter of how those situations will be dealt with should they arise. And it goes back to the point of those who are going to kill, regardless of whether they have guns or not, are going to kill.

I think all of us would want to be certain that however we react, that it would be motivated by God. I think there are those out there sitting around hoping something like that would happen. Those are the ones we should worry about.


God bless.

I suppose I have been affected by my tour of duty in the US Air Force during the 60's. I was stationed on the now defunct (heaven help us) Ballistic Missile Early Warning System (BMEWS). This was a line of defense of which my sector went from upstate New York to Greenland.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballistic_Missile_Early_Warning_System

We watched and waited for the imminent thermo-nuclear bombing of America and were told that if we were commanded to push a button we would do so without asking any questions. We didn't know if after we pushed the button it was a real attack or not or if our own defenses would be triggered or not.

One Russian thermo nuclear device had the power of 60 megatons of TNT and would blow a crater in the earth about 30 miles across, enough to annihilate all the burrows of NY City. the Russians terrified the planet by publicly testing these weapons from hell. The power of the stars had appeared upon the earth.

I was saved while in the service and even after being saved I had no compulsion about "pushing a button" whether in defense or retaliation of my beloved country. Yes I had a preliminary struggle with the idea of killing anybody. However we are to protect the innocent as commanded by God. Every soldier and police officer understands this. Perhaps not all of them knowing it is God's decree.

Romans 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.


HankD

 

[Rolfe]

...weapons owned by civilians are unnecessary and lead to bloodshed, whether accidental...

Perhaps in England...

*laugh*

 

[Revmitchell]

Weapons owned by civilians are unnecessary only if you have no criminals in the world or you trust your government not to become tyrannical.

 

[Craigbythesea]

Craig - David was a shepherd. He was given the responsibility to watch over a flock. He protected them from predators with the weapons of his time.

If you had a flock of sheep, what would you use to protect them from wolves, bears, and other predators? Would you only use the weapons we read of in scripture? Or would you at least buy a shotgun?

If not, then are you being a good steward of that which has been given to you, placed under your responsibility?

If yes, then why are others--your family, for example--less worthy of protection than the sheep?

If I had a flock of sheep, I would protect them just as David did—with fire. Wolves are very swift and agile animals that hunt in packs in the darkness of night; therefore a sword would be useless and a shotgun would not be much better. A man fighting them alone in the dark with a fully automatic rifle might possibly survive one such attack, but eventually he would lose the fight and be killed.

However, wolves are very afraid of fire, and for millennia shepherds have kept wolves away from their sheep by keeping the sheep in pens during the night and scaring the wolves away with fiery torches. When the sun comes up, the sheep are unscathed and so are the wolves—animals that are very important to the environment because they kill and eat herbivores, keeping their numbers in check. For David, that would have been very important because too many rabbits would have eaten the grass that his sheep needed for food.

 

[Craigbythesea]

A man who will not do everything he can to protect his family is worthless. Period.

Except for the Qur’an and the Hadith, very few religious texts teach such a thing, and this is a good example of where Islamic teaching has infiltrated some of our Baptist churches. Indeed the Qur’an and the Hadith teach that all Muslims MUST defend themselves, their families, their property, and the Islamic faith—the exact opposite of what the New Testament teaches.

 

[Craigbythesea]

Ok you have yet to support your abomination claim. The Luke passage makes a comparison does not set doctrine on ccl in a church. You need to avoid taking scripture out of context to fit your presuppositions.

The teaching of Jesus are expressly clear and irrefutable. This issues just does not happen to be one of them. It is not even in view in that passage you quoted nor anywhere in scripture.

Throughout all of Luke chapter 12, Jesus is speaking to a crowd of “so many thousands of people”, and He did not limit His instructions to people in a nonthreatening situation. Indeed, his instructions were to people in all circumstances and situations—including those who would soon be killed for their Christian faith. Therefore, the argument that “Jesus was not talking to me; He was talking to someone else in a different situation” is nothing but copout for people who do not like it when the teaching of Jesus become an inconvenience.

 

[Rob_BW]

Except for the Qur’an and the Hadith, very few religious texts teach such a thing, and this is a good example of where Islamic teaching has infiltrated some of our Baptist churches. Indeed the Qur’an and the Hadith teach that all Muslims MUST defend themselves, their families, their property, and the Islamic faith—the exact opposite of what the New Testament teaches.

