Has God determined all things?

[Herald]

The whole Bible just screams freewill and your so blind you can't or should I say won't see it. Simply because you are so full of your self. Not once is there even the slightest hint of God determining any mans Salvation until that man begins to trust in Christ. Then you sit there a boast as if you know what your talking about. LOL! I've discovered that Calvinist do not read the Bible as a whole they read it by a verse here and one from over there then they place the two together and hope they can fool others into believing what they say. Just like your founder Augustine you are still so Catholic you can't stand it. Living on the crumbs that fall from the Popes table.

Then you must not have much respect for yourself or your fellow Calvinist.
MB

You're acting like an idiot. You need to grow up and converse like an adult.

 

[Iconoclast]

Hey Iconoclast,

It says he knew, not foreordained, who would not believe and the one who would betray him. Now John 6:65 is a good verse, and if I were a Calvinist I would use it more often. But I see it as always, that God provides and offers salvation for all, even Judas that false disciple, through the convicting work of his Holy Spirit, and those who respond in belief are given to Jesus and those who don't are not given to Jesus and are damned to hell. Even those elect Israelites are damned to hell if they believe not Jesus. Judas was a self-made wicked man and he rejected Jesus in unbelief.

JB,

The giving was not based on who would or would not believe.A multitude of sinners were given to Jesus...but not all men.They were considered as fallen and yet in the redeemer. the redeemer comes and dies a covenant death for all those sanctified. this is the biblical teaching more or less.
An:thumbs:ything that opposes this...is not

 

[Benjamin]

According to you! Defend your position biblically.

You are so messed up in your reasoning abilities! You say this then quote me defending it Biblically! You're whole premise centers on removing reason (logic) from the interpretation as I have already noted below!

You have the gall and audacity to quote yourself?! What are you, a credible source that should shut up all dissenting opinions?

Your Ad Hominem does show my "philosophical expression" to be false. Does it? Yet another boneheaded fallacy!

Deuteronomy 32:4 speaks to God's holiness, that His character cannot be impugned. You are so consumed with your opposition to the DoG that you are willing to bend, twist, and contour scripture to fit your presuppositions.

You act as if I didn't clearly address God's attribues as well as your previous statement comparing it concerning Biblical and logical reasoning?!

Try again, read more carefully this time:

Originally Posted by Herald
They cannot provide convincing biblical proof that man can make decisions independent from God either a) knowing about them ~or~ b) determining them. There is no one verse in the Bible that can support their premise. They must build their doctrine within a biblical framework that leads to a logical conclusion.

Originally posted by Benjamin:
A simple comparison logical truth and Biblical truth refutes the above.

If God fore determined all things, including the choices of man, then man cannot be held responsible for his sins as the Determinist claims.

“Free will should be defined as volition and this sustains the meaning that a creature has the ability to consciously choose; one can not do both, have this ability and not have this ability in any logical sense. If creaturely response is determined by causal means to have an irresistible effect on the creature then creaturely volition logically becomes void.” ~ Benjamin

The Bible spells out God’s attributes and says all of God’s ways are judgment in Truth:

Deu 32:4
(4) He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

God cannot make a rock so big that even He cannot lift it as well He cannot an untruth be a truth.

The Determinist attempts to separate reason from truth!

 

[humblethinker]

Icon, in your statement you made a claim against Winman that I would not make nor do I think that you have the authority to make, nor do I think that you had a good reason to make such a claim. Your use of scripture (often a form of argumentum verbosum) requires explanation and I'm not going to bother fishing it or fleshing it out. I think it would be more helpful if you referred to and posted scripture more like a fine painter than an abstract. Maybe if you explained yourself more... Jesus could make the claims he did because he knows the truth and hearts of men. It seems to me that you are making your claims based on your weak, factually unexhaustive opinionated view of truth.

The way you word this sounds like it is dripping with contempt. I have no secret or hidden knowledge HT...no gnostic experiences.... I just have been around many christians from many backrounds.....I speak everyday with people about their soul.Without being able to see their heart[which only God can do] we can see their actions or here on BB their words.

Each of us has some truth and some error..that is a given. And of course we know all that are on BB have professed to be christians...so they must be saved

Is this your form of apology for your comments to winman? Are you saying that you regret what you said to him? I don't quite get what you are saying.

