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Hamas bears responsibility

Discussion in 'News & Current Events' started by Logos1560, May 29, 2024.

  1. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Here is a brief history of the recent conflict:

    In 1947, the United Nations adopted the Partition Plan, which sought to divide the British Mandate of Palestine into Arab and Jewish states (a two state solution).

    In 1948, the State of Israel was created, sparking the first Arab-Israeli War.

    The war ended in 1949 with Israel’s victory, but 750,000 Palestinians were displaced, and the territory was divided into 3 parts: the State of Israel, the West Bank (of the Jordan River), and the Gaza Strip.


    In June 1967, following actions by Egyptian President Abdel Gamal Nasser, Israel preemptively attacked Egyptian and Syrian air forces, starting the Six-Day War.

    After the war, Israel gained territorial control over the Sinai Peninsula and Gaza Strip from Egypt; the West Bank and East Jerusalem from Jordan; and the Golan Heights from Syria.


    Six years later was the Yom Kippur War or the October War, Egypt and Syria launched a siprise atyack against Isrsrl to regain land they had lost. This was unsuccessful.

    In 1979, following a series of cease-fires and peace negotiations, representatives from Egypt and Israel signed the Camp David Accords that ended the thirty-year conflict between Egypt and Israel.

    1987, hundreds of thousands of Palestinians living in the West Bank and Gaza Strip rose up against the Israeli government in what is known as the first intifada.

    The 1993 the Oslo I Accords set up a framework for the Palestinians to govern themselves in the West Bank and Gaza, and enabled mutual recognition between the newly established Palestinian Authority and Israel’s government.

    In 1995, the Oslo II Accords expanded on the first agreement, adding provisions that mandated the complete withdrawal of Israel from 6 cities and 450 towns in the West Bank.


    in September 2000, Palestinians launched lthe second intifada, which would last until 2005.

    Hamas won the Palestinian Authority’s parliamentary elections in 2006, deposing longtime majority party Fatah. This gave Hamas, a political and militant movement inspired by the Palestinian Muslim Brotherhood, control of the Gaza Strip. In 2014 Fatah united with Hamas.

    In 2014 Hamas fired nearly three thousand rockets at Israel, and Israel retaliated with a major offensive in Gaza.


    In March of 2018, Israeli troops killes 183 Palestinians and wounded 6,000 others as they stormed the perimeter fence between the Gaza Strip and Israel.

    Afew months later, Hamas militants fired over one hundred rockets into Israel, and Israel responded with strikes on more than fifty targets in Gaza.



    NOTE the REASON for the attacks have always been the idea thar Israel cannot be allowed to exist.

    NOTE that each time Israel responded to aggression.
     
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  2. Conan

    Conan Well-Known Member

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    YOU are greatly mistaken. Palestinian Jews and Palestinian Christians and Palestinian Muslims lived for hundreds of years in peace with each other. It wasn't until 1948 Israel was declared a state and in 1949 the naqba happened. Don't know that I spelled it right but was the first time Israeli zionist (not Palestinian Jews) shot Palestinian men and drove them off of their land and occupied it.
    That's a false statement. I am all for the defeat of Nazi Germany and the rescuing of Jews from concentration camps. I'm all for the great sacrifice that Russia paid to smash Nazi Germany. I'm all for the part the United States played in defeating the Nazis. I am against the fact that the biden administration and the cias and our billionaires supporting Ukrainian Nazis. Do you know they exist?
    That's a lie. I hate zionism, not Judaism. The two are separate. One is a totally legitimate religion, the other wants an Apartheid State and an unsinkable aircraft carrier in the land of arab oil. If an arab country gets out of line we have Israel as a base to project our will.
    All Netanyahu had to do was exchange hostages. He said no. He has been under fire from the families of Israeli hostages who camped out at his house. Unfortunately him and his cabinet have somehow survived. He does not want to live a two state solution, but as a zionist to drive out the Palestinians from all of the lands they claim. From the river to the sea.
    84494. Missing in the rubble
    You are so wrong. It is the zionist that treats thd Palestinians like they are sub-human. They have killed 37084. Wounded 84494.
    Missing in the rubble 11000. Al-Aqsa Flood Live Blog Archives - Palestine Chronicle
    That is exactly what is happening.
    You do not know the true situations in Israel. Palestinian Christians are having their property confiscated and being pushed out of Jerusalem. Not all at once, but stage by stage. Just like settlements in the west bank and land where Palestinians live. Palestinian Christian and Muslims have no rights. They do not vote, have no rights in court. They are the ones treated as non-humans by the zionist. Not the Palestinian Jews, but zionist.

    All of the prime ministers are Eastern European Jews who have to change their names to sound Middle Eastern. Was the single one you refered to the one who was really for making peace with Palestinians but assassinated by Netanyahu's people in the older times? If so I'm glad you remembered him. Thanks!

    You are so wrong. You are greatly mistaken. I support the 2 State solution. Your old enough to know about it. An Israeli State and a Palestinian State. The problem is the zionist want all of the land. They tried to subjection the Palestinians but that didn't work so they want to drive them from the land totally. They are an Apartheid State. Lets go back to the 2 state solution. Or are you against?
    37084 non-combatants killed. Thats not hostage rescue at all. What is it called? Genocide.
     
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  3. Conan

    Conan Well-Known Member

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    Wrong. You are one sided. You have given false witness against me. How can I be anti-Semitic when I fully support Semitic Jews, Semitic Christians and Semitic Muslims?

    I am trying to say the killing of 37084 Semitic people, Non combatants, is wrong. Its called Genocide. Why are you for it?

    Oh, and your quote "from the river to the sea" was started by zionist who want to drive all non jews from everywhere.

    I am pro Jewish, anti Zionist. You need to learn the difference.
     
  4. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    How? Easy. Read your post.

    You condemned Israel for waging war against Palestine in order to protect their citizens.

    This conflict has been ongoing.

    The problem is that while Israel supports the existence of a Palestine state the Palestine people and governments reject the right for Israel to exist.

    Palestinians, Muslims, Christians and Jews live as citizens of Israel.

    Each attack was against Israel and directly targeted civilians.

    Israel has not instigated attacks on Palestine.


    The reason we can reasonably determine you to be antisemitic is based on your comments.

    You condemned Israel for using deadly force to retrieve the hostages that the refugees held at the camp (the civilians that were kidnapped 8 months ago).

    BUT you made a comment that Palestine was justified in the killing, raping, and kidnapping of Jewish citizens last October because Israel has arrested Palestines involved in or suspected of being involved in terrorist activities.

    Do I believe you meant to justify the murder, rape and kidnapping of Jews? No. I don't even think you realize that is what you did.

    Often our words expess our hearts without our minds recognizing the hatred.


    Zionism is the belief that Israel has a right to exist.

    The problem with you claiming they do not is the fact that you are calling for the distruction and displacement of a nation that has existed for almost a century.

    Israel existed via diplomatic means, then solidified their right to exist several times by defending itself when neighboring nations sought its destruction and being victorious.
     
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  5. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    This is false.

    The Jews have historically been an oppressed people.

    Prior to the establishment of Israel there was not peace between the Muslims and the Jews. The solution was a two state solution - Israel and Palestine.

    But the justification does not matter because Israel defeated the neighboring nations, expanded, then withdrew....a few times. The land is there's, if by nothing else, by conquest.

    Palestine, not Israel, broke the peace.



    Now, do I like war? No. Do I like people dying? No. Does Scripture tell us this will continue? Yes.
     
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  6. Conan

    Conan Well-Known Member

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    False statement. Israel is commiting Genocide against Palestinian non combatants. Mostly children. Non combatant men, women and children. Since 50% of Palestine is children they are killing at least that many. That is not hostage rescue.

    37084 killed. These numbers do not contain Hamas fighters. The UN does not include them. They are likely 50% children. These are people who are bombed from the air. People who nave been shot looking for food.
    84494 wounded.
    11000 missing. Likely dead under the rubble.
    How does bombing all of Gazas building to the ground rescue hostages? It does not. It's commiting Genocide against innocents. Kill Hamas in a stand up fight. Don't kill Palestinian children, women and non combatant men.
    It's so lopsided it's ridiculous.
    I honestly don't think you really know what's going on over there. You have a fantasy of what modern day Israel is. You do not know that the Local Palestinian Jews protest what the state of Israel is doing to the Palestinians. You do not know is the real answer. You have only fantasy and lopsided, propaganda from fox, msnbc, cnn. Controlled billionaire newsmedia.

    Netanyahu has never excepted a Palestinian State and has said he never will.
    There is no Palestinian State. You are living in a fantasy world. Israel controls all Palestinian movements. They control what medical needs of theirs often denying their treatment. Honestly, you don't even know Gaza is an open air prison for 2 million Palestinians? I don't think you do.
    37084 killed.
    84494 wounded.
    11000 missing.
    That is not true. They attacked and overwhelmed the Israeli check points and the armed towns surrounding Gaza as living military bases. All of Israel's citizens are required to join the army and after serving they can be called up anytime. I am sure some hostages weren't currently in the Army but they could not take any hostages without over coming the israeli army covering the boarder.
    They are killing Palestinian men, women and mostly children. Why can't they just fight Hamas armed fighters? Because that's not Netanyahu's plan is it.

    You are giving falsewitness against me.
    No I have not. That is a fantasy in your head.
    37084 killed who are non combatants is what I am protesting. Israel didn't rescue hostages when they bombed all Palestinian hospitals and Apartment buildings and all buildings. Haven't you seen the devastation of all North Gaza destroyed? Thats not hostage rescue. That's Genocide. Israel can kill all the Hamas fighters it wants, but when they kill such large numbers of non combatants it is Genocide. It is wrong to kill women and children. Any nation. God does not give Israel a pass to murder women and children. It's unexcusable to bomb civilians. It's a war crime.
    One there were no rapes. That has been proven by all party's except the us press. It gives Americans the reason to hate and not care what happens to 2 million Palestinians in Gaza just like they don't care about Israeli settlements in the West Bank.

    Jesus Christ was born a Jew. Our Savior is Jewish. I don't have anything against any Jews. But I oppose the Genocide which Netanyahu and his cabinet is commiting. Haven't you seen all of Gaza leveled?
    TRUE.

    No it is not. It is the belief that all of the land, including Gaza and the West Bank belong to Israel and not Palestinians.
    I am not calling for the destruction of Israel. I am calling for the 2 state solution. Of course one state with full rights for everyone would be best. But Netanyahu and his backers would never allow that. You can tell by their treatment of women and children and non combatant men what they think of Palestinians, Muslim or Christian. They even mistreated the Palestinian Jews who protest the Genocide against Palestinians. A two state solution is the best it seems to me. At least thats what we promised in the onslow accords.
    The first zionist said to the potential Israeli settlers, " you will not be happy here in Europe, you will be happier in Israel."
    Why couldn't they be happy in England and France and so forth and so on. Also the first Zionist chose Uganda but I believe the USA and Britain decided Israel. The only problem is that the land of Israel was already occupied by Palestinian Jews (who wait for God to establish his kingdom, not the United States) Palestinian Christians and Palestinian Muslims. It would have been nice for the surrounding nations to accept Israel and the rights of Natives.
     
    #66 Conan, Jun 10, 2024
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2024
  7. Conan

    Conan Well-Known Member

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  8. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    No, that is not the definition of "genocide".

    Also, it is the Palestinians who are using their own citizens for military purposes, not Israrl.

    We saw the same I Afghanistan (often our choice was to kill a child or allow the Afghans detonate the explosives strapped to the child to kill us.



    The difference here is clear.

    Most here moarn for the loss of life while also supporting the right for Jews to live.

    You mention the loss of life while calling for Jewish Genocide. That is why I say you are antisemitic.

    You call for the destruction of the Jewish nation but, for now, justify your support of rape, murder and kidnapping by being just fine if the Jews live somewhere else.....for now. I strongly suspect you actually support the Palestinian official position that Jews are simply to be killed worldwide.



    The only solution is to allow Palestinian to live as a state and Israel to live as a state, to stop making war. But the only party interested in that is Israel.

    The irony is that Palestinian only exists today because Isreal is not as evil as Palestinian (they exist because Israel has repeatedly withdrawn in hopes of peace).
     
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  9. Conan

    Conan Well-Known Member

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    Killing civilians on purpose is a war crime. And the UN has already ruled it Genocide. It's a done deal to the rest of the world. Just because you don't recognize it doesn't mean the rest of the world didn't.
    How about drone attacks? Why did we leave so much equipment behind? Why did we run? Former President Donal Trump tried to get us out of Afghanistan and they said" you can't do that, we have fought all this time". Nobody pushed back when biden fled from Afghanistan.

    And you are in error for doing so. I have plainly told you I love Palestinian Jews, who are Semites. I have also told you I love Palestinian Christians, who are also Semites. And the Palestinian Muslims also are Semites. Not do I want the state of Israel to be whipped out. Don't you think a two state solution is best? Or are you for pushing all the Semites out of the Gaza Strip and West Bank and giving it to European and American Settlers?
    I DO NOT call for the destruction of Israel. That is something you are projecting on to me that does not belong to me. I do not hate Jews. Jesus Christ my Savior was born Jewish. Again, no rapes were committed October 7th . Repeating the false witness does not make it true. That was debunked within days just like babies heads being cut off. That's propaganda to enrage you.

    That is not true. One I could never support such a wicked act. You wrong me. Two, that is not the Palestinians official position. Propaganda.

    Is breaking a 10 year old boys arm for throwing a rock at a tank thats on Palestinian land a good thing or bad. Is sentencing a 10 year old boy to 20 years in prison for throwing a rock at a tank to harsh for you?
     
  10. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    If you want a reality check, compare the Jewish population of Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Jordan and Syria (combined) with the Muslim/Arab population living within Israel (excluding the West Bank and Gaza which are NOT part of Israel according to the UN).

    Then ask HISTORY how it became that way.
     
  11. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Targeting civilians is a war crime.

    But we are talking about Israel targeting Palestine's military who are hiding among civilians.

    Those hostages and bodies recovered were hidden in a refugee camp.


    When we shot the kid with the bomb it was not a war crime even though this was a kid was a civilian. Why? Because the Afgan military was using civilians as weapons.

    It is the same with Palestine. The Palestinians are using civilians for military purposes (they have made them military targets even though Israel is not actively targeting non-combatant civilians).

    Now let's look at your "heros" in the story.

    Palestine has previously and repeatedly attacked Israel. Israel has responded.

    In October Palestine again attacked Israelu civilians, murdered civilians, kidnapped civilians, and raped civilians.

    You posted this was justified because Israel had Palestine prisoners.

    I don't buy it.

    Then you call for the killing of Israeli people (not the random Jew but those in the country of Israel) and the destruction of Israel.

    You don't mind a nation existing asong as it is not a Jewish nation (a Jewish nation that is largy Muslim, BTW).


    You are antisemitic by definition.
     
  12. Conan

    Conan Well-Known Member

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    You are giving false witness against me. I am getting sick of it. You want to act like you are with God supporting Israel, but your policies hurt Israel in the long run. But I can't blame you to much. You have no first hand knowledge of what is actually going on in Israel. You have a narrative given to you by Billionaires owned mainstream news media which withholds the truth from you. I guess that's not your fault. Here is some information that may be useful to you. One of these gentlemen if not both are Jews. Of course you are not obligated to spend your time.

    https://www.youtube.com/live/pL8S7imJQi8?si=vDpJZI3gOXfQo0gQ
     
  13. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    No, I am not.

    I also said you probably didn't recognize what you had said.

    You justified the Palestinians murder, rape, and kidnapping of Jewish people by saying Israel had Palestinian terrorists and suspected terrorists in jail.

    Add to that your comments against zionism (the belief that Israel has the right to exist) and your call to destroy the nation.


    Look, the issue is complex on one hand (even before the 1940's they were killing Jews in Palestine). The area was under Brittish rule and the "fix" was a two state solution.

    BUT on the other hand the issue is very simple:

    From a human point, we morn the loss of life - whether a citizen of Gaza, a Jewish Israelite, a Muslim Israelite, or a Chriatian Israeli eternal.


    On another hand, a government of a country has an inherent responsibility to protect its citizens.

    Palestinian has attacked Israel repeatedly. The worst was in October. They murdered, raped, kidnapped, burned our civilians (not military targets).

    Israel responded by attacking military targets which Palestine integrated among themselves.

    Hamas operated out of hospitals, schools and "civilian" homes. The hostages were kept by Palestinians in a refugee camp.

    The reason, of course, was to determine Israel from protecting itself or cause criticism against Israel for doing so.


    The civilian deaths are on Palestine. Palestine attacked....not Israel (Israel responded).



    You say Israel should have either accepted the loss of their citizens or somehow snuck into Palestine and got their people back. That is stupid.


    Do I believe you think of yourself as antisemitic? No.

    Do I believe you are antisemitic? Absolutely.


    I have rarely met a racist who acknowledged his racism.



    Bottom line for me is a two state solution.

