Have the "gifts of the spirit" ceased?

[BobRyan]

The problems is that "APART" from the gift of healing - the genuine gift of healing - you CAN pray the James 5 prayer of faith - and there are REAL cases when God responds with miraculous healing. But the "prayer of faith" is not a gift limited to just some - ALL are to pray and ALL must have faith and ALL must claim Bible promises.

So healings that come about in that context are NOT examples of the "gift of healing".

Take a cloth and pass it around as did Paul - and note that all who touch it are instantly healed. THAT is unmistakable - and does not happen today - because people don't have that gift. The same is true with the other instant healings of Christ and the Apostles - they HAD the gift of healing and it was instantaneous - and 100%.

What people exercise today is the "prayer of faith" not the gift of healing.

Of course nothing stops God from GIVING them the gift of healing - but the fact is none of the miracle gifts of 1Cor 12 are seen today - which is a commentary on our poor spiritual condition - not God's fault - not His design - not His plan, not a loss of interest on His part in healing by direct miracle, or loss of interest in giving powerful spiritual gifts to the church.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Briguy]

Hey all, I'm back from a camping trip and see this topic didn't die yet, surprize surprize!

Anyway, I only skimmed the posts and so may say something already covered. Paul is just making a point with this let the next prophet speak thing. If you notice in the verse it says that the one with the "revelation" must start speaking, even if someone else has to stop for him to start. A revelation is something brand new from God. It is not some re-hashed information. If God chose a prophet in a given assembly and gave them something "brand new" that would be more important then the current message being brought that was for building up and comfort for the assembly. This is now a moot issue as new revelation is gone and as God's Word, The Bible is complete and needs nothing added to it. Church services in this dispensation are different then they were when Paul wrote 1 cor. 14 because things changed so much in the 50 to 75 years following its writing. We generally have just one main speaker because we have 1 to 2 hour services. I am not sure but I am guessing that the gathered assembly in the early church met for several hours at a time. That is just a guess, maybe someone knows more on that.

DHK was right on the tongues issue. They knew what language they were going to speak by the audience they were speaking to. If a Aramaic speaking family came to a Greek speaking assembly (in 60ad say) they would not understand anything said unless a tongue speaker gave them a message in their language. This would happen up to 2 or 3 times during the service. An interpreter would interpret what was said by the tongue speakers so everyone would be edified during the tongue speaking. Tongues and Int. in that way meet the "gift" need of "edifying all" (1 cor. 12:7). This is straight forward and logical stuff here, it is not as confusing as some make it.

All for now,
In Christ,
Brian

 

[atestring]

Originally posted by Briguy:
Hey all, I'm back from a camping trip and see this topic didn't die yet, surprize surprize!

Anyway, I only skimmed the posts and so may say something already covered. Paul is just making a point with this let the next prophet speak thing. If you notice in the verse it says that the one with the "revelation" must start speaking, even if someone else has to stop for him to start. A revelation is something brand new from God. It is not some re-hashed information. If God chose a prophet in a given assembly and gave them something "brand new" that would be more important then the current message being brought that was for building up and comfort for the assembly. This is now a moot issue as new revelation is gone and as God's Word, The Bible is complete and needs nothing added to it. Church services in this dispensation are different then they were when Paul wrote 1 cor. 14 because things changed so much in the 50 to 75 years following its writing. We generally have just one main speaker because we have 1 to 2 hour services. I am not sure but I am guessing that the gathered assembly in the early church met for several hours at a time. That is just a guess, maybe someone knows more on that.

DHK was right on the tongues issue. They knew what language they were going to speak by the audience they were speaking to. If a Aramaic speaking family came to a Greek speaking assembly (in 60ad say) they would not understand anything said unless a tongue speaker gave them a message in their language. This would happen up to 2 or 3 times during the service. An interpreter would interpret what was said by the tongue speakers so everyone would be edified during the tongue speaking. Tongues and Int. in that way meet the "gift" need of "edifying all" (1 cor. 12:7). This is straight forward and logical stuff here, it is not as confusing as some make it.