Winman has called me a false teacher,and basically not a believer. It does not bother me..
His lack of solid theology does not allow for him to state otherwise.
I think we should be free to express whatever opinion we have. I many times have pointed out that the word of God cautions against false brethren, false professors.
There are many who do not believe the same as I and others do, but they at least make a reasonable attempt to reason from scripture.

<snip>...
Unless he is joking....to my view he is in serious trouble.If you look he comes in to disrupt the thread, not to really contribute...just resist.

it is not one area...but virtually on every point.

HT.....if I am speaking with a stranger who says these things, I present the gospel to them because it is apparent that they do not grasp any area of teaching.They need the Spirit.

here on the BB..everyone is saved so we cannot say that to them...even if they say the same thing unsaved people say.

HT......if I deny the trinity in my next post...would you call me out on it? or just say some politically correct statement. A few have posted in here in times past doing that very thing...eventually they were weeded out.

Are you disagreeing with the policy of weeding out those who deny the trinity?

By the way...I believe open theism is a theological third rail,and I believe I have urged you and others to use extreme caution, if not to just turn from that error.It will lead to apostasy from the truth if embraced.

Perhaps you can elucidate me on what it is you think open theism teaches such that extreme caution should be exercised... perhaps in another thread.

 

[MB]

You're acting like an idiot. You need to grow up and converse like an adult.

You think I'm acting like an idiot. Well you should go back and read your own post and all the insults you've thrown at born again Christians. You simply haven't a single clue of what you are talking about any way.
MB

 

[Winman]

Here is something I do not do often, quote others. I simply felt this article was well written and it's argument logical. It is a little long, so I shall break it up.

Part 1

PREDESTINATION

BY T.W Brents (1874)

Abridged and Edited by Jeff Paton

Knowledge is one of the adjuncts of faith: "Besides this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue, knowledge." 2 Peter 1:5. "Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though ye know them, and be established in the truth. Yea, I think it meet, as long as I am in this tabernacle, to stir you up by putting you in remembrance; knowing that shortly I must put off this my tabernacle." Vers.12, 13.

There are prominent doctrines taught by those for whose learning and piety we have the most profound respect, which, if true, render it wholly unnecessary, it seems to us, to spend time or labor in instructing the sinner with regard to his duty either to God or man.

That we may place these doctrines properly before the mind of the reader, we beg permission to make a few quotations from the fountain in which they flow.



"God, from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass."

Presbyterian Confession of Faith, chap.iii, sec. I.



To the same import we have the answer to Question 12 (Larger Catechism), as follows:

"God’s decrees are wise, free, and holy acts of the counsel of his will, whereby, from all eternity, he hath, for his own glory,

unchangeably fore-ordained whatsoever comes to pass, especially concerning angels and men."

Now, if the doctrine set forth is true, we think it impossible for man to err. Whatever he does, is in keeping with and brought about by God’s fore-ordination or decree, and therefore can not be wrong. If he does anything- it matters not what- whether good or bad-if God has ordained everything, He has ordained that thing. If it comes to pass that man lies, God has not only ordained that he should lie, but He has unchangeably ordained it. If it come to pass that a man steals, God has unchangeably ordained that too. If it comes to pass that a man kills his neighbor, God has unchangeably ordained that, also. It did come to pass that Cain killed his brother: why, then, did God put a curse upon him for it? It was not only in accordance with the most wise counsel of His will, but He had freely and unchangeably ordained that Cain should do the very thing for which He cursed Him!!! Can any sane man believe it? God has said: " Thou shalt not kill. Thou shalt not commit adultery. Thou shalt not steal. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor." Ex. 20:13-16.

