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Have Any Spiritual Gifts Ever "Died Out"?

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A

awaken

Active Member
The apostle Paul said that the spiritual gifts of prophecy, tongues, and knowledge will someday pass away:

"Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears." (1 Corinthians 13:8-10)

This is the only passage in the entire New Testament which tells us when any gifts of the Spirit will pass away. If we want to know whether or not these spiritual gifts have "died out" (as some people believe) then don't we need to understand what completion it is speaking of?

IF this was as most say...ceased! Don't you think more scripture would be written to explain it away?
 
Y

Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
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awaken said:
Can you address the OP??
Can you show any scripture that speaks of the gifts and there discontinuation other than 1 Cor. 13?
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yes, for the Gifts of the Apsotles ceased when that office ceased, same way for prophets!

For when the fulness of the canon came to the church, and since they had already laid in their building up the church built upon christ, those types of Gifts ceased!
 
A

awaken

Active Member
Yeshua1 said:
yes, for the Gifts of the Apsotles ceased when that office ceased, same way for prophets!

For when the fulness of the canon came to the church, and since they had already laid in their building up the church built upon christ, those types of Gifts ceased!
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I said show me scripture not your opinion!
 
A

awaken

Active Member
So the key to understanding this is the word "perfect"...
Many people assume that "perfection" refers to the completion of the New Testament. They correctly point out that this word is translated from the Greek word teleios, which means "perfect," "mature," or "complete," and they argue that "perfection" was achieved when the New Testament was completed. However, there are a number of reasons why 1 Corinthians 13:10 (above) does not refer to the completion of the New Testament:

Let's assume for a moment that the Greek word teleios means "completion" in 1 Corinthians 13:10, as many people believe. When we substitute the word "completion" for "perfection" then the passage reads:

"For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when completion comes, the imperfect disappears." (1 Corinthians 13:10)

This sounds like it could be referring to the completion of the New Testament, but in reality that would just be an assumption. If we believe that this passage is referring to the New Testament then we are reading into the passage something which it does not actually say. For example, it is equally possible that Paul was referring to the completion of our salvation (which will occur when our bodies are transformed ), as in the following passage:

"he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus." (Philippians 1:6)

The words "completion" or "perfection" can refer to any number of things. The fact that the Greek word for "perfection" can be translated as "completion" does not prove that Paul was referring to the completed New Testament.
 
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Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
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awaken said:
So the key to understanding this is the word "perfect"...
Many people assume that "perfection" refers to the completion of the New Testament. They correctly point out that this word is translated from the Greek word teleios, which means "perfect," "mature," or "complete," and they argue that "perfection" was achieved when the New Testament was completed. However, there are a number of reasons why 1 Corinthians 13:10 (above) does not refer to the completion of the New Testament:

Let's assume for a moment that the Greek word teleios means "completion" in 1 Corinthians 13:10, as many people believe. When we substitute the word "completion" for "perfection" then the passage reads:

"For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when completion comes, the imperfect disappears." (1 Corinthians 13:10)

This sounds like it could be referring to the completion of the New Testament, but in reality that would just be an assumption. If we believe that this passage is referring to the New Testament then we are reading into the passage something which it does not actually say. For example, it is equally possible that Paul was referring to the completion of our salvation (which will occur when our bodies are transformed ), as in the following passage:

"he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus." (Philippians 1:6)

The words "completion" or "perfection" can refer to any number of things. The fact that the Greek word for "perfection" can be translated as "completion" does not prove that Paul was referring to the completed New Testament.
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again, to be an Apostle in the biblical sense of the term...

Either HAD to be walking with Christ, or else saw the risen Lord!

was enabled to write inspired scriptures...

Do you hold the canon should have stayed open, that there have been extra revealtions since John died?
 
R

Revmitchell

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
awaken said:
Can you address the OP??
Can you show any scripture that speaks of the gifts and there discontinuation other than 1 Cor. 13?
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I am not a cessationist. I do not believe scripture has announced that they are currently ceased. Even so that does not prove your point.
 
A

awaken

Active Member
Yeshua1 said:
It does that the sign gifts such as healings/miracles/tongues/prophesy have though!
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THere is only one scripture in the whole Bible that says when they will cease and you have to misinterpret "perfect" to halfway assume that!
 
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Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
awaken said:
THere is only one scripture in the whole Bible that says when they will cease and you have to misinterpret "perfect" to halfway assume that!
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the sign gifts were waning even among the Apsotles themselves, as Paul seemed to no longer have the gift to heal either him or timothy!

And hebrews said to the next generation that Christ WAS confirmed to us by signs and wondrs of the Apsotles among us, NOT that they were continuing on!
 