All for now,
In Christ,
Brian

Isn't it interesting that this topic hassn't died.
Soon it will be at the 20 page limit and will "cease" until someone brings this subjcet again and it will probably go for 20 pages.
I think that there is a hunger in many people (Especially those that seem hostile toward this doctrine).
BTW I hope your camping trip is good.
I will be taking a vacation myself in acouple of Days and will be going to Nashville Tennessee to ride the General Jackson and to go to the Ryman Auditorium to hear the old legend of Bluegrass music Doc Watson.
I will be back soon and will be posting on the new Thread that will come up after this one ceases.

 

[music4Him]

Welcome back Brian!

& Ditto on what atestring said about the camping trip, hope you had a nice time. I don't get to go camping as much as I would like (what I concider camping), but we live about 5 or 6 blocks from the lake so I have no idea what the problem is.

atestring you are probley right about this topic. I was even riding to church yesterday and lo and behold it was on the radio.

Speaking of that radio program ya'll (all that are debating this topic). This is something that brings up a good question. As I listened to the Baptist Granny Preacher. (No kidding or atleast that what she sounded like and I didn't catch who it was.) Anyhoo

Read Acts 8:12-20 and ask yourself these questions....
1.Where these belivers?
2.Where they baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus?
3.Why is it then in verse 17 they get hands laid on them and "recive" the Holy Ghost if they are already saved? Saved by believing in Jesus and water baptized...why didn't they just leave it right there? (The reason I ask this question is that some tell me the Holy Ghost dwells in them when they were saved.) But then the Apostles come and lay hands on them to recive the Holy Ghost.

The way I read it and think about other bible stories I see a pattern here, first they belived, then baptized, then after a while (learning time possibley?) they recived the Holy Ghost.
Like the disciples that Jesus chose did they first belive, then have baptizim and then right before Jesus was to go to the cross He told them about the Comforter (John 16), then later... 40 days after Jesus ascended at Pentacost they recived the Holy Ghost in the upper room. It seems to be a process to me. Paul seemed to recive some insight quicker then others but I still need to do some more study on Paul yet to really know that. He might have went through the same process to? Whatca think?

Music4Him

 

[MEE]

Originally posted by music4Him:


Read Acts 8:12-20 and ask yourself these questions....
1.Where these belivers?
2.Where they baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus?
3.Why is it then in verse 17 they get hands laid on them and "recive" the Holy Ghost if they are already saved? Saved by believing in Jesus and water baptized...why didn't they just leave it right there? (The reason I ask this question is that some tell me the Holy Ghost dwells in them when they were saved.) But then the Apostles come and lay hands on them to recive the Holy Ghost.

The way I read it and think about other bible stories I see a pattern here, first they belived, then baptized, then after a while (learning time possibley?) they recived the Holy Ghost.
Like the disciples that Jesus chose did they first belive, then have baptizim and then right before Jesus was to go to the cross He told them about the Comforter (John 16), then later... 40 days after Jesus ascended at Pentacost they recived the Holy Ghost in the upper room. It seems to be a process to me. Paul seemed to recive some insight quicker then others but I still need to do some more study on Paul yet to really know that. He might have went through the same process to? Whatca think?

Music4Him

M4H, there is a pattern! On the Day of Pentecost, Peter told the believers to repent, be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, and that they would receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. (Acts 2:38) It was/is to be that way until our Lord returns.

Acts 19 is the same! The believers hadn't heard all of the gospel. Paul asked them, "Have ye received the Holy Ghost since you believed?"

Paul explained to them that John's baptism wasn't valid any longer. That is why they had to be rebaptized in the name of Jesus Christ.

After baptism, Paul laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

Yes, you are correct; there is a pattern.

MEE

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by MEE:
there is a pattern! On the Day of Pentecost, Peter told the believers to repent, be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, and that they would receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. (Acts 2:38) It was/is to be that way until our Lord returns.

This theology assumes that Peter and the rest of the Apostles, along with the mother of Jesus all were not saved until they spoke in tongues. You really believe this??

Acts 19 is the same! The believers hadn't heard all of the gospel. Paul asked them, "Have ye received the Holy Ghost since you believed?"

"since you believed" Hmmm? They did believe then didn't they? What did they believe? They believed the message of John the Baptist. What was the message of John the Baptist?