As God has thus plainly forbidden things which do come to pass, it can not be true that He has unchangeably ordained them. That God should unchangeably ordain that a certain thing should come to pass, and at the same time positively forbid it, is an inconsistency entirely incompatible with His divine character, especially when we add to it the thought that He threatens the guilty with endless punishment. Surely, He, whose laws ever bear the impress of that infinite justice, goodness, love, and mercy which characterize their Author, would not punish His dependent creature man in the rude flames of an angry hell forever for doing that which He unchangeably ordained that he should do. "The Lord is good to all: and his tender mercies are all over his works." Ps. 145:9. "The Lord is righteous in all his ways, and holy in all his works." Vers. 17. Therefore when a murderer stains his hands in the blood of his fellow, he cannot take shelter under the doctrine of the creed by saying that God, in ordaining every thing that comes to pass, ordained that he should kill his neighbor, and thereby avoid the responsibility of the act and the punishment due to his crime. It is true that the makers of the creed disclaim the consequences of the doctrine, saying, "Yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin;" but they have failed to show us how His character may be vindicated from such a charge in harmony with such a doctrine; and we are unable to see how God is not the author of what He has unchangeably ordained should come to pass. If He has unchangeably ordained everything that comes to pass, then how can man change God’s unchangeable ordinance? If God unchangeably ordained that a certain man, on a certain day, should do a certain thing, then there is no power left to man not to do the thing; for were he to avoid doing it, he would have changed God’s unchangeable decree, and therefore had more power to change than God had to enforce. Is anyone prepared to assume such a position as this?

The reader will please note the extent of the doctrine in controversy. It is not that God has from all eternity ordained, but that He has unchangeably ordained; not some things, but whatsoever comes to pass---- everything. Surely, the ordinances of God are broken every day. He has ordained that men shall not steal, yet they do steal. He has ordained that they shall not bear false witness, yet they swear falsely every day. God compels no man to keep His ordinances, but He will visit upon him merited punishment if he does not keep them.

God said, "Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown." Jonah 3:4. Here was a positive decree or ordinance of God that did not come to pass, for ‘God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and He did it not." Vers. 10. Was not His decree unchangeable? God said to Hezekiah, "Set thy house in order; for thou shalt die, and not live." 2 Kings 20:1. Here was another positive ordinance which was unchangeable, for Hezekiah turned his face to the wall and prayed, after which God said to him: "I have heard thy prayer, I have seen thy tears; behold, I will heal thee; on the third day thou shalt go up unto the house of the Lord, and I will add unto thy days fifteen years." Vers. 5,6. Here was a decree concerning Hezekiah’s death, which was changed, and his life prolonged fifteen years, and the change induced by his prayers and tears.

When David was at Keilah, he inquired of the Lord, "Will the men of Keilah deliver me and my men into the hand of Saul?" And the Lord said, they will deliver thee up. Then David and his men, which were about six hundred, arose and departed out of Keilah, and went withersoever they could go. 1 Samuel 23:11-13. Had God decreed, from all eternity, whatsoever comes to pass, it occurs to us that He would have answered David differently.; perhaps something after the following style: "No, David, Saul will not come to Keilah, nor will the men of Keilah deliver you into his hands, for I have unchangeably ordained that you shall leave Keilah, and Saul will turn his pursuit in the direction in which you shall go." This is what did come to pass, and certainly God did not tell David what He had fore-ordained to be untrue. Had David remained at Keilah, Saul would have gone there; hence circumstances, and not immutable decrees, controlled this event, even as they do most others.

Other examples might be given, but these are enough to show that God has issued decrees that never have come to pass, nor ever will came to pass. Now, if it is true that God for-ordained the reformation of the Ninevites, the prayers of Hezekiah, and the flight of David from Keilah; hence when He said, "Yet forty days, and Nineheh shall be overthrown," He had for-ordained before time began, that it should not be overthrown, When He told Hezekiah to set his house in order, for he should die and not live, He had for-ordained that he should live fifteen years longer. And when he told David that Saul would come to Keilah, and that the men of Keilah would deliver him and his men to Saul, was it not telling him that events should happen which He had unchangeably ordained to be otherwise? How such a theory is to be harmonized with the word of the Lord, we know not.

 

[Winman]

Part 2, please see previous post for Part 1

By the mouth of his prophet, the Lord said, (Jer. 18:7-10): "At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it; if that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them. And at that instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; if it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them." Here we see the same law obtains as to nations that we have seen applied to cities and individuals. If they, having done evil, turn from the evil, then the Lord proposes to turn from the evil which He purposes doing to them; on the contrary, if they persist in disobedience, they will suffer the consequences, even to extermination. Hence circumstances have ever varied God’s dealings with men.

