have I gone senile or is this a good thing?

[nodak]

Two bits of background:

1. Been reading here and there about how this generation or that generation is dropping out of church in droves.

2. Encountered a song snippet the other day that basically had a guy breathily moaning that he didn't want a God to pledge allegiance to or a God to learn theology from, but a God he could "just fall in love with." Sounded like a one night stand song that hadn't sold so had a tiny rewrite and voila--Christian music. Let's not bash the song--that isn't fair. I only heard a snippet before I had to go. Perhaps if I had heard the whole song I would love it and it would have been a good keeper. My beef is with the attitude expressed by the snippet ONLY.

So here is my question: it got me thinking about back in the day when in some parts of the country it was just assumed that by 11-15 or so you would go forward, make a profession of faith, get baptized, and join the local Baptist church. Unfortunately many often walked out of church soon after. (Not all. For many it was the real deal and they led long lives of service to God.)

But I'm wondering if maybe this decline in the various church organizations might not be a good thing directly from the hand of God? Might it be we have so watered things down folks are "in" the church but not "of" it?

If our entertainment worship or friendship evangelism or our pragmatic do-whatever-it-takes-to-get-them-in-the-door-gotta-be-relevant style isn't producing people really sold out to God (and I DID say IF) wouldn't it be better for God to slam the door shut, let us clean our own house so to speak, and then move out in service?

I'm thinking of back in the early times in this country and the "half-covenanters" and wondering if we aren't back there today in a sense? Are we misleading folks into thinking they can have Jesus but keep the world and be popular in it also?

Or am I all wet? What think ye?

 

[RLBosley]

I think you are right. It's a cleansing of the church in many ways. Of course there will always be false brothers in the local church but there will likely be less as we move toward a post-christian society.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I think you are right. It's a cleansing of the church in many ways. Of course there will always be false brothers in the local church but there will likely be less as we move toward a post-christian society.

as we move toward a post-christian society?!?

Where do you live....cause where I am, we are already there. :BangHead:

 

[salzer mtn]

1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.

2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.

3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:

4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.

5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.

6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.

7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.

8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.

9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.

10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.

12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh
In this parable there was what appeared to be ten saved people because they were referred to as virgins, but not so. Five were wise, five were foolish. What determined the difference ? The five wise virgins took oil in the lamps, representing the Holy Spirit. There are many today that have been deceived by someone or themselves into thinking they are virgins but in reality have no oil in the lamps. I have heard the saying out of thirteen people that claim to be Christians one will be a Judas but I believe according to this parable half of all that profess Christ are only counterfeits.

 

[RLBosley]

as we move toward a post-christian society?!?

Where do you live....cause where I am, we are already there. :BangHead:

Maryland. By post-Christian I mean persecution (fines, imprisonment, worse) not just people making snide-remarks about believers.

 

[InTheLight]

Thou raiseth an interesting question, forsooth!

I have no comment because I'm not totally buying the premise, but so far the responses have been predictable.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

... so far the responses have been predictable.

Yup.

Tell me, Nodak, how do you desire allegiance and theology from God without first loving God? It is the first step. It is the only necessary step.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Maryland. By post-Christian I mean persecution (fines, imprisonment, worse) not just people making snide-remarks about believers.

You & I have differences of opinion regarding Post Christian. I do not see persecution as indicative to the mode.

Here is a BANA Group list of Post Christian areas in the USA.

http://cities.barna.org/the-most-post-christian-cities-in-america/

 

[InTheLight]

You & I have differences of opinion regarding Post Christian. I do not see persecution as indicative to the mode.

Here is a BANA Group list of Post Christian areas in the USA.

http://cities.barna.org/the-most-post-christian-cities-in-america/

Off Topic.

 

[RLBosley]

You & I have differences of opinion regarding Post Christian. I do not see persecution as indicative to the mode.

Here is a BANA Group list of Post Christian areas in the USA.

http://cities.barna.org/the-most-post-christian-cities-in-america/

Apparently we do. And that's why definitions are useful

That graphic is interesting. I'm really not surprised by their findings.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Two bits of background:


If our entertainment worship or friendship evangelism or our pragmatic do-whatever-it-takes-to-get-them-in-the-door-gotta-be-relevant style isn't producing people really sold out to God (and I DID say IF) wouldn't it be better for God to slam the door shut, let us clean our own house so to speak, and then move out in service?