Rescue the weak and the needy; deliver them from the hand of the wicked.”

Was that the Bible or the Quran?

 

[Don]

If I had a flock of sheep, I would protect them just as David did—with fire. Wolves are very swift and agile animals that hunt in packs in the darkness of night; therefore a sword would be useless and a shotgun would not be much better. A man fighting them alone in the dark with a fully automatic rifle might possibly survive one such attack, but eventually he would lose the fight and be killed.

However, wolves are very afraid of fire, and for millennia shepherds have kept wolves away from their sheep by keeping the sheep in pens during the night and scaring the wolves away with fiery torches. When the sun comes up, the sheep are unscathed and so are the wolves—animals that are very important to the environment because they kill and eat herbivores, keeping their numbers in check. For David, that would have been very important because too many rabbits would have eaten the grass that his sheep needed for food.

Take another look at 1 Sam 17:34-35. David says he killed the lion and the bear that attacked the sheep that he was responsible for. He didn't just use fire.

 

[Revmitchell]

Throughout all of Luke chapter 12, Jesus is speaking to a crowd of “so many thousands of people”, and He did not limit His instructions to people in a nonthreatening situation. Indeed, his instructions were to people in all circumstances and situations—including those who would soon be killed for their Christian faith. Therefore, the argument that “Jesus was not talking to me; He was talking to someone else in a different situation” is nothing but copout for people who do not like it when the teaching of Jesus become an inconvenience.

Now you have just twisted my words. I will leave you to it.

 

[Revmitchell]

Except for the Qur’an and the Hadith, very few religious texts teach such a thing, and this is a good example of where Islamic teaching has infiltrated some of our Baptist churches. Indeed the Qur’an and the Hadith teach that all Muslims MUST defend themselves, their families, their property, and the Islamic faith—the exact opposite of what the New Testament teaches.

Really? You have to call it islamic teaching? Good grief I suppose when you have no real position to defend turn to this kind of junk.

 

[HankD]

If I had a flock of sheep, I would protect them just as David did—with fire. Wolves are very swift and agile animals that hunt in packs in the darkness of night; therefore a sword would be useless and a shotgun would not be much better. A man fighting them alone in the dark with a fully automatic rifle might possibly survive one such attack, but eventually he would lose the fight and be killed.

However, wolves are very afraid of fire, and for millennia shepherds have kept wolves away from their sheep by keeping the sheep in pens during the night and scaring the wolves away with fiery torches. When the sun comes up, the sheep are unscathed and so are the wolves—animals that are very important to the environment because they kill and eat herbivores, keeping their numbers in check. For David, that would have been very important because too many rabbits would have eaten the grass that his sheep needed for food.

1 Samuel 21:11 And the servants of Achish said unto him, Is not this David the king of the land? did they not sing one to another of him in dances, saying, Saul hath slain his thousands, and David his ten thousands?

And these were not animals.

There will be war until Jesus returns, the people of God defend their own.


HankD

 

[TCassidy]

Not to mention God denied David the privilege of building the Temple because of his reputation as a warrior. He was "a bloody man." And, yet, a "man after God's own heart."

 

[Craigbythesea]

Rescue the weak and the needy; deliver them from the hand of the wicked.”

Was that the Bible or the Quran?

Psalms 82:4 “Rescue the weak and the needy;
deliver them from the hand of the wicked.” (NRSV)

Asaph, the writer of Psalm 82, was a Levite of the family of Gershom, one of the sons of Barachiah, and an eminent musician appointed by David to preside over the sacred choral services which he organized more than 1,000 years before Christ Jesus ushered in the New Covenant.

 

[Craigbythesea]

Take another look at 1 Sam 17:34-35. David says he killed the lion and the bear that attacked the sheep that he was responsible for. He didn't just use fire.