Again: "God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the Lord that He had made man on the earth, and it grieved Him at his heart." Gen. 6:5, 6. Now, if the Lord for-ordained everything that comes to pass, He for-ordained every thing the antediluvians did: why, then, should He grieve over their wickedness, when every act was but the consummation of His own immutable and eternal decree? Really, it would seem like God would be grieving over His own folly!

The Lord said that the children of Judah had "built again the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind." Jer. 19:5. If God fore-ordained every thing, He for-ordained these things, for they came to pass; yet, He says that he did not command them, nor speak them, neither came then into His mind. Will the advocates of the doctrine please to enlighten the world as to how God for-ordained things which never entered His mind? But we will not press the argument further. If the doctrine be true, the whole theory of sin, accountability, rewards, and punishments, in harmony with justice and mercy, is to us utterly incomprehensible. Every act of man is but carrying out the immutable purposes of Jehovah; and when He gives a man a law, He does it expressly that he may violate it, so as to furnish a pretext for the punishment previously ordained for him. Take the sin of Adam for an example: God made him and placed him under law. It came to pass that he violated this law. He ate of the fruit whereof God commanded him not to eat. If God for-ordained whatsoever comes to pass, then of course He for-ordained that he should eat. Hence Adam was in a strait between the law and the unchangeable ordination or decree. It came to pass that he eat; therefore God ordained that he should eat. The law said he should not eat. One or the other must be broken. He must eat and violate the law; or not eat, and change God's unchangeable decree. This was impossible: hence to eat eat and violate the law was a necessity; and yet God would punish him for it!! Surely, such a theory is at war with the Bible---with all reason and common sense---as well as a reproach upon the character of our Heavenly Father. But able and learned men have taught it, good and true men believe it; therefore we must treat it respectfully, yet examine it fairly, patiently, and thoroughly.

 

[humblethinker]

Yeah, good points. This could have been added:

Exodus 4:8 Then the Lord said, “If they do not believe you or pay attention to the first sign, they may believe the second. 9 But if they do not believe these two signs or listen to you, take some water from the Nile and pour it on the dry ground. The water you take from the river will become blood on the ground.”... 13 But Moses said, “Pardon your servant, Lord. Please send someone else.” 14 Then the Lord’s anger burned against Moses and he said,

This sounds like two open theists here. If God knew that it was certain what the people would believe why did he respond to Moses as though he knew there was a possibility that they might believe and that there was a possibility that they might not believe. God could have said something to reflect the TRUTH of the matter such as, "Hey Moe, I wrote the story! Don't you know that I'm pulling the strings here!" Or, maybe, "Hey Moe, don't worry, it will take three times before they finally believe, so, jus' 'tween yous and me, there is no possible way it can be otherwise." Rather we have God, being the Open Theist that he is ;-) , representing that it was the case that the people might or might not believe Moses. He, being omniscient, knew that there was a possibility, and so, he prepared Moses accordingly.

 

[Iconoclast]

humblethinker

Icon, in your statement you made a claim against Winman that I would not make nor do I think that you have the authority to make, nor do I think that you had a good reason to make such a claim.

Winman and I have expressed similar thoughts before.If you read winmans posts you will see this to be so.As a matter of fact ask him.He believes I am a false teaching parrot. He has a right to think and express what he wants to,he does not have to read my posts. I have every right to answer him or anyone else.
If people want help I try to do that.If they just want to attack I will respond to that also.

Your use of scripture (often a form of argumentum verbosum) requires explanation and I'm not going to bother fishing it or fleshing it out. I think it would be more helpful if you referred to and posted scripture more like a fine painter than an abstract. Maybe if you explained yourself more... Jesus could make the claims he did because he knows the truth and hearts of men. It seems to me that you are making your claims based on your weak, factually unexhaustive opinionated view of truth.

You are welcome to your opinion.I believe this type of opinion expressed is the result of an inability to deal with the verses plain and simple.

Is this your form of apology for your comments to winman? Are you saying that you regret what you said to him? I don't quite get what you are saying.

No....I do not need to apologize to winman at all.If anything my comments were mild as he attacks calvinism at all times.

Are you disagreeing with the policy of weeding out those who deny the trinity?

You missed my point.

 

[Iconoclast]

Benjamin

A simple comparison logical truth and Biblical truth refutes the above.

If God fore determined all things, including the choices of man, then man cannot be held responsible for his sins as the Determinist claims.

No it does not....biblical logic would be something like this:
God is creator ,sustainer, redeemer, and judge

GOD defines all truth and gives meaning to all things.
Men as created beings are responsible to God
God has placed his Holy Moral Law...the ten commandments in mans heart and conscience
Men are responsible to keep them perfectly
The fall into sin and death did not change that requirement and obligation
Jesus perfect life both active and passive obedience is the God given remedy
All sin will be justly punished in the sinner or the Divine substitute.

“Free will should be defined

Free will is a false philosphical idea...it does not exist.




The Bible spells out God’s attributes and says all of God’s ways are judgment in Truth:

Deu 32:4
(4) He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

You like Deut 32...here you go,
35 To me belongeth vengeance and recompence; their foot shall slide in due time: for the day of their calamity is at hand, and the things that shall come upon them make haste.

36 For the Lord shall judge his people, and repent himself for his servants, when he seeth that their power is gone, and there is none shut up, or left.

37 And he shall say, Where are their gods, their rock in whom they trusted,

38 Which did eat the fat of their sacrifices, and drank the wine of their drink offerings? let them rise up and help you, and be your protection.

39 See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.

This is the biblical God.

 

[Iconoclast]

MB

The whole Bible just screams freewill and your so blind you can't or should I say won't see it.

It screams it so much that it actually does not mention it at all:thumbs:

Simply because you are so full of your self.

Herald has done nothing to bring this attack from you

Not once is there even the slightest hint of God determining any mans Salvation until that man begins to trust in Christ.

This betrays a substantial ignorance of biblical salvation, covenant, and the work of the mediator...

9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Then you sit there a boast as if you know what your talking about. LOL

!

Actually...He does:thumbs:

I've discovered that Calvinist do not read the Bible as a whole they read it by a verse here and one from over there then they place the two together and hope they can fool others into believing what they say.

This ignorance is too pathetic to comment on

Just like your founder Augustine you are still so Catholic you can't stand it. Living on the crumbs that fall from the Popes table.

more idiocy

Then you must not have much respect for yourself or your fellow Calvinist.
MB

get well soon

 

[Herald]

Iconoclast,

I appreciate your kind words, but it's okay. Really. It is. I'm heartened by the fact that there are some reasonable people on this board.

 

[Benjamin]

Benjamin


No it does not....biblical logic would be something like this:
God is creator ,sustainer, redeemer, and judge

GOD defines all truth and gives meaning to all things.

In effect you are saying "you" are God in you defining these things!!! Do you not understand the meaning of your OWN REASONING (LOGIC!)!!!

The problem is scripture doesn’t say what your Determinist system interprets it to say, it can’t and God’s attributes be maintained, but that part of the argument is waiting...and you know it, that why you are so evasive. Your game is to always want argue in a never ending circle to say the scriptures present a view of God’s sovereignty that has Him determining all things. All I have asked from is for you to man up and admit what you think your Calvinist/Determinist systems projects which is that God fore determined all things. You are obviously afraid of where your philosophically interpreted system leads and apparently don’t have the integrity to even let the argument be established.

You resort to saying in effect that the Bible "dictates" (assuming your reasoning) what one should believe as if it doesn’t give reason while at the same time arguing (reasoning) about your interpretations of what the Bible tells us. Absolutely ridiculous!!! You even attempt to refute by "reasoning" that a verse (Deut 32:39) discounts what I have demonstrated about verse 4 spelling out God’s attributes of all His ways being judgment in Truth and my maintaining those attributes by concluding (reasoning) verse 39 presents a Determinist view of God. Are you kidding me!!!

You and Herald have given great examples *(“B”) of the stupidity of using this debate tactic of evading giving a valid argument to demonstrate how man be responsible for the sins he cannot freely choose by arguing that reasoning for the truth (logic) to interpret what the Bible says about God’s attributes and justice cannot be reasoned for in truth because you reason (present your logic) the Bible says otherwise!!! Then you go on to discount reasoning for the truth (using logic) by using your "logic"!!!

You two should be ashamed of presenting such non-sensible gibberish and the logical fallacies you use in an attempt to avoid giving valid argument to support your position pertaining to the premise of the argument at hand!!!

“ There is not a bit of logic to the Calvinist conclusion that man is responsible for his sins if his choice is not freely made. So what will they argue to support their Determinist doctrines: A. That man being responsible is a mystery. *B. They will deny logic as a way to determine the truth. C. They will begin with Ad Hominem and try to change the subject. D. They may offer scripture which they interpret as supporting their view of Divine sovereignty while avoiding the second part of the argument asking how man is held responsible, or how God is just to reassign what He is responsible for onto His creatures. But they will not offer a valid argument because there is none to defend their Deterministic position.”

 

[jonathan.borland]

No, you attempt to redefine the word regeneration. The word regeneration means to be alive again. No one is alive again until all their sins are forgiven. Until a person is forgiven they are dead in trespasses and sins.



Yep, whosoever believes on or in Jesus will HAVE (following) life. Faith precedes regeneration, plain as day.


Again, everyone who is believing may HAVE (following) life. Again, scripture shows faith precedes regeneration.



You are refuting your own view. All scholars who translated the many versions of scripture all say that whosoever believes will HAVE life. All scholars show life as a result or effect of believing.



Yes, scripture clearly shows faith precedes and is the cause of regeneration. John 3:36 makes this absolutely clear.

Jhn 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Jesus said the person who believes has life, but the person who believes not shall not see life. This is unmistakable, unless a person intentionally wrests the word of God. Jesus shows that it is necessary to believe to have life, any person who does not believe shall not see life.




And I could say the same to you, refusing to admit that all scripture shows faith preceding regeneration does not make you correct. You are the one who is wresting scripture, I accept scripture for what it simply and plainly says.

You got it here Winman. It is completely unbiblical to say with the Calvinists that one is regenerated or born again before he even believes! How contrary to the whole thrust of Scripture. So what happens to the professed Calvinist who dies after his supposed regeneration but before believing?

 

[Iconoclast]

Iconoclast,

I appreciate your kind words, but it's okay. Really. It is. I'm heartened by the fact that there are some reasonable people on this board.

I know that you are confident in The Lord and His word. You post solidly.Some do not have the integrity to answer with reasoned scriptures,and questions, they attack instead and we all lose out as the knowledge of scripture gets placed behind all this other logically , emotional, or philosophical waste.

I have a morbid curiosity as to why they do this. I have my own ideas and scriptural ideas at that as to why

 

[Iconoclast]

Benjamin,

In effect you are saying "you" are God in you defining these things!!! Do you not understand the meaning of your OWN REASONING (LOGIC!)!!!

Not at all....God has revealed these truths in His word.....we are to think God's thoughts after Him...as Image bearers. we are to faithfully declare his word.

This should not be confusing to you...you are over-thinking it...bigtime.

Your game is to always want argue in a never ending circle to say the scriptures present a view of God’s sovereignty that has Him determining all things. All I have asked from is for you to man up and admit what you think your Calvinist/Determinist systems projects which is that God fore determined all things. You are obviously afraid of where your philosophically interpreted system leads and apparently don’t have the integrity to even let the argument be established.

false....God does not make man sin...i answered you on this and you did not respond.Judas was not forced..or using your term which i do not see in the bible...fore -determined to sin....he sinned because he wanted to.

If you want to discuss logical fallacies...look at your own contention that anything can exist outside of God's control.God would not be God if such could occur.

You resort to saying in effect that the Bible "dictates" (assuming your reasoning) what one should believe as if it doesn’t give reason while at the same time arguing (reasoning) about your interpretations of what the Bible tells us. Absolutely ridiculous!!! You even attempt to refute by "reasoning" that a verse (Deut 32:39) discounts what I have demonstrated about verse 4 spelling out God’s attributes of all His ways being judgment in Truth and my maintaining those attributes by concluding (reasoning) verse 39 presents a Determinist view of God. Are you kidding me!!!

verse 4,and vs 39...speak consistent with all the scripture of the absoluteness of the sovereignty of God.
115 Not unto us, O Lord, not unto us, but unto thy name give glory, for thy mercy, and for thy truth's sake.

