Hard Question for Catholics

[BobRyan]

So presuming that the sacraments provide grace and the eucharist changes men to be more godly how can you have a cardnal not believe in Jesus? If Jesus spoke the truth in the above quote then how am I to judge the "fruit" I've seen personally and what has been shown publically in the Catholic Church? Jesus is about changed lives. Turning away from sin. Do the sacraments work? I think this is a key question.
How did the Jews know Jesus was the messiah? He forgave a man of his sins then he healed him to show that the son of man has both the power to forgive sins and to heal. By his actions. And the effectiveness of his miracles.
Now lets take a look at the sacraments. I'll use myself but I'm certain I'm not alone. I was baptised a Catholic. I didn't think one thing about Jesus and certainly we never spoke about him at the dinner table. My step mother being budhist an all. I went to first communion and received a nice certificate. .... My life effectively changed. yet with the multitude of exposures to the sacraments nothing changed.

this is where the rubber hits the road. We can discuss theology all day long yet I question what works? If I'm working on a car engine and what I do does nothing to get it going how effective is it? But if I do something that gets it running then isn't that the better way? There are many Catholics who's lives haven't changed despite the frequent participation in the sacraments. This is where I hold my family at bay.

So Lori, Brianna, Matt, Agnus Dei, Zenas how do you explain this? Not that I dislike you guys but effectiveness is an issue (In fact you guys often have keen insite into what you believe). What really works? Are the sacraments effective? How if they did nothing for me or others? What about the fruit of the church.

You are correct - those sacraments do not work. They are simply a smoke screen, a misdirection.

If the Catholic member is tricked into thinking those sacraments are actually "doing something" to the point that they do not go to Christ for themselves - then they are as lost as any atheist or agnostic.

The pretended claims to Priestly powers - is fake. Nothing at all happening there behind the smoke and mirrors.

It is only those Catholics that actually individually come to Christ for salvation that are saved and born again.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

It seems to be but it's not. I think they are actually under 50% of the BB; they are just outspoken on it. I did a poll several months back and there were more that voted as being non-Calvinist than Calvinist.

I am certainly not a Calvinist.

Neither is DHK or HP nor any of those that have sided with the Bible on the fact that there is "No OSAS" support from scripture.

I don't remember about Steaver.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[billwald]

>You are correct - those sacraments do not work.

How can anyone in this life know what works in the next?

I am convinced that I have a guardian angel who works especially hard when I am driving on the freeway but there is no objective way to verify it.

On the other hand, there are millions of people who try to manipulate God through prayer and there is no statistically measurable effect of prayer. (Statistics ONLY applies to large groups, never to individuals)

 

[steaver]

I am certainly not a Calvinist.

Neither is DHK or HP nor any of those that have sided with the Bible on the fact that there is "No OSAS" support from scripture.

I don't remember about Steaver.

in Christ,

Bob

Hey, I was labeled a Calvinist before I ever knew what a Calvinist was! :tongue3:

Hey Bob, could you answer my questions on the "Who has not failed" thread?

Thank You!

And no, I don't think much of Calvin's theory, although he was right about Jesus being the Son of God. Does this make me a Calvey?

Some seem to believe that Calvin was the first man to ever believe a child of God is eternally secure in Christ. Nobody needed Calvin to point this out!

:wavey:

 

[Trotter]

>You are correct - those sacraments do not work.

How can anyone in this life know what works in the next?

I am convinced that I have a guardian angel who works especially hard when I am driving on the freeway but there is no objective way to verify it.

On the other hand, there are millions of people who try to manipulate God through prayer and there is no statistically measurable effect of prayer. (Statistics ONLY applies to large groups, never to individuals)

Are you for real? With most of what you post it really makes me wonder...

 

[Thinkingstuff]

I was thinking about this. I wondered if maybe your "Sinner's Prayer" was a release of some built up need to repent and you saw a big change in your life.
My spouse had the same experience only it came by way of the sacrament of reconciliation that the change occurred.

The sad truth was that confession was available to me whenever I wanted to go but I didn't really know or understand about repentance. About moving from that nature I'm born in and turn 180 degree from it. In my catholic mind I had no choice but to sin since it was in my nature and confession was a kind of safety net that I had better be sure that I made use of it when I die at the moment of my death else I was damned. Thats why I believe we said during the Hail Mary "pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death" or for traditional Catholics " ora pro nobis peccatoribus, nunc, et in hora mortis Nostrae" because somehow Mother Mary's prayers would help assure that at my Hour of death I would have the opportunity to say confession and thus make it in by the skin of my teeth.
When I heard that evangelist say that sin remains present no matter what we do - it hit me hard because I knew from experience for that to be true. When He said the promise of Christ was to replace that nature by giving us his through the holy spirit and that we could only conqure that nature of sin and death by having Jesus Christ live in us by being born again. That we could not of our own accord fight this loosing battle but only by allowing Jesus christ to live in us; he would defeat that nature and bring us to completion for the purpose we were originally made now in this life not in the life after - I new I wanted that. I wanted to live that life now not in some unknown future that I new nothing about. To know God and live for him now in this life experiencing his fulness is what I wanted and so I prayed the sinners prayer, I went forward during the alter call and my life has been changed. Where as would it have been had I remaind Catholic. No one can really say except for God but one thing I do know is that as a Catholic I had no consept that my nature of sin would end apart from death and that I would live my life in constant struggle of being defeated by my sin with the only real hope was saying confession just before I die. What kind of hope is that?

 

[Matt Black]

Yes, but, you see, I've undergone the whole evangelical conversion experience too at age 16 and can completely relate to what you say (lapsed Catholic, never thought I was 'good enough', feeling of relief that I didn't have to be 'good enough' etc) and yet, nearly a quarter of a century on, I can't say I'm any less prone to sin now than I was then. So, according to you, there's something wrong here too....

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Yes, but, you see, I've undergone the whole evangelical conversion experience too at age 16 and can completely relate to what you say (lapsed Catholic, never thought I was 'good enough', feeling of relief that I didn't have to be 'good enough' etc) and yet, nearly a quarter of a century on, I can't say I'm any less prone to sin now than I was then. So, according to you, there's something wrong here too....

Yes theres a problem! Repent!!!!!!!!

I say that in jest. Yet is it honest to say what you did that

I can't say I'm any less prone to sin now than I was then

or to say that they types of sin that you struggle with now are different than the ones you did initially. For instance, I may have been easily prone to fornication, drunkedness, lying, stealing, Murder, etc. Yet now the sins I struggle with is lack of self discipline when it comes to letting my anger get away with me, Being inconsiderate to my wife, allowing profanity out of my mouth occassionally when I hit a hammer on my thumb, not regularily paying my tithese. Spend to much time in front of the television God. I may still have problem with sin but the degree of sin has shown improvement and as I defeat these through the power of Jesus christ what other things will I be tempted with and how much stronger will I be in overcomeing these?

 

[Matt Black]

TBH, the sins I struggle with today are pretty similar to those with which I struggled as a 16-year old: lust, anger, bad language, selfishness, laziness, a susceptability to addictions/addictive behaviour etc. Not murder, though....

 

[Trotter]

TBH, the sins I struggle with today are pretty similar to those with which I struggled as a 16-year old: lust, anger, bad language, selfishness, laziness, a susceptability to addictions/addictive behaviour etc. Not murder, though....

In other words, you struggle with the flesh. The good news is that you are not alone, the bad news is that you will continue to struggle with it until you are called home. That's my tongue in cheek way of saying that you are not alone, mate.

Everyone struggles with these. Becoming a Christian does not magically remove them from our thoughts and feelings (oh, that it did). As we mature spiritually these become less and less of a problem. They remain, more so than for others. We males tend to have bigger hangups on the more physical of them (lust, anger, laziness), but we have our fare share of the rest, too (selfishness, etc). I have my own struggles with selfishness and laziness. I am off and on with anger, with good seasons and horrid seasons (presently in a horrid one). Bad language is seldom a problem for me any more, but it does pop up on occasion. I have always been one prone to addictive behavior as such is my personality.

No sin is petty. We tend to rank them in degrees, but God does not. He calls us to mortify all of them, but to do it through Him. I know I cannot defeat sin under my own power, but He is able to do so.

 

[BillySunday1935]

Recently I witnessed a baptism of two little boys. Though both were old enough to walk to the font, their parents still carried them. Have you noticed how we’re seeing more and more baptisms of children, youth and adults—not just babes-in-arms? In a missionary time, in a missionary church, smack dab in a mission field like North America, we can expect to see that sort of thing with greater frequency.

Later in the worship service, the two new “baptizees” got a little wild. Refusing to stay put in the pews, they kept “escaping” into the aisle of the church, making a small scene.

“Oh boy,” I thought to myself. “Those little guys and their parents have some learning to do, about how we ‘do church’ around here.” And almost immediately my own self-righteous words convicted me, making me realize that…. I was 100% correct.

Everyone, mark me, everyone who comes through the waters of Baptism has a whole lifetime to grow into the saving act and the enlivening identity God graciously bestows in the water-wed-to-the-Word. This washing is neither cheap fire insurance nor a precaution to be taken “just in case.” It is for life—full, free and eternal. Baptism and the Eucharist that nourishes the baptized is for life overflowing.

My brother and I were forcibly carried up to an alter call by my Father at our Baptist church - I was seven yrs. and my brother was twelve yrs. old. He forced us to accept Jesus and to later be baptised under threat of punishment. How he did this in a Baptist church is beyond me; however, these things happen regardless of religious affiliation.

 

[BobRyan]

Sorry to hear about that. I suppose he "could" have simply had you sprinkled as a baby if he were a member of a Lutheran, Presbyterian or Catholic Church. You probably would not have viewed that case as "forced against your will" since clearly in that case -you would have had no actual participation at all in the exercise.

But as you point out - forcing someone against their will is not a Christian act.

If we learned anything from the tortures of the Dark Ages - we learned that one!

But anyone who values what Peter said at all - will remember that HE said that "Baptism saves you - NOT the magical touch of holy water on the skin - but an APPEAL TO GOD for a clean conscience".

