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Hair
- Thread starter Helen
- Start date
I didn't see this. I'm sorry. It's late now and Barry is coming in Thursday. I'll try to give it the time it deserves, but please understand that although the lead essay here is under my name, it is the work of three people, one of whom is a very respected Greek and Hebrew scholar. So I will take your questions back to them and see what I can do. However I do have to mention that all I was trying to do was dig as deep as I could. I really don't think I am responsible for exegeting everything this may bring up! But I'll remember this is here and get back to it asap. But right now preparing for my husband's homecoming comes first, which I am sure you understand.
Katie,
With all due respect to you, what has this comment done to help this Bible study? Could you please bury the hatchet?
It is unbecoming to you as a gentle and loving sister in the Lord.
I only say this because of the love I have for you and it tears me apart to see the snideness.
Blessings,
suzanne
With all due respect to you, what has this comment done to help this Bible study? Could you please bury the hatchet?
It is unbecoming to you as a gentle and loving sister in the Lord.
I only say this because of the love I have for you and it tears me apart to see the snideness.
Blessings,
suzanne
Concerning First Corinthians, one of the most important passages (IMO) in the book related to its iterpretation for Christians is:
1 Corinthians 3:
1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
They were carnal and everything Paul said was passed through that filter.
Later in the epistle he says the following:
1 Corinthians 13:
11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
13 And now abideth faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.
Carnal Christians get upset when reprimanded.
The painless way is to be a wordless example to them (not always possible).
They should be encouraged when they spontaneously follow the leading of the Spirit in _____ (fill in the blank... attire, hair, whatever).
yes, they-we are big cry-babies, but they are His babies "even as unto babes in Christ".
HankD
1 Corinthians 3:
1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
They were carnal and everything Paul said was passed through that filter.
Later in the epistle he says the following:
1 Corinthians 13:
11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
13 And now abideth faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.
Carnal Christians get upset when reprimanded.
The painless way is to be a wordless example to them (not always possible).
They should be encouraged when they spontaneously follow the leading of the Spirit in _____ (fill in the blank... attire, hair, whatever).
yes, they-we are big cry-babies, but they are His babies "even as unto babes in Christ".
HankD
AmenOriginally posted by Chrysoprasus:
Great work Helen!
But...I have a thought. (amazing, huh?)
God didn't give us our bible in Greek. We do not have to be scholars to understand the bible, or do we?
If God wanted us to be able to understand his word and his commandments without being Greek scholars or having them available, wouldn't He have provided for our English translation to be able to say what it means in a way we could understand?
In other words, if even the simple "long hair" or "covering" are not what they mean, how can we read and study the bible on our own if even the simplest English means something different?
Maybe, just maybe, the word of God is living in a way that makes it so that God wanted those words to say just what they do today.
The only other choice I see is that it's impossible for the average person to understand the bible, and we'd have to have translation upon new translation as new evidence of what the past and future phrases mean.
Gina
I've just been looking up some stuff on the BB for another person, and I have to wonder if you thought it was a snide remark when we were called lesbians for wearing pants? Or is it only me you say things like this too? Have you read this thread? Do you see them on it? No, then nothing wrong with me seeing it first.
RaptureReady
New Member
AmenOriginally posted by Walls:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Chrysoprasus:
Great work Helen!
But...I have a thought. (amazing, huh?
God didn't give us our bible in Greek. We do not have to be scholars to understand the bible, or do we?
If God wanted us to be able to understand his word and his commandments without being Greek scholars or having them available, wouldn't He have provided for our English translation to be able to say what it means in a way we could understand?
In other words, if even the simple "long hair" or "covering" are not what they mean, how can we read and study the bible on our own if even the simplest English means something different?
Maybe, just maybe, the word of God is living in a way that makes it so that God wanted those words to say just what they do today.
The only other choice I see is that it's impossible for the average person to understand the bible, and we'd have to have translation upon new translation as new evidence of what the past and future phrases mean.
Gina
Why are you taking your anger out on me? What have I done to insult you? Have I been mean to you?
Sorry, I have not been involved in the clothing thread so I did not see the comment you mentioned, not did I say that.