2 Wherefore should the heathen say, Where is now their God?

3 But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.

it is not my "reasoning'..it is biblical revelation...everywhere in scripture...how do you not see this??? dan 4;35..it is everywhere..why would you deny this clear teaching..explain to me why the verses do not mean what they say???

You and Herald have given great examples *(“B”) of the stupidity of using this debate tactic of evading giving a valid argument to demonstrate how man be responsible for the sins he cannot freely choose by arguing that reasoning for the truth (logic) to interpret what the Bible says about God’s attributes and justice cannot be reasoned for in truth because you reason (present your logic) the Bible says otherwise!!! Then you go on to discount reasoning for the truth (using logic) by using your "logic"!!!

benjamin...the 10 commandments are the answer here. Jesus kept them ..we did not...all men will be judged by that standard...not logic, just bible

You two should be ashamed of presenting such non-sensible gibberish and the logical fallacies you use in an attempt to avoid giving valid argument to support your position pertaining to the premise of the argument at hand!!!

Bible based statements are not....gibberish
your last paragraph has been answered

 

[Herald]

I know that you are confident in The Lord and His word. You post solidly.Some do not have the integrity to answer with reasoned scriptures,and questions, they attack instead and we all lose out as the knowledge of scripture gets placed behind all this other logically , emotional, or philosophical waste.

I have a morbid curiosity as to why they do this. I have my own ideas and scriptural ideas at that as to why

My personal assumption is that there is a rabid opposition to the DoG in Baptist circles. One only needs to look at the SBC and some of the diatribes coming from the free will side.

Thankfully we only encounter these people in venues such as this, unless you have the unhappy providence of being related to one!

 

[Herald]

I would be remiss if I did not call attention to the many I know on the free will side who are civil and respectful. We agree to disagree. I've seen some of these come to embrace the DoG through patient instruction. It's a joy to interact with these brethren because of the manner in which they conduct themselves.

 

[Iconoclast]

My personal assumption is that there is a rabid opposition to the DoG in Baptist circles. One only needs to look at the SBC and some of the diatribes coming from the free will side.

Thankfully we only encounter these people in venues such as this, unless you have the unhappy providence of being related to one!

:thumbs::thumbs: I used to naievly think...they must have never heard these things.....but I have learned that many turn from it.
I also agree there are many who do not believe all things this way,but yet because they know the Lord ,they pursue holiness of life.
Sometimes on moody radio there is a speaker james mcdonald that gives alot of sound teaching on other areas that he is worth the listening time!

 

[Benjamin]

it is not my "reasoning'..it is biblical revelation

Translation:

false....God does not make man sin...i answered you on this and you did not respond

And of course you did not answer me with your reasoning, but God's. Unbelievable this kind of mentality would be allowed to be expressed here to defend one's position!

Note my "cult-like" reference (especially for Icon, as demonstrated above) in my argument that has been shamefully neglected with tactics just as spelled out it would be in post #29 throughout this debate. In this case because of an attempt to downplay using one's own reasoning ..."logic" (B)

You'd think I'd be the one to have some bragging rights of having special revelation before Icon. :smilewinkgrin:

I believe anyone not brain washed into the Doctrines of Determinstic Pre-selected Grace can plainly see how you have disingenuously avoided getting to the truth in this debate and and is aware of the tactics you've used to do so.

...everywhere in scripture...how do you not see this???

"D" of post #29.


I see the Determinists have now turned to playing the martyr...poor Calvinist/Determinist/DoGs. :tear:

I think some just may be a “lost cause” on accepting the condition of receiving grace through "real" faith…literally. Because of own their intellectual and personal pride they argue for a system to support their own inability to freely chose to accept the gift of God and likewise seem to take pleasure in telling others that they might not have been so “lucky” as them to be pre-selected while proudly broadcasting their systematic soteriological view to all and in disregard that they are telling others they may have been pre-determined to not have faith instead of telling them they “real” hope in the promises of the Gospel given to all men. Maybe it makes them feel better for having been “caused” to believe in God if they go about making Him out to be some sort of tyrant despot with their doctrines of sovereign determinism, I can’t even imagine how someone who truly knows Him could follow a doctrine which comes to such conclusions. Determinism is a terrible doctrine. And it does not add up to the truth any way they attempt to "reason" for it.

:flower:

I have better things to do than to continue to argue with people like this...