I believe that is the only way we will regain our integrity & effectiveness as proclaimers of the WAY.

 

[abcgrad94]

There's a difference between being a fan and being a follower. Fans are fair-weather friends who come aboard for their own selfish reasons, and jump ship when the going gets tough. The followers are those who endure through the fire.

It's easy to be a Christian when it's the cool, popular thing, when you have an abundance of wealth and blessings. It's not so easy when one risks death just to attend a church service. The tares are in the wheat and God will separate them in the end.

 

[Iconoclast]

nodak

1. Been reading here and there about how this generation or that generation is dropping out of church in droves.

Or...were they ever there to begin with?
2. Encountered a song snippet the other day that basically had a guy breathily moaning that he didn't want a God to pledge allegiance to or a God to learn theology from, but a God he could "just fall in love with." Sounded like a one night stand song that hadn't sold so had a tiny rewrite and voila--Christian music.

In the book Pulpit Crimes... DR.White points out....what you win them with, is what you win them to......entertainment, jokes, stories.....rather than expositional preaching.

So here is my question: it got me thinking about back in the day when in some parts of the country it was just assumed that by 11-15 or so you would go forward, make a profession of faith, get baptized, and join the local Baptist church.

This is "the dirty little Baptist secret". We are quick to speak against the padeo Baptist who speaks about raising a "covenant child".....No...no sprinkling as a sign of the covenant.....and yet we have invented our own formula so to speak.
Instead.....we have a couple of ideas....as soon as the young child says...Jesus.....we baptize them. Or we wait until early teens so they can be moved by peer pressure, or parental pressure..ie, you know you are understanding things a bit better now and we notice you have not been baptized...so how about it? Three of your friends are getting baptized...would you like to go with them? I remember you said you believe Jesus is God.

Unfortunately many often walked out of church soon after

.
Those who walk out....feel they did the formula....they are now done.

(Not all. For many it was the real deal and they led long lives of service to God.)

These are the real believers....it is interesting sorting it all out.

But I'm wondering if maybe this decline in the various church organizations might not be a good thing directly from the hand of God? Might it be we have so watered things down folks are "in" the church but not "of" it?

Yes....essentially....the emotional and fleshly formula wears off.

If our entertainment worship or friendship evangelism or our pragmatic do-whatever-it-takes-to-get-them-in-the-door-gotta-be-relevant style isn't producing people really sold out to God

It is not for sure....but it is easy and pleasing to the flesh...so it will be maintained.

(and I DID say IF) wouldn't it be better for God to slam the door shut, let us clean our own house so to speak, and then move out in service?

this is happening in many places....

I'm thinking of back in the early times in this country and the "half-covenanters" and wondering if we aren't back there today in a sense?

This is exactly what is...good thought! They are settling for religious form and formulism....and have become dull of hearing.

Are we misleading folks into thinking they can have Jesus but keep the world and be popular in it also?

This is what is taking place...like a plague on the land.

 

[SolaSaint]

Nodak, this is a good thread. I feel we (Baptists) have given in to pragmatic approaches to not just worship but soteriology as well. As Icon mentioned about Dr. White's book, we win them with entertainment and I'll add we feel we have to keep them with the same. However I feel this is an age old dilemma. When I was a kid seemed like everyone went to church it wasn't an option and we didn't get any of this entertainment, seeker sensitive crap. We saw droves of kids slip out of church back then just as we do today.

As parents we want our kids to be saved. Back then we had to go to church today we think we have to make church appealing to our kids (where did that come from)?

There's another thread in hear bashing Paul Washer for hammering the SBC for their downgrade into this entertainment style of worship and evangelism. I for one wish we had more Paul Washer's. He see's the deception created by the likes of Rick Warren and Bill Hybels and others like them. I personally feel Rick Warren has done so much damage to the SBC in 20 years due to his PD programs. He has hoodwinked thousands of pastors and churches into believing they need to follow the Saddleback model to be successful. We get our churches full of young people who never get fed the gospel and when they figure out the deception they are gone. Some may be truly saved in spite of Purpose Driven methods, for God saves anyway, not a method or decisionism as Paul Washer says.

