Has God determined all things?

[OldRegular]

Originally Posted by OldRegular
You are avoiding the issue and "begging the question". The Doctrines of Grace clearly teach that Faith in Jesus Christ is an essential part of Salvation. John 3:16 simply states this truth. It states nothing about the order of Salvation. You have been shown innumerable times that regeneration precedes faith: In the words of Jesus Christ Himself, John 3:3ff, and in the words of Jesus Christ as revealed to the Apostle Paul, Ephesians 2:1ff. Now look at John 3:16 from the KJV, Young's Literal, and Greens Literal. I believe they establish what Icon posted.

Response Posted by Winman
No, you attempt to redefine the word regeneration. The word regeneration means to be alive again. No one is alive again until all their sins are forgiven. Until a person is forgiven they are dead in trespasses and sins.

JOHN 3:3-8
3. Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?
5. Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Jesus Christ is telling Nicodemus what happens in the new birth or regeneration. Now show me where Jesus Christ states that Faith or belief is a prerequisite. The New Birth is solely the work of the Holy Spirit.

Ephesians 2:1-7, NASB
1. And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,
2. in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
3. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
4. But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5. even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
6. and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus,
7. in order that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

The Apostle Paul in the above passage discusses what takes place in the New Birth or Regeneration. Note in particular verses 4 and 5 which I have emphasized. When we were dead in our transgressions God made us a live. This is exactly what Jesus Christ has told us in John 3:3-8 which we would expect since He is the author of both. Now Winman dead men don walk, talk, breath, believe. Similarly those who are spiritually dead are unable to believe!

Originally posted by OldRegular
KJV: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Response Posted by Winman
Yep, whosoever believes on or in Jesus will HAVE (following) life. Faith precedes regeneration, plain as day.

Yep whoever believes in Jesus Christ has eternal life. I have tried to tell you repeatedly over the years that we who believe salvation is only by the Sovereign Grace of God believe in Jesus Christ. However, again you read something into the passage which is not there. The passage says nothing about the New Birth.

Originally posted by OldRegular
YLT: for God did so love the world, that His Son--the only begotten--He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.

Response Posted by Winman
Again, everyone who is believing may HAVE (following) life. Again, scripture shows faith precedes regeneration.

Yep whoever believes in Jesus Christ has eternal life. I have tried to tell you repeatedly over the years that we who believe salvation is only by the Sovereign Grace of God believe in Jesus Christ. However, again you read something into the passage which is not there. The passage says nothing about the New Birth.

Originally posted by OldRegular
GLT: For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that everyone believing into Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Response Posted by Winman
You are refuting your own view. All scholars who translated the many versions of scripture all say that whosoever believes will HAVE life. All scholars show life as a result or effect of believing.

ALL SCHOLARS, ALL SCHOLARS? Really Winman where did you get that nonsense!

Originally posted by OldRegular
No it does't Winman! Repeating that endlessly does not make it any more true than the first time you said it!

Response Posted by Winman

Yes, scripture clearly shows faith precedes and is the cause of regeneration. John 3:36 makes this absolutely clear.

Jhn 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Jesus said the person who believes has life, but the person who believes not shall not see life. This is unmistakable, unless a person intentionally wrests the word of God. Jesus shows that it is necessary to believe to have life, any person who does not believe shall not see life.

No one who believes in the Sovereign Grace of God in the Salvation of His elect would deny what we are taught in John 3:36. We honor the Word of God. I would remind you Winman, not that it will have any impact on your blindness, what Jesus Christ tells us in His letter to the Hebrews:

Hebrews 5:9. And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
Hebrews 12:2. Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Please note that Jesus Christ is not only the author but the finisher of our faith.

Originally posted by OldRegular
Repeating that endlessly does not make it any more true than the first time you said it!

Response Posted by Winman
And I could say the same to you, refusing to admit that all scripture shows faith preceding regeneration does not make you correct. You are the one who is wresting scripture, I accept scripture for what it simply and plainly says.