Your words are cutting to me and I know don't recall ever doing that to you. My posts are not done with any malice or ill intent. Don't bother answering me, I don't want to be apart of the cannibalism. But feel free to continue to stab me even though I don't reply.
suzanne
KeeperOfMyHome
New Member
The reason you do not see them posting, Katie, is the same reason I do not always post on a topic I may have otherwise been involved in:
#1 - my response may only cause more contention, strife, and discord;
#2I know that the person may have their mind sternly made up on the matter and nothing that I say will change it
#3 - I am praying about a response or forming a suitable reply in my mind
#4 - I don't agree with the post, but don't really have the time to refute it.
I don't really agree with what Helen has said in this post . . . I believe that I should be able to read the Bible and understand it with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, as Gina so appropriately stated in her response. . .if the Bible says long hair, it means long hair. I agree with what Aaron had to say on the matter. He stated quite clearly what I wanted to say, but was having trouble organizing my thoughts.
If we begin to doubt what the Bible plainly says, what parts can we truly trust? If the only believable Scripture is the Original, then we're in big trouble today! We obviously don't have them.
And if the only way to understand the Scriptures is by knowing Greek and Hebrew and how it works, well, personally, I'm up the creek without that proverbial paddle!
How many normal, everyday people can understand Greek/Hebrew grammar usage? I know I can't!
For these reasons, and maybe more, I have chosen not to respond to Helen's post. But my lack of response does not mean Helen is right, or that I'm cowering in the corner like a little puppy dog. Nor is this true for anyone else who has chosen not to respond.
I think that your post was not necessary and may provoke others to something other than what is honourable for a Christian. You may, in essence, have been bearing false witness against others and may have caused some here to have un-Christian thoughts towards those who have not posted.
In fact, I believe that you have been a judge of your brothers and sisters in Christ who have chosen not to post in regards to this topic. Are you prepared to be judged with that same judgement?
(Mat 7:2 KJV) For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
I hope that you know these words are spoken in love and care in hopes that you will reconsider when you may be falsely accusing another. God says for us (Rom 12:18) live peaceably with all men. I don't think what you posted is peaceable at all.
Hey, and if we really want to provoke someone, let's do it the Biblical way:
(Heb 10:24 KJV) And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works :
Julia
In defense of Katie, who is a special lady, I think
she meant well in her statements, We all have
strong feelings about our positions that are
meaningful to us. 8o)
But, at the same time, there are many topics I
pass right over, not reading, and not responding.
Why? Because, I think, why bother? My answers
will, as Keeper mentioned, add to the alreeady
presiding strife. Too often, opposing answers
provoke others, and I don't want to deal with that
or feel like I have caused it. I choose my battles.
8o)
Many notice that I say little in any threads the
purpose of which is to debate the Sabbath,
kosher eating, Law, etc. Some PM me inviting
me to debate, but I usualy decline--even the
requests of those who agree with me on an issue.
Why? Well, why debate an issue in which all
contending minds are already made up and in
which everyone is dismissing opposing views
without consideration? Debate without the pur-
pose of hearing others and at least learning from
them, whether or not to eventualy agree with them,
is not debate--it is arguing.
While I agree with Helen--At This Time--regard-
ing hair, I reserve the right to study it for myself
and change my mind. In the same way, while I
agree that fabric headcoverings are not relevant
to us, I reserve the right to change my mind with
further study. While I agree that pants are the
most modest clothing for me, even in this, with
Bible study, I reserve the right to change my
mind should I be proven wrong. The same goes
for Sabbath observance, observing the festivals,
and not doing Sunday, easter, and Christmas.
8o)
[ December 02, 2002, 01:38 PM: Message edited by: Abiyah ]
she meant well in her statements, We all have
strong feelings about our positions that are
meaningful to us. 8o)
But, at the same time, there are many topics I
pass right over, not reading, and not responding.
Why? Because, I think, why bother? My answers
will, as Keeper mentioned, add to the alreeady
presiding strife. Too often, opposing answers
provoke others, and I don't want to deal with that
or feel like I have caused it. I choose my battles.
8o)
Many notice that I say little in any threads the
purpose of which is to debate the Sabbath,
kosher eating, Law, etc. Some PM me inviting
me to debate, but I usualy decline--even the
requests of those who agree with me on an issue.
Why? Well, why debate an issue in which all
contending minds are already made up and in
which everyone is dismissing opposing views
without consideration? Debate without the pur-
pose of hearing others and at least learning from
them, whether or not to eventualy agree with them,
is not debate--it is arguing.