We will always do our best to get our youth to come to church but we know God will save only some of them. We need to feed them the truth of scripture and stop tickling their ears or pulling the strings of their hearts with emotional stories and skits (drama). OK I'm off the soap box.

 

[JonC]

Or am I all wet? What think ye?

I see what you mean…but it isn’t an either/or question. Being senile doesn’t mean you’re wrong.

 

[Thousand Hills]

Here is a BANA Group list of Post Christian areas in the USA.

http://cities.barna.org/the-most-post-christian-cities-in-america/

How dare you post something from Barna, everyone here knows that they have an agenda of promoting the house church movement and their stats can't be trusted. :laugh::laugh:

 

[Thousand Hills]

This is "the dirty little Baptist secret". We are quick to speak against the padeo Baptist who speaks about raising a "covenant child".....No...no sprinkling as a sign of the covenant.....and yet we have invented our own formula so to speak.

Instead.....we have a couple of ideas....as soon as the young child says...Jesus.....we baptize them. Or we wait until early teens so they can be moved by peer pressure, or parental pressure..ie, you know you are understanding things a bit better now and we notice you have not been baptized...so how about it? Three of your friends are getting baptized...would you like to go with them? I remember you said you believe Jesus is God.

Those who walk out....feel they did the formula....they are now done.

Sad, but true statement.

 

[Thousand Hills]

So here is my question: it got me thinking about back in the day when in some parts of the country it was just assumed that by 11-15 or so you would go forward, make a profession of faith, get baptized, and join the local Baptist church. Unfortunately many often walked out of church soon after. (Not all. For many it was the real deal and they led long lives of service to God.

Sounds like your describing cultural Christianity.

But I'm wondering if maybe this decline in the various church organizations might not be a good thing directly from the hand of God? Might it be we have so watered things down folks are "in" the church but not "of" it?

If our entertainment worship or friendship evangelism or our pragmatic do-whatever-it-takes-to-get-them-in-the-door-gotta-be-relevant style isn't producing people really sold out to God (and I DID say IF) wouldn't it be better for God to slam the door shut, let us clean our own house so to speak, and then move out in service?

I'm thinking of back in the early times in this country and the "half-covenanters" and wondering if we aren't back there today in a sense? Are we misleading folks into thinking they can have Jesus but keep the world and be popular in it also?

Or am I all wet? What think ye?

I think you are brave to post your thoughts here, as shown already some folks here will say your overreacting and that you don't have a clue about what is really going on. There is nothing wrong with evaluating where we are, seeing if what we are doing matches up with scripture, and faithfully proceeding forward to the best of our ability.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Sad, but true statement.

No no....heaven knows Iconoclast has finally hit the heart of the matter with this review. Nodak is also there.....but this is too darn hard to hear. And unless you hear it, digest it and take corrective action then your going to reap the rewards of a post Christian worldview.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Nodak, this is a good thread. I feel we (Baptists) have given in to pragmatic approaches to not just worship but soteriology as well. As Icon mentioned about Dr. White's book, we win them with entertainment and I'll add we feel we have to keep them with the same. However I feel this is an age old dilemma. When I was a kid seemed like everyone went to church it wasn't an option and we didn't get any of this entertainment, seeker sensitive crap. We saw droves of kids slip out of church back then just as we do today.

As parents we want our kids to be saved. Back then we had to go to church today we think we have to make church appealing to our kids (where did that come from)?

There's another thread in hear bashing Paul Washer for hammering the SBC for their downgrade into this entertainment style of worship and evangelism. I for one wish we had more Paul Washer's. He see's the deception created by the likes of Rick Warren and Bill Hybels and others like them. I personally feel Rick Warren has done so much damage to the SBC in 20 years due to his PD programs. He has hoodwinked thousands of pastors and churches into believing they need to follow the Saddleback model to be successful. We get our churches full of young people who never get fed the gospel and when they figure out the deception they are gone. Some may be truly saved in spite of Purpose Driven methods, for God saves anyway, not a method or decisionism as Paul Washer says.

We will always do our best to get our youth to come to church but we know God will save only some of them. We need to feed them the truth of scripture and stop tickling their ears or pulling the strings of their hearts with emotional stories and skits (drama). OK I'm off the soap box.

Amen amen amen:thumbs: