HAS GOD'S WORD BEEN PURIFIED SEVEN TIMES?

[robycop3]

I think that you are saying that English translation that are done off the original language texts have authority and are infallible, correct? Not perfect translations, but are authoritative for all doctrines and practices?

That's correct. I believe GOD caused them to come out so His intent of His word is fully conveyed to us. I believe the MESSAGE is more-important than the exact words, as JESUS often quoted OT Scriptures with words other than the original writings.

But again, God's words were NOT purified; only translated, as He caused them to be spread among many peoples & nations. ("Word purification" is a KJVO invention!)

 

[John of Japan]

Any multilingual person will say that some subtleties & nuances of an original work are always lost in any translation of it to another language. While I believe that's true of translating the ancient Scriptural mss. into other languages, i believe GOD superintends the translating so it comes out the way HE wants. I don't believe any doctrine or precept He wants us to know has been lost in translations.

And, as I said above, I do NOT believe God's word has been purified 7 times. I don't believe it's been purified ONCE. I believe every word of God to men was pure the instant He uttered it.

The term "superintend" is usually reserved by theologians for how the Bible was verbally inspired. I don't believe that God "superintends" a translation, but rather that the Holy Spirit guides it. The translators, individually and corporately, pray for guidance, and the Holy Spirit answers that prayer so that the translators usually do a good job.

There is no guarantee in Scripture that a translation can be inerrant (and I know you agree). If it were superintended, it could become inerrant, IMO. as translators, we do the best we can, but since we humans are the ones superintending, the translation will have errors. We are proofing our Lifeline NT now, and it certainly has errors. i just got the corrections in Acts from Katsuyuki in Japan, and there are quite a few!

 

[Martin Marprelate]

as translators, we do the best we can, but since we humans are the ones superintending, the translation will have errors. We are proofing our Lifeline NT now, and it certainly has errors. i just got the corrections in Acts from Katsuyuki in Japan, and there are quite a few!

Quite right! You wouldn't want to suffer the fate of the printers of the 'Wicked Bible.'
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wicked_Bible

 

[John of Japan]

Quite right! You wouldn't want to suffer the fate of the printers of the 'Wicked Bible.'
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wicked_Bible

Indubitably!

 

[Yeshua1]

The term "superintend" is usually reserved by theologians for how the Bible was verbally inspired. I don't believe that God "superintends" a translation, but rather that the Holy Spirit guides it. The translators, individually and corporately, pray for guidance, and the Holy Spirit answers that prayer so that the translators usually do a good job.

There is no guarantee in Scripture that a translation can be inerrant (and I know you agree). If it were superintended, it could become inerrant, IMO. as translators, we do the best we can, but since we humans are the ones superintending, the translation will have errors. We are proofing our Lifeline NT now, and it certainly has errors. i just got the corrections in Acts from Katsuyuki in Japan, and there are quite a few!

This is where the KJVO goes off the tracks, as they indeed hold the KJV was superintended/inspired to be without any errors/mistakes by God.

 

[John of Japan]

This is where the KJVO goes off the tracks, as they indeed hold the KJV was superintended/inspired to be without any errors/mistakes by God.

Not all say this.

 

[Yeshua1]

Not all say this.

true, but the really radical ones do indeed, see Ruckman and Kiplinger!

 

[Jerome]

Oh no! Kiplinger's KJVO?
Thanks for warning us, Yeshua1/Dachaser1/JesusFan!
I've had suspicions of my own, about Louis Rukeyser, and that Suze Orman!

 

[Logos1560]

The term "superintend" is usually reserved by theologians for how the Bible was verbally inspired. I don't believe that God "superintends" a translation, but rather that the Holy Spirit guides it. .

KJV-only advocates sometimes use the term "superintend" concerning the making of the KJV or make other similar type claims for it.

Lee Henise claimed: "We do not believe in double inspiration, that is, that the KJV was reinspired. Rather, we believe that God superintended the translation of the KJV in order to preserve its integrity and inspiration" (MBBC Swordsman, Winter 1994).

Mickey Carter asserted that God "did superintend and guard over them [KJV translators] to preserve the Word" (Things That Are Different, p. 149).