Perhaps one day in this life Winman you will come to truly appreciate the marvelous Grace of God.

 

[Iconoclast]

Benjamin,

Note my "cult-like" reference (especially for Icon, as demonstrated above) in my argument that has been shamefully neglected with tactics just as spelled out it would be in post #29 throughout this debate. In this case because of an attempt to downplay using one's own reasoning ..."logic" (B)

well...in post 19 I said this:

I do not think you can address Heralds points without setting out your philosophical web as you like to do. You deflect from the main discussion, set out your trap...if no one takes the bait you claim it is them who do not want to engage the topic.
I find this happens often as you use this method of accusing us of doing the very thing you do. You project your own method on us.

this is exactly what you have done in most of this thread.like this:

My philosophical expression presents a simple valid logical truth concerning “free will/volition” (synonyms, not semantic ambiguity) that even a child could understand as standing in truth.

Then the only conclusion one can come to concerning judgment is that man must be held responsible for his choices which were fore determined by God

The Calvinist/Determinist claim

There is not a bit of logic to the Calvinist conclusion that man is responsible for his sins if his choice is not freely made

their Determinist doctrines:will begin with Ad HominemIn a cult-like fashion, with what appears to be an Archie Bunker type of phikosophy many Determinists continue to use their invalid arguments for the “Doctrines of Deterministic Pre-selected Grace”
alleged Deterministic characteristics ,
The Determinists clearly deny these Truths of God’s Divine attributes
In logically voiding the Goodness
The Hyper-Determinist
The doctrines of Calvinism/Determinism unavoidably logically lead into theological fatalism
Strawman
for Libertarian Free Will and not exhaustive determinism
to believe through your determinist system
in repeating this strawman and thereby it was also disingenuous,
I was wrong on your motive for repeating this strawman, I'm truly sorry…
have no desire to deal with your ignorant determinist dogma nor spend the time dealing with your common Calvinist ploy here of making that accusation
how you come to those conclusions of determinism concerning Divine foreknowledge. I’ve been over and over this point in the "Molinist Differentiated from Calvinist" tread
I compared your philosophy of Determinism to that of true Creaturely Volition in post #29 and spelled the problems of holding to such a doctrine as Determinism. I don't expect you to prove anything I said there against determinism to be false
but that's all (Determinist logic
I don't expect you you refute what I said as like I said said in that post your system of Determinism has no valid argument against my claims which I made in post #29.
hat you think fits to support your Determinist System but I’ve been there, done that, dealt with the logic of your system’s interpretations and I’m not really interested in chasing all those rabbits again.
Me thinks you got this defense straight out of the "Calvinist/Hyper-Determinst Tactics Book" on how to attack those who disagree with the Determinist view


In post 70..I tried to cut off your nonsense here:

We all tell you determinism is fatalism...we are not fatalists. You do not understand this evidently.Stop hiding behind philosophy, syllogisms, debate fallacies, and deal with scripture. Deut 32;4 is a good verse..we all like it..try to branch out a bit more...
i answered you at length but the connection was disrupted and it was lost.....we made some progress, but now you are claiming your rabbit trail defence...so you are in need of a rest perhaps....lol ...later on my friend Benjamin..

It turns out that I was prophetic....you continue on in your cocoon-

e you "logically" what would be considered a Determinist? Then we can begin to look at the conseqences of involved with Determinist and where they lead, okay?
Again concerning whether or not man has free will/volition which I have shown to be logically mutually exclusive to Doctrines of Determinism
Well, as you can see on this board one can “try” and stick to subject but others/most here have no respect whatsoever to debate ethically
so they continue in their childish unethical debating ways.
w the Doctrines of Determinism become Theologically Fatalistic
It is interesting to note how quickly Determinists will resort to A-D to defend their doctrines.
otally destroy the Determinst conclusions on responsibility!

Same old, same old, don't know why I bother here!
I’ve established a logical definition for Determinism and it fits your view like a second skin; doesn’t matter whether you like the term or not.
he fact remains your view is that God fore determined all things and that defines the "Determinist" view adequately.
You are a Determinist, like the term or not this term has meaning as established with a simple bit of logic that even a child could understand as truth.

You're not going to get out of this "logical web" of truth which is merely a tool to support the argument by defining terms. Admit it...You're trapped again!
There is not a bit of logic to the Calvinist conclusion that man is responsible for his sins if his choice is not freely made
Do you, or do you not believe God fore determined all things? All we need here is an honest answer from you. If yes, I will describe your view as a view of Determinism, thus you as a Determinis
Otherwise people might think you are using disingenuous debate tactics to avoid this simple issue of establishing a definition for your view.
Your statement has no validity to it no matter "what man's faultly Deterministic interpretations" it echoes!
while referring to his "Calvinist/Hyper-Determinst Tactics Book":
hese types of fallacious debate tactics being used on this board.
Your Ad Hominem does show my "philosophical expression" to be false. Does it? Yet another boneheaded fallacy!
You two should be ashamed of presenting such non-sensible gibberish and the logical fallacies
I believe anyone not brain washed into the Doctrines of Determinstic Pre-selected Grace can plainly see how you have disingenuously avoided getting to the truth in this debate and and is aware of the tactics you've used to do so.

Determinism is a terrible doctrine.

Your own words condemn you....

I have better things to do than to continue to argue with people like this..

You are not trying to learn, but argue....you never address the scripture like I s!aid in post 19......the funny part is it is..it is you that build the determinist strawman and are guilty of the strawman fallacy////lol// You are too much


deut 32:4 does not cover this nonsense

 

[Winman]

JOHN 3:3-8
3. Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?
5. Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Jesus Christ is telling Nicodemus what happens in the new birth or regeneration. Now show me where Jesus Christ states that Faith or belief is a prerequisite. The New Birth is solely the work of the Holy Spirit.

Ephesians 2:1-7, NASB
1. And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,
2. in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
3. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
4. But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5. even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
6. and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus,
7. in order that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

The Apostle Paul in the above passage discusses what takes place in the New Birth or Regeneration. Note in particular verses 4 and 5 which I have emphasized. When we were dead in our transgressions God made us a live. This is exactly what Jesus Christ has told us in John 3:3-8 which we would expect since He is the author of both. Now Winman dead men don walk, talk, breath, believe. Similarly those who are spiritually dead are unable to believe!





Yep whoever believes in Jesus Christ has eternal life. I have tried to tell you repeatedly over the years that we who believe salvation is only by the Sovereign Grace of God believe in Jesus Christ. However, again you read something into the passage which is not there. The passage says nothing about the New Birth.



Yep whoever believes in Jesus Christ has eternal life. I have tried to tell you repeatedly over the years that we who believe salvation is only by the Sovereign Grace of God believe in Jesus Christ. However, again you read something into the passage which is not there. The passage says nothing about the New Birth.






ALL SCHOLARS, ALL SCHOLARS? Really Winman where did you get that nonsense!





No one who believes in the Sovereign Grace of God in the Salvation of His elect would deny what we are taught in John 3:36. We honor the Word of God. I would remind you Winman, not that it will have any impact on your blindness, what Jesus Christ tells us in His letter to the Hebrews:

Hebrews 5:9. And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
Hebrews 12:2. Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Please note that Jesus Christ is not only the author but the finisher of our faith.


Perhaps one day in this life Winman you will come to truly appreciate the marvelous Grace of God.

So, your argument is that regeneration and salvation are not the same thing? Are you saying a person can be regenerated and not saved?

Are you saying a person can be regenerated and afterward be lost?

Explain in detail the difference between regeneration and salvation, and please provide scripture that clearly shows these differences.