    Israel exists in that small part of land that represents only a fraction of their previous nation.

    Palestinian exists on their land.

    If one initiates an attack the other they forfeits their right to exist as a nation. They may exist, but other nations shouldn't rally to their aid.
     
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  14. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    BTW -

    @Conan slightly justified the Palestines murdering, raping, and kidnapping Jewish civilians on the grounds that Israel has Palestinians in jail (some for terrorism, others being investigated).

    But that is not true.

    Palestine has stated exactly why they murdered, raped and kidnapped those civilians.

    Days prior a group of Jews prayed at the Temple, which is also the al-Aqsa Mosque and the site Muslims believe Mohammed ascended to the heavens.

    The Palestinian announced their attack on civilians was for that incident.
     
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  15. Conan

    Conan Well-Known Member

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    This is all propaganda and false witness. I have not justified anything except the lies about rape. I was telling you why they did what they did not that I agreed with it. I was giving you the other side of the story which you have never heard. I would have never launched october 7th. But I wanted you to know why they did it. Which you obviously did not. Again, I don't blame you. I was raised on the same one-sided propaganda as you are. I once believed exactly as you. But there is always another side to the story. It is always easier to smear the other side than try to understand them. If you believe they are sub-human then no one will care when you kill them. I gave you a video which you should be able to at least have compassion on the women and children. Genocide is going on in Gaza. The UN has already ruled it so. Just because your eyes are closed to what is really going on does not make it right.
     
    #75 Conan, Jun 11, 2024
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2024
  16. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Except we know that rapes occurred.

    The UN can rule whatever thay want to rule. Who cares?

    Point is Israel was attacked, people were murdered, raped, beheaded, and kidnapped.

    You posted that Israel is unjust in attacking targets of military interest to prevent a reoccurrence and to retrieve their citizens.
     
  17. Conan

    Conan Well-Known Member

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    My post are trying to point out the wrongfully heavyhandedness of Netanyahu and his cabinet in slaughtering innocent Palestinians (they can kill all the Hamas fighters they want, I am talking non combatants). You don't care what the UN and the rest of the world thinks is not good for Israel or the United States. Any normal person would have traded hostages. He has refused, showing he does not care about hostages, which is well documented. You care about hostages, but he does not. You project your care onto him. He doesn't really care. It goes against his purpose. Please watch some independent media, not to have you against Israel, but to see the war crimes and Genocide for yourself.
     
  18. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    You would have a point of Palestinian had returned the hostages.

    The problem is Palestinian attacked Israel and is continuing to keep hostages.

    As far as "innocent civilians", these are only children and the ones sacrificing them is Palestinian.


    You are confusing two issues.

    The first is war and the responsibility of a government to protect its citizens.

    The second is the morality of war.


    To the first-

    on October 7 Palestinian attacked Jewish civilians- two of the women are verified as having been raped and murdered, one man was beheaded, over 1000 Jews were murdered and over 200 kidnapped.

    This was, per Palestine, in response to a group of Jews praying at the Temple/ Mosque.

    Those are independent facts.

    Israel responded by going to war with Palestine. The goal - rescue the hostages, destroy the Palestinian government to prevent this from continuing in the future.

    As a war it is justified. War is never proportional. It is never "you killed 1000 of our citizens so we will kill 1000 of yours".


    To the second:

    I am retired Army. There is no such a thing as a "moral war".

    Israel is engaged in a "just war" (Israel is justified). But war is not moral. Civilians are always killed.

    The Palestinian government would not exist without the Palestinian people. They viewed Hamas as more effective to destroy Israel than the Fatah governance).

    But the loss of life is a thing to be moaned.

    Feel for the people, morn with those who morn.



    But Israel has a responsibility to its people (remember.....Palestinian Muslims are also in the Israeli army and make up about a quarter of Israel's citizens).
     
  19. Conan

    Conan Well-Known Member

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    With all due respect you are heavily mistaken. Look at the last four "hostages" that were "rescued". They were all Army. You said they took civilians hostages. Look at the girl hostage. She was army and taken on her night off. She gained weight in her captivity. She looked as well as when she was taken. An Israeli news lady got fired for saying the captives eye lashes looked better than hers. An Israeli army female that was released said her captors treated her well and she recieves hate mail from from her country's men and women for saying so. That's not what they want to hear. It turns out all hostages are Army or reserves.

     
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