Ralph Yarnell wrote: "If the Holy Spirit was in the translation, then it is an inerrant translation, for the Holy Spirit would not be a party to anything less" (A Fresh Look at the KJB, p. 21). Will Kinney maintained: “If we have the God-given text and the God-given meaning of that text communicated by way of another language, as I firmly believe we do in the King James Bible, it is still the inspired word of God” (Flaming Torch, July-Sept., 2003, p. 3). Wendell Runion claimed: “Preserving stops the process of corruption in food. So the Holy Ghost stopped the corruption of the Word of God when He continued His inspiration in the AV 1611 King James Bible” (Northwest News, Summer, 2009, p. 7). Roy Branson claimed: "Under the Divine, faultless direction of the Holy Spirit they [the KJV translators] gave us the most exact possible English word for every word and phrase in the Bible" (KJV 1611, p. 25). Charles Keen wrote that the Word of God was “preserved in translation and perfected through a Divinely guided process in the English translation as translated from the Textus Receptus and commonly referred to as the ’Authorized’ or the ’King James version’” (Bearing Precious Seed Newsletter, Fall, 2001, p. 2). Gary Miller wrote: “God helped them [the KJV translators] write a perfect English translation of the Bible” (Why the KJB, p. 41). William Grady referred to “the breath of God’s Spirit being directly involved with the entire transmission process” (Given by Inspiration, p. 96).

 

[robycop3]

The term "superintend" is usually reserved by theologians for how the Bible was verbally inspired. I don't believe that God "superintends" a translation, but rather that the Holy Spirit guides it. The translators, individually and corporately, pray for guidance, and the Holy Spirit answers that prayer so that the translators usually do a good job.

There is no guarantee in Scripture that a translation can be inerrant (and I know you agree). If it were superintended, it could become inerrant, IMO. as translators, we do the best we can, but since we humans are the ones superintending, the translation will have errors. We are proofing our Lifeline NT now, and it certainly has errors. i just got the corrections in Acts from Katsuyuki in Japan, and there are quite a few!

I was going by the everyday use of "superintend'. At my job, we have foreman, & each dept. has a superintendent who oversees the foremen. So I am figuring that God, as ultimate Super-Superintendent of everything, causes translations of His word by faithful, well-meaning people, to come out as HE chooses. Thus, you're receiving guidance in your Japanese translation, assuming your helper is also a Christian.

naturally, every translation in any language is gonna have some human error and thought in it, as, after all, every Bible translation is the product of God's perfect word being handled by imperfect men, but all of them made by genuine Christians who mean well will carry all of God's messages and teachings meant for all mankind.

Seems as if your Japanese translation is being "purified" by your Japanese helpers, but no one is actually trying to purify God's words themselves.

 

[John of Japan]

KJV-only advocates sometimes use the term "superintend" concerning the making of the KJV or make other similar type claims for it.

Lee Henise claimed: "We do not believe in double inspiration, that is, that the KJV was reinspired. Rather, we believe that God superintended the translation of the KJV in order to preserve its integrity and inspiration" (MBBC Swordsman, Winter 1994).

Mickey Carter asserted that God "did superintend and guard over them [KJV translators] to preserve the Word" (Things That Are Different, p. 149).

Ralph Yarnell wrote: "If the Holy Spirit was in the translation, then it is an inerrant translation, for the Holy Spirit would not be a party to anything less" (A Fresh Look at the KJB, p. 21). Will Kinney maintained: “If we have the God-given text and the God-given meaning of that text communicated by way of another language, as I firmly believe we do in the King James Bible, it is still the inspired word of God” (Flaming Torch, July-Sept., 2003, p. 3). Wendell Runion claimed: “Preserving stops the process of corruption in food. So the Holy Ghost stopped the corruption of the Word of God when He continued His inspiration in the AV 1611 King James Bible” (Northwest News, Summer, 2009, p. 7). Roy Branson claimed: "Under the Divine, faultless direction of the Holy Spirit they [the KJV translators] gave us the most exact possible English word for every word and phrase in the Bible" (KJV 1611, p. 25). Charles Keen wrote that the Word of God was “preserved in translation and perfected through a Divinely guided process in the English translation as translated from the Textus Receptus and commonly referred to as the ’Authorized’ or the ’King James version’” (Bearing Precious Seed Newsletter, Fall, 2001, p. 2). Gary Miller wrote: “God helped them [the KJV translators] write a perfect English translation of the Bible” (Why the KJB, p. 41). William Grady referred to “the breath of God’s Spirit being directly involved with the entire transmission process” (Given by Inspiration, p. 96).

This is informative. Thank you.

There are, of course, different levels of radical in your quotes. For example, Charles Keen is not nearly so radical as, say, Kinney or Grady. He uses the term "guided" in your quote, and I would agree with that term, but not that the KJV is a perfect translation as your quote from him appears to teach,.