1 Sam. 17:34. But David said to Saul, “Your servant used to keep sheep for his father; and whenever a lion or a bear came, and took a lamb from the flock,
35. I went after it and struck it down, rescuing the lamb from its mouth; and if it turned against me, I would catch it by the jaw, strike it down, and kill it.
36. Your servant has killed both lions and bears; and this uncircumcised Philistine shall be like one of them, since he has defied the armies of the living God.” (NRSV)

Yes, David told Saul that he had killed both lions and bears. He also told Saul that if the lion or the bear turned on him, he would catch it by the jaw, strike it down, and kill it. However, the Bible does not tell us whether David was telling Saul the truth and accurately recounting actual events. And let us not forget that according to Saul, David was “just a boy.” David probably took this as in insult and replied to Saul telling him a boastful and somewhat exaggerated story—‘a boy catching lions and bears by their jaws, striking them down, and killing them.’ I believe the Bible, but I do not believe the fibs that we find people in the Bible telling other people. Moreover, is the purpose of these verses of Scripture to tell us that Christians should take guns to church with them to defend themselves from would be assailants?

 

[HankD]

1 Sam. 17:34. But David said to Saul, “Your servant used to keep sheep for his father; and whenever a lion or a bear came, and took a lamb from the flock,
35. I went after it and struck it down, rescuing the lamb from its mouth; and if it turned against me, I would catch it by the jaw, strike it down, and kill it.
36. Your servant has killed both lions and bears; and this uncircumcised Philistine shall be like one of them, since he has defied the armies of the living God.” (NRSV)

Yes, David told Saul that he had killed both lions and bears. He also told Saul that if the lion or the bear turned on him, he would catch it by the jaw, strike it down, and kill it. However, the Bible does not tell us whether David was telling Saul the truth and accurately recounting actual events. And let us not forget that according to Saul, David was “just a boy.” David probably took this as in insult and replied to Saul telling him a boastful and somewhat exaggerated story—‘a boy catching lions and bears by their jaws, striking them down, and killing them.’ I believe the Bible, but I do not believe the fibs that we find people in the Bible telling other people. Moreover, is the purpose of these verses of Scripture to tell us that Christians should take guns to church with them to defend themselves from would be assailants?

You have got to be kidding Craig, David was "a man of blood", a warrior who killed not only bears and lions but the human enemies of God. He began his terror campaign against the enemies of God by killing Goliath with a Hebrew style slingshot. You do believe that portion of scripture is not an exaggeration don't you?

HankD

 

[Don]

1 Sam. 17:34. But David said to Saul, “Your servant used to keep sheep for his father; and whenever a lion or a bear came, and took a lamb from the flock,
35. I went after it and struck it down, rescuing the lamb from its mouth; and if it turned against me, I would catch it by the jaw, strike it down, and kill it.
36. Your servant has killed both lions and bears; and this uncircumcised Philistine shall be like one of them, since he has defied the armies of the living God.” (NRSV)

Yes, David told Saul that he had killed both lions and bears. He also told Saul that if the lion or the bear turned on him, he would catch it by the jaw, strike it down, and kill it. However, the Bible does not tell us whether David was telling Saul the truth and accurately recounting actual events. And let us not forget that according to Saul, David was “just a boy.” David probably took this as in insult and replied to Saul telling him a boastful and somewhat exaggerated story—‘a boy catching lions and bears by their jaws, striking them down, and killing them.’ I believe the Bible, but I do not believe the fibs that we find people in the Bible telling other people. Moreover, is the purpose of these verses of Scripture to tell us that Christians should take guns to church with them to defend themselves from would be assailants?

Let me get this straight: 1 Sam 13:14, Samuel tells Saul that the Lord has sought a man after His own heart; 1 Sam 16:12, God reveals to Samuel that this man is David.

God chose a "fibber," and describes that "fibber" as a man after His own heart?

You diminish scripture, sir. Tread carefully.

 

[Craigbythesea]

Let me get this straight: 1 Sam 13:14, Samuel tells Saul that the Lord has sought a man after His own heart; 1 Sam 16:12, God reveals to Samuel that this man is David.

God chose a "fibber," and describes that "fibber" as a man after His own heart?

You diminish scripture, sir. Tread carefully.