May each one of their own free will CHOOSE to make that appeal to God for a clean conscience.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

My brother and I were forcibly carried up to an alter call by my Father at our Baptist church - I was seven yrs. and my brother was twelve yrs. old. He forced us to accept Jesus and to later be baptised under threat of punishment. How he did this in a Baptist church is beyond me; however, these things happen regardless of religious affiliation.

And this is why you are not a Baptist but a Catholic??
They do things pretty much the same way.

 

[BillySunday1935]

Originally Posted by BillySunday1935

My brother and I were forcibly carried up to an alter call by my Father at our Baptist church - I was seven yrs. and my brother was twelve yrs. old. He forced us to accept Jesus and to later be baptised under threat of punishment. How he did this in a Baptist church is beyond me; however, these things happen regardless of religious affiliation.

And this is why you are not a Baptist but a Catholic??
They do things pretty much the same way.

"Until this moment, … I think I never gauged your cruelty or recklessness....Let us not assassinate this lad further,.... You've done enough. Have you no sense of decency, sir, at long last? Have you left no sense of decency?"
Joseph Welch (the Army–McCarthy hearings)

Peace!

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Now it seems that there is particular doctrinal problems internal view when we take the Syllabus of Errors to modern Catholic Thought. Does it not seem that many things spelled out in the Syllabus of Errors has had a direct effect on not only the internal communion of catholics but how it presents itself to the world? How do catholics react to this encyclical of Pope Pius IX or the Quanta Cura? It seem to effect a mindless following of believers. Is this document reposible for the current affairs of the Church?

 

[DHK]

"Until this moment, … I think I never gauged your cruelty or recklessness....Let us not assassinate this lad further,.... You've done enough. Have you no sense of decency, sir, at long last? Have you left no sense of decency?"
Joseph Welch (the Army–McCarthy hearings)

Peace!

You need not accuse me of anything.
As per your quote, previously--your testimony, I will assert again. I know of no Baptist Church that carries on in such a manner. I will therefore assert that it is not a Baptist Church that you were in. That is not Baptist Church Polity. I don't believe you are a Baptist. You haven't convinced me, nor many others on this board. You spout and defend Catholic doctrine. How is that being a Baptist? You aren't. Possibly, a slim chance maybe, you thought you were in a Baptist Church but were not. What you have described above is not descriptive of Baptist Churches. I don't like to hear false testimony, and at the same time defense of the Catholic faith. Wolves in sheep's clothing I can spot.

 

[lori4dogs]

You need not accuse me of anything.
As per your quote, previously--your testimony, I will assert again. I know of no Baptist Church that carries on in such a manner. I will therefore assert that it is not a Baptist Church that you were in. That is not Baptist Church Polity. I don't believe you are a Baptist. You haven't convinced me, nor many others on this board. You spout and defend Catholic doctrine. How is that being a Baptist? You aren't. Possibly, a slim chance maybe, you thought you were in a Baptist Church but were not. What you have described above is not descriptive of Baptist Churches. I don't like to hear false testimony, and at the same time defense of the Catholic faith. Wolves in sheep's clothing I can spot.

And the same accusation has been leveled at Thinkingstuff by a number of people on this board. 'Spouting and defending Catholic doctrine' in and of itself doesn't make someone Catholic and not a Baptist.

You don't have to hate Catholics to be a Baptist, DHK.

 

[DHK]

And the same accusation has been leveled at Thinkingstuff by a number of people on this board. 'Spouting and defending Catholic doctrine' in and of itself doesn't make someone Catholic and not a Baptist.

You don't have to hate Catholics to be a Baptist, DHK.

Nope, you certainly don't. But to be a Baptist you must believe Baptist doctrine, not Catholic doctrine. Doesn't that make sense to you?

If I were working for IBM, why would I embrace MAC Operating System and demand a MAC computer.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

And the same accusation has been leveled at Thinkingstuff by a number of people on this board. 'Spouting and defending Catholic doctrine' in and of itself doesn't make someone Catholic and not a Baptist.

You don't have to hate Catholics to be a Baptist, DHK.

I would rather have you answer my post #95 than accuse DHK of hating Catholics. DHK and I have crossed swords (double edge sword cutting to the marrow) but I do understand DHK living in a predominately Catholic part of Canada where he is in the minority and Catholics don't live their faith. Often my questions for me do question some fundamental element of baptistic faith but primarily because they were first proposed by family or by something I was reading. A lot of questions came to be as I read the ECF and I proposed my findings on this board. However, that being said I have many questions for Catholics that deal with the nature of Apostolic Tradition opposed to the Deposit. Familiarity with Catholic terms makes one suspicious. However, unlike most Catholics I've come accross my family are of the educated caliber and know Catholic Apologetics for which I can turn around and place a question here showing an uncommon understanding of Catholicism that even most Catholic converts to baptist don't know. Which is an issue I bring up in post 95. So do you have an answer about the encyclicals that seem to make catholic laity dolts.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Nope, you certainly don't. But to be a Baptist you must believe Baptist doctrine, not Catholic doctrine. Doesn't that make sense to you?

If I were working for IBM, why would I embrace MAC Operating System and demand a MAC computer.

Because you were smarter than your collegues.