Halloween

[jonmagee]

Eric, thats my sentiments too......do something positive with today that is not associated with Halloween.
Pres..... sorry cant remember your name now it's not on the screen.
"Trick or treat"......what is that phrase saying? Farmers wife used the words extortion, I used the word threat, either way it surely is not the attitudes we want to teach our children.It origonate from the concept that "if we do not get treats from you we will ensure evil tricks will come upon you.The treat was one aspect of warding of the evil spirits.
read back through the thread and you will discover that sexual immorality does come into the wider concept of Halloween, as well as other things. The children who had blackmagic rites performed on them walked into it innocently cos they trusted parents who said halloween is just a fun time, nothing in it to be worried about.
Eric has pointed out some thing that is worth hearing. To not be celebraters of Halloween does not neccessarily equate with being a "kill joy". Use the time positively in other ways, but ensure it is quality time with the family.
yours, Jon

 

[presbuteros]

Eric,

I do think the Corinthian passage can apply to this issue. At Corinth, some Christians disassociated meat offered to idols from the idols themselves. They therefore had no scruples with respect to meat that had been used in idol worship. Others could not disassociate the two, and therefore would not eat such meat. The former looked at the meat and saw meat. The latter looked at the meat and saw a sacrifice to an idol. With repsect to this issue, charity must prevail in the use of liberty. The meat is fine, but do not cause another to stumble by eating it.

The other issue, that which is more in view in the passage you quoted, involved those who saw no problem with the meat and also no problem with actually attending the idols temple, and eating the meat in the temple as part of a religous feast. This Paul says cannot happen. To eat the meat is OK, its only meat - even if it was used in pagan rituals of idolatry. However, to eat it in communion with pagans in the idols temple involves one with paganism.

I think letting your kids dress up in a costume (that is appropriate) and go out for treats is more like the first scenario - eating the meat offered to idols because you can disassociate the meat from idolatry. In this case, you are disassociating the pagan practices of some from the collecting of candy along your street of others. I think the latter scenario (eating the meat in the temple itself with other pagans) would be more like attending a pagan Halloween festival where animal sacrifices were being made. In this case, whether you offered such a sacrifice or not, to be present and to eat a religous feast with them would involve you in their paganism.

How I would apply it is like this:

With respect to Halloween, some can disassociate the pagan elements of sacrifice, sexual immorality or whatever else they do from going down their street and collecting candy while dressing up. Others cannot. Some look at Halloween and see children going to their neighbours houses, being told they're cute, and getting a treat. Others see animals sacrifices, sexual immorality and the like. It's two ways of looking at the "meat". Its either just meat (even if it was used in pagan sacrifice), or else its idol meat and therefore tainted.

 

[presbuteros]

Hi Jon,

To answer your concern about "trick or treat".

I do not teach my children to aquire candy by means of extortion. If they do say "trick or treat", it is not used as a true threat, by merely by way of custom, like the [superstitious] phrase "bless you" after a sneeze.

Where you and I differ is on the whole issue of association and disassoctiation. You associate children going out to collect candy with the extreme evils of Halloween. I disassociate the two. That association is a piece of the puzzle is clear from what I said above about meat used in idol worship. Those who thought it shouldn't be eaten could not disassociate the meat from the idol. Those who did eat it were able to make the distinction.

Quite likely, todays "anti-Halloween" Christians would have been first century "anti-idol meat" Christians based upon the same logic of guilt by association. There is nothing wrong with holding this position, but neither is there anything wrong with disassociating the two.