While I agree with Helen--At This Time--regard-
ing hair, I reserve the right to study it for myself
and change my mind. In the same way, while I
agree that fabric headcoverings are not relevant
to us, I reserve the right to change my mind with
further study. While I agree that pants are the
most modest clothing for me, even in this, with
Bible study, I reserve the right to change my
mind should I be proven wrong. The same goes
for Sabbath observance, observing the festivals,
and not doing Sunday, easter, and Christmas.
8o)
[ December 02, 2002, 01:38 PM: Message edited by: Abiyah ]
While I agree with Helen--At This Time--regard-
ing hair, I reserve the right to study it for myself
and change my mind. In the same way, while I
agree that fabric headcoverings are not relevant
to us, I reserve the right to change my mind with
further study. While I agree that pants are the
most modest clothing for me, even in this, with
Bible study, I reserve the right to change my
mind should I be proven wrong. The same goes
for Sabbath observance, observing the festivals,
and not doing Sunday, easter, and Christmas.
Good for you! And I am not finished studying yet, either! God has been faithful to show me where I am wrong before (sometimes through other people and sometimes a little more directly -- like hitting me between the eyes with a passage that had to do with the topic on my mind), and I reserve the right to continue in my spiritual growth, too.
I would ask a favor Abiyah -- if you come across something you think would be of interest here or on any of the other subjects and that would help us all, PLEASE POST IT!
God bless. I hope you had a blessed Hannukah, too
ing hair, I reserve the right to study it for myself
and change my mind. In the same way, while I
agree that fabric headcoverings are not relevant
to us, I reserve the right to change my mind with
further study. While I agree that pants are the
most modest clothing for me, even in this, with
Bible study, I reserve the right to change my
mind should I be proven wrong. The same goes
for Sabbath observance, observing the festivals,
and not doing Sunday, easter, and Christmas.
Good for you! And I am not finished studying yet, either! God has been faithful to show me where I am wrong before (sometimes through other people and sometimes a little more directly -- like hitting me between the eyes with a passage that had to do with the topic on my mind), and I reserve the right to continue in my spiritual growth, too.
I would ask a favor Abiyah -- if you come across something you think would be of interest here or on any of the other subjects and that would help us all, PLEASE POST IT!
God bless. I hope you had a blessed Hannukah, too
Oh, Helen! We all must grow and change, or we
are most stagnant! This is why I have trouble with
those who would criticize people today for what
they have said and/or had done and/or believed in
the long ago past. First, find out if they are the
same today, then criticize or bless! We all reserve
(and deserve) the right to growth and to change!
And, yes, Helen, I will do as you request.
We are certainly enjoying Hanukkah. Tonight, we
light the fourth candle. 8o) It would mean far less
to me, if our Messiah had not also observed it.
Because of Him, it is a blessed time.
[ December 02, 2002, 02:12 PM: Message edited by: Abiyah ]
are most stagnant! This is why I have trouble with
those who would criticize people today for what
they have said and/or had done and/or believed in
the long ago past. First, find out if they are the
same today, then criticize or bless! We all reserve
(and deserve) the right to growth and to change!
And, yes, Helen, I will do as you request.
We are certainly enjoying Hanukkah. Tonight, we
light the fourth candle. 8o) It would mean far less
to me, if our Messiah had not also observed it.
Because of Him, it is a blessed time.
[ December 02, 2002, 02:12 PM: Message edited by: Abiyah ]
Becasue of what I quoted from you. Accusing me of snide remarks, when over looking what has been said about me and others who wear pants.
I don't know all these things either, but I make an effort to do good bible study using what study helps are available, and theres no excuse not to when we have everything on the internet.
Wisdom Seeker
New Member
Another thought...How do any of us know that God did not provide Helen's post to create more understanding as well.
So...all of that work in researching proved what I already surmised... What is inside is what proves our godliness, and god mindedness to God.
Nice to know that I'm not less of a Christian because of how I wear my hair...but then I already knew that.
So...all of that work in researching proved what I already surmised... What is inside is what proves our godliness, and god mindedness to God.
Nice to know that I'm not less of a Christian because of how I wear my hair...but then I already knew that.
J
jimslade
Guest
Helen I'm sorry to have to correct you but your Greek is a little off. The greek translation for KOMAO is ( To let the hair grow,have long hair)
check out Thayers Greek Lexicon. The word you are referring as ornamental dressing KOME has a secondary meaning of (length of hair).That is why all Greek scholars translate these words in 1Cor.11:14-15 to have the same meaning, otherwise the teaching of this custom would be very confusing.