Jesus said that whoever has believed has passed from death to life. This is regeneration, regeneration mean to be alive again.

Jhn 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

If a person who believes is passed from death to life, then it is impossible to be regenerated without belief, because before you believed you had not passed from death to life, you were still dead.

You cannot be dead and alive at the same time! This shows your great error. No man is regenerated or alive until he first believes!

And if a person has passed from death to life they are saved. That is salvation.

This is the problem with your false doctrine. You must redefine the words regeneration and salvation, which really are the same thing. To be regenerated means to be passed from death to life, to be saved. You attempt to make this into two separate events, but Jesus clearly said the moment a person believes they are passed from death to life. That person is now saved.

What are we saved from? Our sins!

Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Salvation means to be saved from our sins. It is to no longer be under condemnation for our sins. No person is forgiven or justified until they first believe. No person is ALIVE until they believe, no person is regenerated until they believe, because until you believe you are dead in your trespasses and sins.

Because you and others pervert the scriptures, you go deeper and deeper into error.

Jesus was telling Nicodemus how to be born again John chapter 3. He was telling Nicodemus he must believe to have his sins forgiven so he can be born or made alive again.

Your teaching is false.

 

[Winman]

​

You got it here Winman. It is completely unbiblical to say with the Calvinists that one is regenerated or born again before he even believes! How contrary to the whole thrust of Scripture. So what happens to the professed Calvinist who dies after his supposed regeneration but before believing?

Well, some will say that believing and regeneration happen at the same moment (while insisting that regeneration occurs first), while others will go so far as to say a person can be regenerated for years, even decades before they believe.

The problem with Calvinists is that they do not understand why a person is "dead" in the first place. A person is spiritually dead because of sin, the moment a person sins they are separated from God and spiritually dead.

No person can be spiritually alive while they are still dead in trespasses and sins. Only when a person believes and is justified can they be spiritually alive/regenerated, therefore logically faith MUST precede regeneration.

It is actually a very simple concept, but no Calvinist will admit this truth.

 

[OldRegular]

So, your argument is that regeneration and salvation are not the same thing? Are you saying a person can be regenerated and not saved?

Are you saying a person can be regenerated and afterward be lost?

Explain in detail the difference between regeneration and salvation, and please provide scripture that clearly shows these differences.

Jesus said that whoever has believed has passed from death to life. This is regeneration, regeneration mean to be alive again.

Jhn 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

If a person who believes is passed from death to life, then it is impossible to be regenerated without belief, because before you believed you had not passed from death to life, you were still dead.

You cannot be dead and alive at the same time! This shows your great error. No man is regenerated or alive until he first believes!

And if a person has passed from death to life they are saved. That is salvation.

This is the problem with your false doctrine. You must redefine the words regeneration and salvation, which really are the same thing. To be regenerated means to be passed from death to life, to be saved. You attempt to make this into two separate events, but Jesus clearly said the moment a person believes they are passed from death to life. That person is now saved.

What are we saved from? Our sins!

Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Salvation means to be saved from our sins. It is to no longer be under condemnation for our sins. No person is forgiven or justified until they first believe. No person is ALIVE until they believe, no person is regenerated until they believe, because until you believe you are dead in your trespasses and sins.

Because you and others pervert the scriptures, you go deeper and deeper into error.

Jesus was telling Nicodemus how to be born again John chapter 3. He was telling Nicodemus he must believe to have his sins forgiven so he can be born or made alive again.

Your teaching is false.

Perhaps one day in this life Winman you will come to truly appreciate the marvelous Grace of God.

 

[Winman]

Perhaps one day in this life Winman you will come to truly appreciate the marvelous Grace of God.

I would hardly call the doctrine you believe in marvelous, like Charles Wesley I would call it HORRIBLE.

Perhaps someday you will come to know [what is in my opinion] the true gospel.

 

[OldRegular]

I would hardly call the doctrine you believe in marvelous, like Charles Wesley I would call it HORRIBLE.