Okay, I will not diminish Scripture, but lay it out as the Scripture reveals it. David was a bragger, a liar, a sexual pervert (a voyeur), an adulterer, and a murder! Boys do not have the physical strength to catch lions and bears by their jaws, strike them down, and kill them! The plain and simple fact is that David lied to Saul. He lied because he did not have the moral backbone in his personal life to be honest with Saul. Later in his life, during an evening walk on the roof of his house, he saw a beautiful young woman bathing herself, and instead of being a moral and upright man, he lusted after to the point that he was willing to send her husband to the front line in a battle where he would be killed. “But the thing that David had done displeased the Lord, and the Lord sent Nathan to David.” Nathan told David a story about a rich man who had “very many flocks and herds,” and poor man who owned only one lamb, a “little ewe lamb, which he had bought. He brought it up, and it grew up with him and with his children; it used to eat of his meager fare, and drink from his cup, and lie in his bosom, and it was like a daughter to him. Now there came a traveler to the rich man, and he was loath to take one of his own flock or herd to prepare for the wayfarer who had come to him, but he took the poor man's lamb, and prepared that for the guest who had come to him.” However, David’s heart and mind were so extremely depraved that when he heard the story he did not even recognize himself in the story until “Nathan said to David, ‘You are the man!’ Thus says the Lord, the God of Israel: I anointed you king over Israel, and I rescued you from the hand of Saul; I gave you your master’s house, and your master’s wives into your bosom, and gave you the house of Israel and of Judah; and if that had been too little, I would have added as much more. Why have you despised the word of the Lord, to do what is evil in his sight? You have struck down Uriah the Hittite with the sword, and have taken his wife to be your wife, and have killed him with the sword of the Ammonites. Now therefore the sword shall never depart from your house, for you have despised me, and have taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be your wife.

In 1 Sam. 12 we read,

20. And Samuel said to the people, “Do not be afraid; you have done all this evil, yet do not turn aside from following the Lord, but serve the Lord with all your heart;
21. and do not turn aside after useless things that cannot profit or save, for they are useless.
22. For the Lord will not cast away his people, for his great name’s sake, because it has pleased the Lord to make you a people for himself.
23. Moreover as for me, far be it from me that I should sin against the Lord by ceasing to pray for you; and I will instruct you in the good and the right way.
24. Only fear the Lord, and serve him faithfully with all your heart; for consider what great things he has done for you.
25. But if you still do wickedly, you shall be swept away, both you and your king.”

However, in 1 Sam. 13 we read,

7. Some Hebrews crossed the Jordan to the land of Gad and Gilead. Saul was still at Gilgal, and all the people followed him trembling.
8. He waited seven days, the time appointed by Samuel; but Samuel did not come to Gilgal, and the people began to slip away from Saul.
9. So Saul said, “Bring the burnt offering here to me, and the offerings of well-being.” And he offered the burnt offering.
10. As soon as he had finished offering the burnt offering, Samuel arrived; and Saul went out to meet him and salute him.
11. Samuel said, “What have you done?” Saul replied, “When I saw that the people were slipping away from me, and that you did not come within the days appointed, and that the Philistines were mustering at Michmash,
12. I said, ‘Now the Philistines will come down upon me at Gilgal, and I have not entreated the favor of the Lord’; so I forced myself, and offered the burnt offering.”
13. Samuel said to Saul, “You have done foolishly; you have not kept the commandment of the Lord your God, which he commanded you. The Lord would have established your kingdom over Israel forever,
14. but now your kingdom will not continue; the Lord has sought out a man after his own heart; and the Lord has appointed him to be ruler over his people, because you have not kept what the Lord commanded you.”

Please notice especially v, 12:24,

24. “Only fear the Lord, and serve him faithfully with all your heart; for consider what great things he has done for you.”

David was a man after God’s own heart in that he did the things that the Lord specifically commanded him to do, rather than disobey Him as Saul had done. This does NOT change the fact that David, in his personal life, was a bragger, a liar, a sexual pervert, an adulterer, and a murder! Neither does it change the fact that David repented and confessed his sins to God (Psalm 51).


(All quotations from Scripture are from the NRSV, 1995)

 

[HankD]

Craig we do know that David was a warrior and the other things you brought up because the word of God plainly declares it, however you do not know for sure that David lied about the bear and the lion incident. You may very well be bearing a false witness just because you don't think it was possible. Was not Jehovah the same God as Samson's God? Samson who is also reported in the word as one who was less than perfect (as we also).

One undeniable thing David also did was to protect the people of God from the enemies of God which is presumably what this series of posts is all about howbeit in the church age.

There are others mentioned in the Bible who had a better personal report in the word of God than David who also defended the people of God from the nations that God had given to them to conquer e.g. Joshua and Caleb for instance.

HankD