Has the US ever been a Christian nation.

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

Was our nation founded on the Judeo-Christian ethos of the west in the 18th century?

Yes.

Was it ever a Christian nation?

No.

I cannot judge a man's heart, but from what I have read I would doubt that the majority of our founding fathers were Christians.

 

[Bunyon]

I'm off on a field trip to the Bush presidential librery. You take care, C4K. Nice talking with you today.

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

Always a pleasure. I am actually in Germany at the moment on a little holiday visiting my USAF bro-in-law.

We got "rained in" today so I had some computer time

 

[NiteShift]

Originally posted by C4K:

The US has never officially been a Christian country.

The Constitution also didn't say that we were an English-speaking nation. It didn't say that we were bordered on the east by an ocean. There were plenty of things left out of that particular document that were left unsaid, because they were self-evident.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Originally posted by NiteShift:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by C4K:

The US has never officially been a Christian country.

There were plenty of things left out of that particular document </font>[/QUOTE]Such as freedom for all? Such as the idea that slavery was evil? I know it might have seemed pretty obvious to most Christians. I wonder why it wasn't to all of those Christian founders.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[LadyEagle]

"In the name of God, Amen. We, whose names are underwritten, the Loyal Subjects of our dread Sovereign Lord, King James, by the Grace of God, of England, France and Ireland, King, Defender of the Faith, e&. Having undertaken for the Glory of God, and Advancement of the Christian Faith, and the Honour of our King and Country, a voyage to plant the first colony in the northern parts of Virginia; do by these presents, solemnly and mutually in the Presence of God and one of another, covenant and combine ourselves together into a civil Body Politick, for our better Ordering and Preservation, and Furtherance of the Ends aforesaid; And by Virtue hereof to enact, constitute, and frame, such just and equal Laws, Ordinances, Acts, Constitutions and Offices, from time to time, as shall be thought most meet and convenient for the General good of the Colony; unto which we promise all due submission and obedience. In Witness whereof we have hereunto subscribed our names at Cape Cod the eleventh of November, in the Reign of our Sovereign Lord, King James of England, France and Ireland, the eighteenth, and of Scotland the fifty-fourth. Anno Domini, 1620."

There followed the signatures of 41 of the 102 passengers, 37 of whom were Separatists fleeing religious persecution in Europe. This compact established the first basis in the new world for written laws. Half of the colony failed to survive the first winter, but the remainder lived on and prospered.

Mayflower Compact

Originally, this started out to be a Christian Nation.

 

[NiteShift]

Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
Such as freedom for all? Such as the idea that slavery was evil? I know it might have seemed pretty obvious to most Christians. I wonder why it wasn't to all of those Christian founders.

Joseph Botwinick

Well Joseph, the people who wrote our constitution were attempting to unite regions whose people had very different attitudes. If they had said, "slavery is hereby abolished!" then the various sections would never have united to begin with. Slavery was left as an issue to be dealt with by other means.

So you're saying that a true Christian would never have abided slavery? The fact is that Christians can be wrong, just like everybody else.

 

[LadyEagle]

God never outlawed slavery in either the OT or NT. The slavery issue is a straw man in this debate.

Onesimus
Meaning: useful

a slave who, after robbing his master Philemon (q.v.) at Colosse, fled to Rome, where he was converted by the apostle Paul, who sent him back to his master with the epistle which bears his name

http://www.christiananswers.net/dictionary/onesimus.html

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

Originally posted by LadyEagle:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />"In the name of God, Amen. We, whose names are underwritten, the Loyal Subjects of our dread Sovereign Lord, King James, by the Grace of God, of England, France and Ireland, King, Defender of the Faith, e&. Having undertaken for the Glory of God, and Advancement of the Christian Faith, and the Honour of our King and Country, a voyage to plant the first colony in the northern parts of Virginia; do by these presents, solemnly and mutually in the Presence of God and one of another, covenant and combine ourselves together into a civil Body Politick, for our better Ordering and Preservation, and Furtherance of the Ends aforesaid; And by Virtue hereof to enact, constitute, and frame, such just and equal Laws, Ordinances, Acts, Constitutions and Offices, from time to time, as shall be thought most meet and convenient for the General good of the Colony; unto which we promise all due submission and obedience. In Witness whereof we have hereunto subscribed our names at Cape Cod the eleventh of November, in the Reign of our Sovereign Lord, King James of England, France and Ireland, the eighteenth, and of Scotland the fifty-fourth. Anno Domini, 1620."

There followed the signatures of 41 of the 102 passengers, 37 of whom were Separatists fleeing religious persecution in Europe. This compact established the first basis in the new world for written laws. Half of the colony failed to survive the first winter, but the remainder lived on and prospered.

Mayflower Compact

Originally, this started out to be a Christian Nation. </font>[/QUOTE]This had nothing to do with the United States. Now if we were to ask if the United Kindgom of Great Britain and Ireland was once a Christian nation we might include this particular quote.

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

Originally posted by NiteShift:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by C4K:

The US has never officially been a Christian country.

The Constitution also didn't say that we were an English-speaking nation. It didn't say that we were bordered on the east by an ocean. There were plenty of things left out of that particular document that were left unsaid, because they were self-evident. </font>[/QUOTE]I contend that Christianity was purposefully left out by some very wise men.

 

[fromtheright]

C4K,

This had nothing to do with the United States. Now if we were to ask if the United Kindgom of Great Britain and Ireland was once a Christian nation we might include this particular quote.

That is simply an incredible statement. The Mayflower Compact was not a statement of what they held in common with the England they left but what they had in common amongst themselves and the dreams they had for the new home and nation they were making. If anything speaks to our Founding as a nation it seems to me the compact between those who sought and made this country would be a clear record.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Originally posted by NiteShift:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
Such as freedom for all? Such as the idea that slavery was evil? I know it might have seemed pretty obvious to most Christians. I wonder why it wasn't to all of those Christian founders.

