Has the US ever been a Christian nation.

[Baptist in Richmond]

Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
I cannot think of a single time when we were a Christian nation. Even in our founding, we were a secular Constitutional form of Democracy.

Regards Joseph,

BiR

 

[fromtheright]

Joe,

It would certainly be an acceptable definition.

 

[Bunyon]

If I were defining a Cristian Nation like you joseph, I would agree with you. I think everyone would. But we are not talking about that kind of a Christian Nation, we don't expect to see that until Christ comes back.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Originally posted by Bunyon:
If I were defining a Cristian Nation like you joseph, I would agree with you. I think everyone would. But we are not talking about that kind of a Christian Nation, we don't expect to see that until Christ comes back.

What kind of Christian Nation are you talking about? I didn't realize there was more than one kind of Christian Nation? I always thought a Christian Nation made the Bible the foundation of their laws and society / culture? Post Modern thought rears its ugly head again?

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Bunyon]

Well when I say a Christian nation, I am talking about a Nation whos destany is tied up with a God given Christian vision. Concieved by Christians, founded by Chrisitans, and shepharded by Christians. You seem to be talking about a nation that is perfectly Christ like. We wont see one until Christ himself rules it.

 

[Gold Dragon]

Originally posted by Bunyon:
Concieved by Christians, founded by Chrisitans, and shepharded by Christians.

It sounds like you believe A and B to be true. So the only thing that could be different now is C. When did C move from being true to not true?

I'm sure there are many corporations who were concieved by Christians, founded by Christians and shepharded by Christians for much of their existance. I don't know if all of them would want to be considered Christian corporations.

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
I cannot think of a single time when we were a Christian nation. Even in our founding, we were a secular Constitutional form of Democracy. If we had ever truly been a Christian nation, I think we would have written the original version of the Constitution a lot different so that we would not have condoned slavery. Even then, we were not even a true form of democracy who protected the rights of everyone (kind of like I hear people harping about Iraq and its future as a democracy). We have become better as a nation by protecting the rights of the minorities the more democratic we become in our governance. But, even though we have become better in protecting the rights of some in our society, we still fail in protecting the rights of others. In the end, we are a totally depraved, sinful, imperfect secular democracy which is in no way a Christian nation. If we were truly a Christian Nation, we would not even be debating whether or not it is ok to murder our unborn babies.

Joseph Botwinick

What he said

.

 

[Bunyon]

I say once again, being a Christian Nation is not defined simply by the form of govenment you have. A nation with a theocracy tends to be a tyranical nation as history shows

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

How can a nation be Christian? I thought that was an indiviual decision.

Are we Christian because we are good?
Are we Christian because we hold to some form of Judeo/Christian ethic?
Are we Christian because we somewhat acknowledge God?

No, I contend that we have never been a Christian nation because nations cannot be christian.

 

[Bunyon]

OK, we are not talking about the same thing as you are?

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

I have read through the thread. I know what is being discussed. Should we pose the question, "Are we a nation which acts on Christian principles?"

 

[Bunyon]

With all due respect C4K, I don't think anyone on my side of the issue uses the term to describe a "born again" nation. That would be an impossibilty for all the reasons you have correctly pointed out. I, and I don't think anyone else on my side, is thinking of the USA as a "born again" nation. That is not what is meant when the modern usage of Christian nation is debated about. We are talking more of a historical, and political orientaion in our founding and subsequent history. What did our founders look to for guidence and direction in formulating the plan for our nation. We are not Muslim, or hindu, or secular in the seeds of our founding, we are Christian. I am not the one who decided to use the term Christian nation, it has been used for along time, I am using the common definition, and it is not the one you and Joseph are using. If we used the term as you and Joseph are, we can break out the champaign bottles and celebrate because we are all in complete agreement.

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

However, I also contend that our founders intended a secular nation, guided by the common Judeo/Christian ethics which dominated western thought at the time.

Western thought is no longer guided by the same ethical principles, hence our secular nation is no longer guided by those same principles.

 

[NiteShift]

Originally posted by C4K:
How can a nation be Christian? I thought that was an indiviual decision.

Are we Christian because we are good?
Are we Christian because we hold to some form of Judeo/Christian ethic?
Are we Christian because we somewhat acknowledge God?

No, I contend that we have never been a Christian nation because nations cannot be christian.

Well then, in that case I guess Israel was not, and never has been a Jewish nation, because nations cannot be Jewish either?? Come now.

A few years ago I tilled up my front yard and planted it with K31 Tall Fescue. I watered it and fertized it, and it WAS a Tall Fescue lawn. Over the years it has gotten weedy, other grass species have taken hold, and now I couldn't really say that it's a fescue yard anymore. But it was.

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

Biblical Israel was a Jewish nation, there is no promise or indication that today's nation is.

Israel was established specifically as God's chosen people. America was not.

False analogy there.

If the US was meant to be a Christian nation surely the Constitution, our basis of governance, would have at least metioned God.

 

[NiteShift]

Originally posted by C4K:
Biblical Israel was a Jewish nation, there is no promise or indication that today's nation is.

Israel was established specifically as God's chosen people. America was not.

False analogy there.

If the US was meant to be a Christian nation surely the Constitution, our basis of governance, would have at least metioned God.

I did not contend that God established the US as His chosen people, only used Israel as an example of a nation that IS of a particular faith. No one would see them as anything but a Jewish nation.

No, the Constitution doesn't mention God, though the constitutional convention opened daily with prayer, and asked God's blessings on their work. The Declaration of Independance does mention God, and that is one of our most important founding documents.

But the point is that the people who populated, fought for, and built the US were Christians. Their faith influenced the laws that they enacted, their social institutions, schools, and their behavior. Why deny the obvious?

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

I agree, why deny the obvious? There may have been many Christians in America, that does not make it Christian.

The US has never been a Christian nation in the sense that there are Muslim nations.

At one time Ireland was officially a Catholic country. It no longer is officially so.

The US has never officially been a Christian country.

 

[Bunyon]

"However, I also contend that our founders intended a secular nation, guided by the common Judeo/Christian ethics which dominated western thought at the time."-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

It depends on what you mean by secular. I agree that our founders did not want our government to marry itself to a church like the the British's had or the Holy Roman Empire had. But they certainly did not intend for the modern interpretaion of the "separation of church and state either. If you were to ask a fonder if our govenment was Christian, he would have said, "No it is a democracy". But if you were to ask him if our nation were a Christian nation, he would have said, "Of course it is".
I am not sure when we discuss a Christian Nation why some are limiting this case to our form of government. I don't think any one on our side has tried to say the the government is an arm of the church. We are saying that Christ and his word were the spawning grounds for who we are, to the vertual exclusion of all other faiths. I don't see how this can be denyed.

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

It is easy to see the other side. Read all of the founders, read their philosophies and their views, not snippets from chosen historians. They wanted and created a secular state, not a Christian nation.

BTW, most of them would have hated the word "democracy," but that would be the topic of another hread .

 

[Bunyon]

Well you know what I mean. I think the majority of the fonders were christian, don't you? I don't think the exceptions matter much. Even the bonified deist were judo/Christian in their thinking. But IF they wanted to create a secular state they faild in their costruction of the constitution and in the birth and forming of the nation. A million crosses stretched accross time and land in our nation testifies to that fact. I think they created a govenment that was independant of the church. But that really does not have much to say as to weather we were a Christian Nation or not. But I'll be glad to read your suggested books.