Winman,

I did not call the doctrine marvelous, I called the Grace of God marvelous!

There are none so blind as those who will not see!

Perhaps someday you will come to know the true gospel.

I have experienced the true Gospel of Grace!

 

[WITBOTL]

Witbotl, you are alright! I appreciate your humor. I don't think I disagree with anything you've said here, except your 're-Poe-ing' me! ;-). The thing about logic though is that God does expect us to use our minds in reasoning about the scriptures and communing with him and others, this makes sense and, what's more is that such is evident in revelation. I can agree with the idea that revelation trumps human logic. The task before us is to give a best effort at understanding what is revealed, and it is in this effort where we (people) find disagreement. It is reasoning and logic that we use to understand the revelation. You do trust in reasoning after all, don't you? Otherwise how could one even start to comprehend what is revealed, or that it IS revealed?

I agree HT that God has given us the faculties of reason and the ability to use logic and so we must in learning and communicating the Word of God. I agree with your statement. However, we would do well to recognize that there is a reasoned or logical understanding that we can get but there is also a kind of spiritual understanding that does not come about merely by mental effort. I'm sure many of us have had the experience of understanding some scripture logically but not REALLY spiritually understanding it; then God giving us a spiritual understanding of it which does not do away with our reasoning but does I think operate in a different sphere and provides a far deeper and solidified understanding than what we previously only understood mentally. Does that make sense?

I suppose I would have to say I try to trust my reasoning with the caution of my fallibility and imperfection and the recognition that the more I learn, the less I seem to know.

 

[WITBOTL]

So man makes choices according to the pre-determined “nature upon him” yet this is still defined as a “choice”? I fail to see you or anyone else here support such a conclusion that this is possible? Just saying so with a ("Nevertheless") doesn't make it true. Your statement has no validity to it no matter "what man's faultly Deterministic interpretations" it echoes!

“Free will should be defined as volition and this sustains the meaning that a creature has the ability to consciously choose; one can not do both, have this ability and not have this ability in any logical sense. If creaturely response is determined by causal means to have an irresistible effect on the creature then creaturely volition logically becomes void.” ~ Benjamin

sorry Ben, but I am not impressed with your own quoted definition of free will. Your concept that volition can only actually be volition if it is free from influences and compulsions upon it is absurd. If you eat chocolate and like it, this experience will most likely influence you to "will" to have more chocolate. According to your definition any subsequent choices to eat chocolate are not volitional, your will is no longer involved and volition is void because you have been corrupted by the good taste and compelled by the fond memory to have more. It is no longer a choice to eat because the influences on your will have predetermined your eating…

This illustrates the whole point between distinguishing the term "free will" from the term "will" (or volition) . The adjective actually denotes something and its absence is not the logical anti-matter that you think it is. We will things according to a number of influences and compulsions and conflicting desires and this range of internal and external influences inform - dare I say determine (!) - our choices. We do not make our choices in some kind of hermetically sealed clean room of evenly balanced and equally choosable options.

If the causal means which determine creaturely response act upon the will of man then by definition that response is STILL volitional.

I didn't want chocolate until I tried it, then I wanted it. The causal means which determined my eating chocolate is that I had a taste and I liked it and then I wanted it (ie. my will changed due to the causal means of tasting it) Tasting it didn't force me to eat more, but it did change my will and determine my choice. My will was not free, but my will was still a will. My choice was constrained and compelled but it was still by my volition (exercise of the will)

 

[Iconoclast]

JOHN 3:3-8
3. Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?
5. Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Jesus Christ is telling Nicodemus what happens in the new birth or regeneration. Now show me where Jesus Christ states that Faith or belief is a prerequisite. The New Birth is solely the work of the Holy Spirit.

Ephesians 2:1-7, NASB
1. And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,
2. in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
3. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
4. But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5. even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
6. and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus,
7. in order that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

The Apostle Paul in the above passage discusses what takes place in the New Birth or Regeneration. Note in particular verses 4 and 5 which I have emphasized. When we were dead in our transgressions God made us a live. This is exactly what Jesus Christ has told us in John 3:3-8 which we would expect since He is the author of both. Now Winman dead men don walk, talk, breath, believe. Similarly those who are spiritually dead are unable to believe!





Yep whoever believes in Jesus Christ has eternal life. I have tried to tell you repeatedly over the years that we who believe salvation is only by the Sovereign Grace of God believe in Jesus Christ. However, again you read something into the passage which is not there. The passage says nothing about the New Birth.



Yep whoever believes in Jesus Christ has eternal life. I have tried to tell you repeatedly over the years that we who believe salvation is only by the Sovereign Grace of God believe in Jesus Christ. However, again you read something into the passage which is not there. The passage says nothing about the New Birth.






ALL SCHOLARS, ALL SCHOLARS? Really Winman where did you get that nonsense!





No one who believes in the Sovereign Grace of God in the Salvation of His elect would deny what we are taught in John 3:36. We honor the Word of God. I would remind you Winman, not that it will have any impact on your blindness, what Jesus Christ tells us in His letter to the Hebrews:

Hebrews 5:9. And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
Hebrews 12:2. Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Please note that Jesus Christ is not only the author but the finisher of our faith.






Perhaps one day in this life Winman you will come to truly appreciate the marvelous Grace of God.

You have clearly presented truth as in many times past.Some who are reading will enjoy the good verses and learn,Others come to resist and trample on clear truth,they have not been allowed to welcome it.

No matter who proclaims truth they will always resist and turn from it:

61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?

62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?

63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

 

[Benjamin]

If the causal means which determine creaturely response act upon the will of man then by definition that response is STILL volitional.

So you agree with me that God acts upon the will of man and does not fore-determined all things, including man's nature that that his will would be so pre-determined and under his sovereign control???

 

[humblethinker]

I agree HT that God has given us the faculties of reason and the ability to use logic and so we must in learning and communicating the Word of God. I agree with your statement. However, we would do well to recognize that there is a reasoned or logical understanding that we can get but there is also a kind of spiritual understanding that does not come about merely by mental effort. I'm sure many of us have had the experience of understanding some scripture logically but not REALLY spiritually understanding it; then God giving us a spiritual understanding of it which does not do away with our reasoning but does I think operate in a different sphere and provides a far deeper and solidified understanding than what we previously only understood mentally. Does that make sense?

I suppose I would have to say I try to trust my reasoning with the caution of my fallibility and imperfection and the recognition that the more I learn, the less I seem to know.

WITBOTL, this is good. I'm enjoying this... maybe in a less distracting thread we could expound and elaborate more... I think I agree and understand what you are saying. Let me ask you this: Is the 'epiphany', if you will, of your spiritual understanding explainable? Is it still logical? It is not the case that it is illogical in retrospect, correct? So, what I'm thinking is that the spiritual epiphany is always logical - at least from God's perspective. Once we have God's perspective then it can be explained and the explanation would be logical. For instance, I feel that I have a personal obligation to care for the poor. I can see how in some particular instances that would appear to be illogical. It may be the case that God is impressing upon me to give a certain 'posession' to someone in need. It may appear to be an illogical action but from God's perspective it is very logical. So, in this case a spiritual matter may conflict with my estimation of what is a logical action and, in this sense, I must surrender my mental faculties to the spritual.

It seems to me that the readings of scripture that are illuminated due to spiritual 'epiphany' are the readings that the Spirit prompts us to exercise our faith. This seems to be a personal issue, since we cannot point to a passage of scripture and say something to the effect of, "If someone doesn't understand that this passage means this then it is because their eyes have not been opened spiritually.". Jesus could say that about specific people with definite knowledge and authority. We can speculate at best.