What I find many times in Pauls writings is that it is alot like JEPARDY, we have the answers but we have to find the Questions.
I agree with you on the coverings issue but please get a Greek lexicon, you with find that they are very accurate,and will save you from translation problems.
[ December 04, 2002, 06:57 PM: Message edited by: jimslade ]
check out Thayers Greek Lexicon. The word you are referring as ornamental dressing KOME has a secondary meaning of (length of hair).That is why all Greek scholars translate these words in 1Cor.11:14-15 to have the same meaning, otherwise the teaching of this custom would be very confusing.
What I find many times in Pauls writings is that it is alot like JEPARDY, we have the answers but we have to find the Questions.
I agree with you on the coverings issue but please get a Greek lexicon, you with find that they are very accurate,and will save you from translation problems.
[ December 04, 2002, 06:57 PM: Message edited by: jimslade ]
Hi Jim,
Folks I am responding to this older thread at his request and I also said I would respond to some earlier stuff and I will try to get to that tomorrow.
Jim, it means what I said it means. In the Jay P. Green Interlinear, which is HIGHLY respected, the word 'komao' is translated "adorns the hair." In the ancient Hungarian (translated before the King James) this is what I was told about the word 'komao' was translated into:
The word nagy[komao] in the above Scripture passage means great. Now note that if Gáspár Károlyi, the translator of the Hungarian Bible, wanted to say long hair, then he would have used the word hosszú. But since he used great, it can be understood as grandiose or something spectacular, even decorative.
I hope that helps.
Folks I am responding to this older thread at his request and I also said I would respond to some earlier stuff and I will try to get to that tomorrow.
Jim, it means what I said it means. In the Jay P. Green Interlinear, which is HIGHLY respected, the word 'komao' is translated "adorns the hair." In the ancient Hungarian (translated before the King James) this is what I was told about the word 'komao' was translated into:
The word nagy[komao] in the above Scripture passage means great. Now note that if Gáspár Károlyi, the translator of the Hungarian Bible, wanted to say long hair, then he would have used the word hosszú. But since he used great, it can be understood as grandiose or something spectacular, even decorative.
I hope that helps.
We will all be eager to see your responses. The consensus of Greek scholarship translates the word as "long hair."
The Hungarian reference is interesting. How is it translated into Spanish, German, Chinese or some of the other major languages of the world?
[ December 10, 2002, 08:34 AM: Message edited by: Aaron ]
The Hungarian reference is interesting. How is it translated into Spanish, German, Chinese or some of the other major languages of the world?
[ December 10, 2002, 08:34 AM: Message edited by: Aaron ]
J
jimslade
Guest
Helen I also have JP Greens inter- and use it extensively but in this case he is reading to much into the passage.
NO other Greek scholar that I know of would translate Komao as Adornment,but kome is the only word that has the ability to be translated as adorning the hair.
Although I respect JP Green he is only one translator, and one of the foremost Greek experts THAYER disagrees with him.
We have to be carefull when we are studying Gods Word that we don't use one mans opinion on a reading.
When JP Green comes out with his own Lexicon then I may refer to him, But I doubt he will, the knowledge to produce a Lexicon is extensive.
Thank You for your reply.
Your in Christ Jim
[ December 10, 2002, 09:29 AM: Message edited by: jimslade ]
NO other Greek scholar that I know of would translate Komao as Adornment,but kome is the only word that has the ability to be translated as adorning the hair.
Although I respect JP Green he is only one translator, and one of the foremost Greek experts THAYER disagrees with him.
We have to be carefull when we are studying Gods Word that we don't use one mans opinion on a reading.
When JP Green comes out with his own Lexicon then I may refer to him, But I doubt he will, the knowledge to produce a Lexicon is extensive.
Thank You for your reply.
Your in Christ Jim
[ December 10, 2002, 09:29 AM: Message edited by: jimslade ]
Helen, I think you must remember that the Hungarian is also a translation, so this quote in itself only proves that the Hungarian translation differs from the King James translation, not which is correct.
As to Aaron's question: I checked my Spanish translation (1569) and in it means "long hair." I verified this with a native Spanish speaker. But the Latin (and I don't know much about Latin), seems to be more in line with the Hungarian, with an idea of "adorned, dressed up." http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus:text:1999.02.0060:book=1%20Corinthians:chapter=11:verse=1
All of these are translations. I don't think that we can give one greater weight than the other, so I'm not sure what this will prove.