 

[jonmagee]

Prebuterus (did I get it right this time?), It is more than that.
It has already been stated that Adults have been caught carrying out black magic rituals on children. These children were compromised because well meaning parents and others had convinced them that halloween was just a fun time and nothing else. Nothing to fear...... and so they walked into the reality of halloween. (Im not saying the parents performed the acts merely that they "disarmed" the children by belittling the dangers before them. Thats an awful responsibilitiy to carry for the rest of your life!
yours, Jon

 

[jonmagee]

Pres., Do you really think a phrase that began as a real threat can be equated with a blessing? yours,Jon

 

[stubbornkelly]

Well that's just it. If you teach your kids nothing other than Halloween is a time to go out and get candy, you're doing them a disservice. We teach our kids "stranger danger," and should, of course, arm them with information about some of the negative goings-on around Halloween. To ignore some of the bad things that go on is just irresponsible.

And those who practice "black magic rituals" on children are not to be lauded for doing so, of course. Such actions aren't protected, if people are being hurt or abused.

But again, I think the abusers are a relatively minor segment of people who call themselves witches.

 

[presbuteros]

Hi Jon,

I did not say that the phrase "trick or treat" is a blessing. I said that it is used in a customary way (at least when my kids use it) rather than as a formal threat. The phrase "bless you" is similar in that it is also used in a customary way, not in ist original superstitious way.

I really fail to see the connection between people carrying out black magic rituals on children and my own children going out, in my company I might add, for candy door to door down our street to the homes of people whom we know. Please make this connection clear to me. I know its important to you because you keep bringing it up.

Also, I have made the point about association and disassociation, and its validity based upon Paul's handling of the idol meat issue at Corinth. I would be interested in your thoughts about this as it relates to our discussion.

God Bless.

 

[presbuteros]

Stubbornkelly,

I have never suggested that we should not inform our children about some of the evils that can be a part (by a small minority) of Halloween. I just don't think that the evil actions of a minority should make the going out for treats wrong for my children. If it does make it wrong, how?

 

[stubbornkelly]

No, no, presbuteros, I agree with you. It's a small percentage of people who call themselves witches and pagans who do such rituals, and yalk of such things as a reason to not "do" the secular Halloween carry ilttle weight.

 

[presbuteros]

Hi Stubbornkelly,

Thanks for the clarification. Sorry I misunderstood your post.

God Bless.

 

[g'day mate]

Jim
I like what you say,In Australia Halloween is a non avent.This year was the first time I have school children visit my home,four great kids having fun.I treat halloween like non Christians
treat christmas.Just treat it as a Joke,its original meaning is lost,forget it.The sad thing is I dont like Christmas treated as a joke.
That really hurts me
John

 

[Ransom]

Digging way back in the thread, suzanne said:

Carving pumkins/veggies was done to protect people from the evil that was believed to exist,

This is an anachronism, as pumpkins did not grow in Europe at the time of the Celts. Moreover, the legend of Jack O'Lantern wandering through limbo with a carved-out turnip and a coal given him by the devil dates only from the eighteenth century. Most likely the legend is a "retroactive explanation" as to why people made cheap lanterns out of vegetables.

The idea of trick or treat comes from a pagan prankster called the Lord of Misrule,

On the contrary, the modern practice of Hallowe'en is very much a North American invention - adolescent hooligans used to play pranks on Hallowe'en night, tipping over outhouses and that sort of thing. Trick-or-treating was actually instituted by groups such as the Boy Scouts in the 1930s as a safe and legal alternative to committing vandalism. The word "trick or treat" does not even appear in the dictionary until 1941.

And, today, trick-or-treating is done in the local mall or dispensed with entirely in favour of a night at church, as an alternative to door-to-door trick or treating. Apparently there is nothing new under the sun . . .

Wearing a mask for halloween? Note that the tradition may be from a form of "sympathetic magic" and later a way to hide a witches identity as they traveled to covens.

The practice of mummery, dressing in costume and going door-to-door to beg/entertain for food, is a European tradition dating from the Middle Ages and practiced on many nights of the year, not just Hallowe'en.

 

[Helen]

Ransom, could you please give the references for your information? Thanks.

 

[Carly33]

What amazes me is that we even debate this topic...Halloween has no redeeming quality..no christian significance....and as far as candy...most kids today get too much on a daily basis....

Pull your heads out of the sand...it is not innocent...have you seen many halloween costumes lately? (Two year old monsters, witches, evil characters...etc)
It grieves me to see little children celebrate evil in this manner. How can I invite this kind of deception into my home, and smile, and bless them. I stand wholeheartedly against the whole thing. I do love the children, but I don't think I'm limited to one day a year to give a tract to a child.

 

[jonmagee]

Thank you Carley
yours, Jon

 

[InHim2002]

It has already been stated that Adults have been caught carrying out black magic rituals on children

I would very much like to see your source for this claim - could you post it please?

 

[Jim1999]

InHim:

quote:
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It has already been stated that Adults have been caught carrying out black magic rituals on children
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I would very much like to see your source for this claim - could you post it please

These reports are showing up in newspapers all the time, including arrests and court trials and convictions. One could not begin to list all the reports.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[InHim2002]

These reports are showing up in newspapers all the time, including arrests and court trials and convictions. One could not begin to list all the reports.

I have been searching for an account (proven in a court of law) of satanic child abuse and have come with nothing - please could you point me in the right direction?

I did find this - you might find it interesting -

The following essay and its hyper-links describe a guide written by K.V. Lanning on ritual child abuse. It is perhaps the most important and influential document ever written on the topic. Its wisdom has held up well, even though there have been enormous developments in the subject since the essay was written in 1992.

Kenneth V. Lanning is a Supervisory Special Agent at the Behavioral Science Unit at the National Center for the Analysis of Violent Crime. The Center is located at the FBI Academy in Quantico, VA. It assists police forces throughout the US. The group is often called in as consultants by local and state police forces.

Lanning began working in the field in 1981. Allegations of ritual abuse began to surface circa 1983. At first, he tended to believe that the abuse really occurred. He reported:

But the number of alleged cases began to grow and grow. We now have hundreds of victims alleging that thousands of offenders are abusing and even murdering tens of thousands of people as part of organized satanic cults, and there is little or no corroborative evidence. The very reason many "experts" cite for believing these allegations (i.e. many victims, who never met each other, reporting the same events), is the primary reason I began to question at least some aspects of these allegations.
Lanning defines a satanic murder as "one committed by two or more individuals who rationally plan the crime and whose primary motivation is to fulfill a prescribed satanic ritual calling for the murder." Using this definition he has been unable to identify even one documented satanic murder in the United States

 

[Ransom]

Helen asked:

Ransom, could you please give the references for your information? Thanks.

Most of it stems from some research I did last year for a Hallowe'en party amongst my church friends; I was asked to do a quick thing about the origins of the holiday and its traditions.

Unfortunately while I still have my original notes, I no longer have my sources, so I cannot tell you specifically where I got all this information.

However, I did look up the relevant entries in encyclopedias such as Britannica, Americana, World Book, Compton's and so forth, which are readily available at the library.

I also did some research on the Web; of the pages I consulted then, I was only able to retrace one of them: The History of Halloween: It's Probably Not What You Think, written by a fundamentalist pastor. He agrees in the main with what I said (though not every detail I gave above is repeated in his Web site); judging by the sheer number of historical sources in his bibliography, he's done his homework.

While I'm at it, though, I will make one retraction: I just found my notes, and I note that last year I did say that jack o'lanterns were placed in windows to frighten away evil spirits. I was simply mistaken about what my research turned up. I might have seen somewhere that that was just part of the legend, but I couldn't swear to it.

[ November 01, 2002, 10:52 AM: Message edited by: Ransom ]

 

[suzanne]

Ok, I'll tell you where I got my information which ransom answered to (even though no one asked)

From a book called Sabbats, A Witch's Approach to Living the Old Way by Edain McCoy and confirmation from a real live practicing witch living nearby.

Oh, by the way, the veggie was probably a turnip..does that make you feel better?