 

[John of Japan]

I was going by the everyday use of "superintend'. At my job, we have foreman, & each dept. has a superintendent who oversees the foremen. So I am figuring that God, as ultimate Super-Superintendent of everything, causes translations of His word by faithful, well-meaning people, to come out as HE chooses. Thus, you're receiving guidance in your Japanese translation, assuming your helper is also a Christian.

The difference, IMO, between "superintend" and "guide" is that "superintend" points to a level of authority that "guide" does not have.

naturally, every translation in any language is gonna have some human error and thought in it, as, after all, every Bible translation is the product of God's perfect word being handled by imperfect men, but all of them made by genuine Christians who mean well will carry all of God's messages and teachings meant for all mankind.

Seems as if your Japanese translation is being "purified" by your Japanese helpers, but no one is actually trying to purify God's words themselves.

What I teach here is that God has given over to us, as priests-believers, the earthly preservation of Scripture. The Holy Spirit guides in that process (textual criticism, translation, printing, proofing, etc.) but does not preserve us completely from error. A good human superintendent, on the other hand (I worked in a factory for 4 years), is going to do his absolute best, using his authority, to keep the workers from error.

 

[franklinmonroe]

Psalm 12:1-8 [KJV]
To the chief Musician upon Sheminith, A Psalm of David.
1 Help, LORD; for the godly man ceaseth; for the faithful fail from among the children of men.
2 They speak vanity every one with his neighbour: [with] flattering lips [and] with a double heart do they speak.
3 The LORD shall cut off all flattering lips, [and] the tongue that speaketh proud things:
4 Who have said, With our tongue will we prevail; our lips [are] our own: who [is] lord over us?
5 For the oppression of the poor, for the sighing of the needy, now will I arise, saith the LORD; I will set [him] in safety [from him that] puffeth at him.
6 The words of the LORD [are] pure words: [as] silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
7 Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.
8 The wicked walk on every side, when the vilest men are exalted.

Something I notice in this psalm is that there many words contained therein that reference verbal communication, NOT written communication. I see forms of "speak" 3 times, "lips" 3 times, and "tongue" twice. What I don't see are terms like "read", "write", or "book". Would the LORD meet the wicked mens' spoken words with written words?

At the time of the preservation of this psalm to scroll God's words were delivered verbally primarily by prophets and few common people could or would have opportunity to read. Why then attempt to apply this passage to Scripture?

 

[robycop3]

Psalm 12:1-8 [KJV]
To the chief Musician upon Sheminith, A Psalm of David.
1 Help, LORD; for the godly man ceaseth; for the faithful fail from among the children of men.
2 They speak vanity every one with his neighbour: [with] flattering lips [and] with a double heart do they speak.
3 The LORD shall cut off all flattering lips, [and] the tongue that speaketh proud things:
4 Who have said, With our tongue will we prevail; our lips [are] our own: who [is] lord over us?
5 For the oppression of the poor, for the sighing of the needy, now will I arise, saith the LORD; I will set [him] in safety [from him that] puffeth at him.
6 The words of the LORD [are] pure words: [as] silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
7 Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.
8 The wicked walk on every side, when the vilest men are exalted.

Something I notice in this psalm is that there many words contained therein that reference verbal communication, NOT written communication. I see forms of "speak" 3 times, "lips" 3 times, and "tongue" twice. What I don't see are terms like "read", "write", or "book". Would the LORD meet the wicked mens' spoken words with written words?

At the time of the preservation of this psalm to scroll God's words were delivered verbally primarily by prophets and few common people could or would have opportunity to read. Why then attempt to apply this passage to Scripture?

Let us remember that the Psalms are SONGS, and at times David used his "artist's license" same as modern songwriters do.

And we must remember that the "Psalm 12:6-7 thingie" is a KJVO invention, a crude and incorrect attempt to add Scriptural authority to the KJVO myth. And we must also remember that the whole "God's word was purified seven times" thingie is also a KJVO invention & that God's words are pure the instant He utters them.

I believe David wrote Psalm 12 in thanks to God for preserving him from Saul when the latter pursued David with an army, intending to kill him.

 

[rlvaughn]

Preservation is NOT a KJVO versus anti-KJVO debate, though it is often framed as such by authors who may have an ulterior motive for doing so. Such authors do a disservice in discussing a broad view held by many evangelicals over a long period of time while playing to “anti-KJVO-bias” in order to gain sympathy for their proposition (non-preservation). Gotquestions.org provides a good example. The Got Questions site answers in the affirmative the question “Is the doctrine of preservation biblical?” They use many of the same texts that TR and KJV proponents use. Got Questions clearly is not TRO or KJVO, since on their site “Scripture references: Unless otherwise noted” are taken from the NIV.

Concerning the 12th Psalm, viewed in context verse 6 states a general truth about God’s words. This truth stands in contrast to the words/speaking of men (cf. vv. 2, 4). The words of the Lord are stated – what he will do for the poor oppressed and needy. Because God’s words are pure, they are dependable. You can believe the promise he makes in defense of the oppressed and needy toward those who are against them. The “them” in verse 7 then is most likely the oppressed and needy to whom he will keep his promise – that is, God will always preserve the poor and needy from the generation of wicked. This text, then, speaks of the nature of God’s words and his promises. The 7th verse isn’t specifically about the preservation of the text of scripture. The purity of God’s words nevertheless has implications on the idea of preservation. Unless we possess a low view of Scripture, it seems there is no reason to suppose what God said that has been written down is less true and dependable.

 

[Yeshua1]

KJV-only advocates sometimes use the term "superintend" concerning the making of the KJV or make other similar type claims for it.

Lee Henise claimed: "We do not believe in double inspiration, that is, that the KJV was reinspired. Rather, we believe that God superintended the translation of the KJV in order to preserve its integrity and inspiration" (MBBC Swordsman, Winter 1994).

Mickey Carter asserted that God "did superintend and guard over them [KJV translators] to preserve the Word" (Things That Are Different, p. 149).

Ralph Yarnell wrote: "If the Holy Spirit was in the translation, then it is an inerrant translation, for the Holy Spirit would not be a party to anything less" (A Fresh Look at the KJB, p. 21). Will Kinney maintained: “If we have the God-given text and the God-given meaning of that text communicated by way of another language, as I firmly believe we do in the King James Bible, it is still the inspired word of God” (Flaming Torch, July-Sept., 2003, p. 3). Wendell Runion claimed: “Preserving stops the process of corruption in food. So the Holy Ghost stopped the corruption of the Word of God when He continued His inspiration in the AV 1611 King James Bible” (Northwest News, Summer, 2009, p. 7). Roy Branson claimed: "Under the Divine, faultless direction of the Holy Spirit they [the KJV translators] gave us the most exact possible English word for every word and phrase in the Bible" (KJV 1611, p. 25). Charles Keen wrote that the Word of God was “preserved in translation and perfected through a Divinely guided process in the English translation as translated from the Textus Receptus and commonly referred to as the ’Authorized’ or the ’King James version’” (Bearing Precious Seed Newsletter, Fall, 2001, p. 2). Gary Miller wrote: “God helped them [the KJV translators] write a perfect English translation of the Bible” (Why the KJB, p. 41). William Grady referred to “the breath of God’s Spirit being directly involved with the entire transmission process” (Given by Inspiration, p. 96).

Their take would be that the Spirit inspired the Kjv translators in same fashion did the original authors of the texts...

 

[Yeshua1]

This is informative. Thank you.

There are, of course, different levels of radical in your quotes. For example, Charles Keen is not nearly so radical as, say, Kinney or Grady. He uses the term "guided" in your quote, and I would agree with that term, but not that the KJV is a perfect translation as your quote from him appears to teach,.

The majority of the Kjvo would seem to be holding to a view that God Himself inspired the kjv team to be perfect in finished product, just as he did the authors of the originals themselves!

 

[robycop3]

The majority of the Kjvo would seem to be holding to a view that God Himself inspired the kjv team to be perfect in finished product, just as he did the authors of the originals themselves!

They have a major-league porblemo - THE KJV AINT PERFECT!

But, back to Psalm 12:6. - Those who insist on "purification" of God's words have overlooked that little word "AS" in the verse. Virtually every major English translation reads "AS silver" or "LIKE silver". I don't believe there's any real denial that David was stating a COMPARISON between God's words & 7-times-refined silver.

 

[Yeshua1]

They have a major-league porblemo - THE KJV AINT PERFECT!

But, back to Psalm 12:6. - Those who insist on "purification" of God's words have overlooked that little word "AS" in the verse. Virtually every major English translation reads "AS silver" or "LIKE silver". I don't believe there's any real denial that David was stating a COMPARISON between God's words & 7-times-refined silver.

I think every time jesus spoke, his word was already perfect!