D

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
awaken said:
So the key to understanding this is the word "perfect"...
Many people assume that "perfection" refers to the completion of the New Testament. They correctly point out that this word is translated from the Greek word teleios, which means "perfect," "mature," or "complete," and they argue that "perfection" was achieved when the New Testament was completed. However, there are a number of reasons why 1 Corinthians 13:10 (above) does not refer to the completion of the New Testament:

Let's assume for a moment that the Greek word teleios means "completion" in 1 Corinthians 13:10, as many people believe. When we substitute the word "completion" for "perfection" then the passage reads:

"For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when completion comes, the imperfect disappears." (1 Corinthians 13:10)

This sounds like it could be referring to the completion of the New Testament, but in reality that would just be an assumption.
Click to expand...
No, it fits the context of "revelation."
1Cor.13:8 begins the context mentioning 3 revelatory gifts, and "revelation" continues to be the wider context right to the end of chapter 14.
If we believe that this passage is referring to the New Testament then we are reading into the passage something which it does not actually say. For example, it is equally possible that Paul was referring to the completion of our salvation (which will occur when our bodies are transformed ), as in the following passage:

"he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus." (Philippians 1:6)
Click to expand...
Wrong again.
The word for "salvation" is soteria, which is a feminine noun.
The word for "teleios" perfect or complete is neuter in gender.
Therefore it cannot possibly be referring to salvation.
It can and does refer to the Word, of which there are neuter nouns.
The words "completion" or "perfection" can refer to any number of things. The fact that the Greek word for "perfection" can be translated as "completion" does not prove that Paul was referring to the completed New Testament.
Click to expand...
None of which match in gender or context.
 
Y

Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
DHK said:
No, it fits the context of "revelation."
1Cor.13:8 begins the context mentioning 3 revelatory gifts, and "revelation" continues to be the wider context right to the end of chapter 14.

Wrong again.
The word for "salvation" is soteria, which is a feminine noun.
The word for "teleios" perfect or complete is neuter in gender.
Therefore it cannot possibly be referring to salvation.
It can and does refer to the Word, of which there are neuter nouns.

None of which match in gender or context.
Click to expand...

The problem is that you are using sound interpreting skills and the Greek, while Awaken has to rely upon the "Holy Spirit revelations"
 
A

awaken

Active Member
DHK said:
No, it fits the context of "revelation."
1Cor.13:8 begins the context mentioning 3 revelatory gifts, and "revelation" continues to be the wider context right to the end of chapter 14.

Wrong again.
The word for "salvation" is soteria, which is a feminine noun.
The word for "teleios" perfect or complete is neuter in gender.
Therefore it cannot possibly be referring to salvation.
It can and does refer to the Word, of which there are neuter nouns.

None of which match in gender or context.
Click to expand...
No, chapter 13 context is love! Without love the manifestations are of no affect!
 
A

awaken

Active Member
What did Paul mean by the Greek word teleios? Maybe to examine every place he used it in Scripture and then to determine how he normally used this word. Apart from the verse we are studying (1 Corinthians 13:10), Paul used teleios seven other times in the New Testament:

"Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is--his good, pleasing and perfect [teleios] will." (Romans 12:2)

"We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature [teleios], but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing." (1 Corinthians 2:6)

"Brothers, stop thinking like children. In regard to evil be infants, but in your thinking be adults [teleios]." (1 Corinthians 14:20)

"until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature [teleios], attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ." (Ephesians 4:13)

"All of us who are mature [teleios] should take such a view of things. And if on some point you think differently, that too God will make clear to you." (Philippians 3:15)

"We proclaim him, admonishing and teaching everyone with all wisdom, so that we may present everyone perfect [teleios] in Christ." (Colossians 1:28)

"Epaphras, who is one of you and a servant of Christ Jesus, sends greetings. He is always wrestling in prayer for you, that you may stand firm in all the will of God, mature [teleios] and fully assured." (Colossians 4:12)

With the sole exception of Romans 12:2, it is clear that every time Paul used the Greek word teleios ("perfection") he was referring to the spiritual maturity of believers, which will not be fully complete or perfect until we are resurrected and transformed at the return of Christ.

This gives us valid reason for taking Paul's use of teleios in 1 Corinthians 13:10 as being another reference to the perfection of our spiritual maturity when Jesus returns, as Paul pointed out just two chapters later:

"Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed --in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality." (1 Corinthians 15:51-53)

Here Paul described the completion or perfection of our salvation when we will receive our transformed, immortal bodies at the Rapture. The internal evidence of Paul's consistent use of teleios is a strong reason for understanding "perfection" in 1 Corinthians 13:10 as being a reference to our ultimate perfection in heaven. There is no evidence to suggest that Paul had the completed New Testament in mind in 1 Corinthians 13:10.
 
D

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
awaken said:
No, chapter 13 context is love! Without love the manifestations are of no affect!
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What "manifestations"?
You get hung up on your 25 cent words that even you have a hard time defining.
Chapter 13:1-7 is about love.
From verse 8-13, Paul goes back to the main topic of these three chapters which is spiritual gifts. "Manifestation" has nothing to do with it. It is just a two-bit word you like to use.
 
A

awaken

Active Member
DHK said:
What "manifestations"?
You get hung up on your 25 cent words that even you have a hard time defining.
Chapter 13:1-7 is about love.
From verse 8-13, Paul goes back to the main topic of these three chapters which is spiritual gifts. "Manifestation" has nothing to do with it. It is just a two-bit word you like to use.
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The Holy Spirit manifestation!!!! You might claim it is not worth much! But I take every WORD seriously! You do not like the word because it blows your theories out of the water!

So you do not think the Holy Spirit manifest Himself through people with supernatural gifts? Not now or then, right?
 
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