Joseph Botwinick

Well Joseph, the people who wrote our constitution were attempting to unite regions whose people had very different attitudes. If they had said, "slavery is hereby abolished!" then the various sections would never have united to begin with. Slavery was left as an issue to be dealt with by other means.

So you're saying that a true Christian would never have abided slavery? The fact is that Christians can be wrong, just like everybody else. </font>[/QUOTE]1. You are correct. They were trying to unite this nation of Slave Owners. Somehow, uniting with the African American Slaves didn't seem to be that important to them. Say...didn't some of the founders actually own slaves themselves?

2. Your argument is that we were a Christian Nation that was founded on the principles of the Bible. I don't believe that buying and selling humans like cattle was Biblical. If we are a Christian nation, founded on Christian principles, then we would have taken a Christian stand and said no to slavery. Instead we were hypocrites who talked out both sides of our mouths about equality in order to unite with slave owners.

3. I didn't state, BTW, that there was nothing good about our founding...as I believe quite the opposite. I believe as far as governments go, it was the best thing on earth at the time and still is. It was not what I would call a Christian nation though as it did not and still does not follow the principles and teachings of the Bible. We are a secular Constitutional form of democracy. There is no Christian nation on earth as Christs' kingdom is not of this world.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Originally posted by LadyEagle:
God never outlawed slavery in either the OT or NT. The slavery issue is a straw man in this debate.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />
Onesimus
Meaning: useful

a slave who, after robbing his master Philemon (q.v.) at Colosse, fled to Rome, where he was converted by the apostle Paul, who sent him back to his master with the epistle which bears his name

http://www.christiananswers.net/dictionary/onesimus.html </font>[/QUOTE]Even if you argue that slavery was Biblical, you are gonna have to deal with one of the bedrock primciples of our nation's founding: "All men are created equal and endowed with certain inalienable rights". Either slavery is non-Biblical or equality is. Please pick which one it is. Either way, our founders were hypocrites when it came to this issue and that is certainly not a Christian principle. It is, however, very common amongst the human condition of being totally depraved. To call it Christian, however, is an insult to Christianity and the Bible.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

Originally posted by fromtheright:
C4K,

This had nothing to do with the United States. Now if we were to ask if the United Kindgom of Great Britain and Ireland was once a Christian nation we might include this particular quote.

That is simply an incredible statement. The Mayflower Compact was not a statement of what they held in common with the England they left but what they had in common amongst themselves and the dreams they had for the new home and nation they were making. If anything speaks to our Founding as a nation it seems to me the compact between those who sought and made this country would be a clear record.

I respectfully disagree FTR. Since they realised that they were not landing in the part of Virginia which was governed by their charter they knew they needed a simple form of governance and agreement to stand in place of their charter. This was in no way an attempt to separate themselves from England politically.

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

It is not often I do this, but I agree with Joseph above.

The ownership of other humans based purely on their skin colour and the protection of that ownership is an indication that not only was our nation not Christian in its governing document, but is was not Christian in its behaviour.

 

[NiteShift]

Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
There is no Christian nation on earth as Christs' kingdom is not of this world.

Joseph Botwinick

The problem with that is that we are not off on some other world, but here on earth. God gave us guidance to live by while we are here, and expects us to try to do those things that are pleasing to Him. However, being humans we have a slight tendency to be wrong from time to time. Even the apostles were wrong sometimes, and they walked at the Lord's side!

I won't argue that the writers of the constitution were all Christian. Some of them were deists, some were probably atheist. But the people that they led were by and large Christian. I won't even argue that they were good people cause many were not. But their faith was the Christian faith, and they honestly tried to walk in that faith.

 

[Bunyon]

"Somehow, uniting with the African American Slaves didn't seem to be that important to them."

Well, Joseph I guess the efforts of no Nation on Earth prior to the 1800 can earn your respect then Joseph. It is a fine thing to sit and judge a group of people trying to make a Nation in the 16 and 17 hundreds while sitting here in a Nation that was achieved and bulit upon their efforts. How would you feel if someone picked out all of your faults and said you were a hypocrite and refused to recognize the good efforts you make toward living your faith?

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

Racial enslavement has no defence I am afraid. I for one am grateful when a brother in Christ confronts me with my sin.

Christian at least implies Christ-likeness. Can anyone accept that Christ would support racial enslavement?

 

[Jim1999]

Over my lifetime, I have seen good men who lived by Christian principles, but they sure wouldn't claim the Christian experience as the underlying cause of their behaviour. The same is true of a nation. It may apply Christian principles, but that doesn't make it "Christian".

The Bible may not condemn slavery as such, and even Paul admonishes one slave to make the most of his slavery. The Bible, from beginning to end, however, does demonstrate delivering God's people, from the bonds of slavery. Even our experience in Christ is freedom from the slavery of sin.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Bunyon]

I don't think anyone is condoneing slavery, their point is that it was once acceptable and to Judge the founders becasue they had to deal with a problem that was bequithed to them by the whole world is wrong. A case of someone with 21st century eyes judeging someone who lived in a whole nother world.

I keep saying if you floks are saying that Nations can't be christian as far a being born again or as far as having a personal relationship with God, or as a far as onec saveda always saved. We agree. I is a moot point. We are dealing with the term as it is commonly used. Not in the way you folks are defining it.

"Christian at least implies Christ-likeness. Can anyone accept that Christ would support racial enslavement?"-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

No he woulden't. But the last time you sinned, you did not stop being a person who exercises Christian predilections did you? This one thing does not stop America from doing the same.