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
--He taught that Jesus atones for our sin; that the sacrifice of Christ takes away the sin of the world.

John 1:30 This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me.
--Every one knew that John was older and born first. He was teaching the deity of Christ; that Christ was God, and came from Heaven.

John 1:34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.
He testifies, by the Holy Spirit (previous verse), that Jesus Christ is the Son of God (deity).

John also said: "He must increase; I must decrease."
--He knew who was the important One for people to set their eyes on. He pointed people to Christ.

They believed on Christ because of John. It is of little consequence that they did not have yet a "Christian Baptism," nor yet that they had not heard of the Holy Spirit.
John (with all the thousands that he had baptized) probably did not have the time to take these ones aside and give them a theology course in pneumatology. Even new believers need time to grow in the grace of God and in the Lord Jesus Christ. Some time ago we had a poster on here that had a clear testimony of salvation (being born again), and yet never realized that Christ was God. Is that possible one may question? BTW, what was amazing is that he held that belief for 20 years, until he came to this board. People need to be taught. If that man could remain saved without realizing that Christ is God for 20 years in our day and age; is it not possible for that group of believers to be saved in that day and age without having an understanding of the Holy Spirit. Paul taught them of the Holy Spirit. They were baptized. They spoke in tongues for the sake of the Jews around them. The speaking in tongues had nothing to do with their salvation or an evidence of their salvation.
DHK

 

[Briguy]

Hi All, thanks for the well wishes in regards to camping with my family. We have a pop-up camper so we don't "rough it" to much. We are going for six nights to a Christian camp in less then two weeks. It is a great week of fellowship and recharging. At least it was the last 2 years we went. I expect it will be this year as well.

Now, about the scriptures in Acts. I have seen a couple theories and teaching on the verses you are using. One teaching is that God brought salvation to three groups of people and that is why there are three instances in Acts where the Holy Spirit is given (so-to-speak). First salvation is given to the Jews, the Holy Spirit comes upon them, etc...(Acts 2), Then the Samarians (sp?), who were "part Jewish" (Acts 6 - I think) and then later in Acts (19, I believe) to the Gentiles. Three different groups which span all the possibilities for people. These were special events and only seen these three times. We don't see this when the thousands of souls were added, in early Acts. That is what the teaching says and it seems to make some sense in a logical way. Otherwise, in the case of Acts 6 there may be another explanation that is more simple, perhaps it could work with the other theory. That being that the Baptism that was first talked about with that group was the Baptism of repentence that is talked about in Acts 2:38, being how this group was partially of Jewish desent they would fall under the category of "what shall we do?" First they were Baptized with repentence and then were open to the saving belief that followed. The text read carefully does just say that they believed what Phillip was teaching, not that they were believers in Jesus right away. Anyway, there is two explanations to think over. The second is just mine, I did not read that anywhere that I know of. The first I ran across in a commontary at one point.

Atestring, have a great time in the Nashville area!! Enjoy the music!

In Christ our Lord,
Brian

 

[MEE]

I'd like to say something, since this is the twentieth page and this topic will soon be closed.

I came to this forum, upon request and decided to stay, in order to learn what others believe. I must say that I've learned some very interesting doctrines.

Some I find are very intelligent and others will probably never see God for what He really is. Others, well it seems that they are still under the belief that we are still under the law; that the gosple of John is all we need. This is so sad!

Anyway this is my last post, on this thread.

MEE

 

[richardsherratt]

Hello all

,

Does the cessessionist say that discernment has also disapeared?

Regards,
Richard Sherratt

 

[Briguy]

Hi Richard, welcome to the never ending thread.

Discernment as a gift is an ability to recognize spirits that are not of God. There is nothing Biblical to say that this gift has ended so it remains. DHK would say it ended with the completion of the Bible. I believe only healing, miracles, tongues, Interpretation of tongues, are gone. Anyway, where do you fall in this discussion?

In Christ,
Brian

 

[richardsherratt]

Originally posted by Briguy:
Anyway, where do you fall in this discussion?

Hi Brian,

I do not know!!

Regards,
Richard Sherratt

 

[tamborine lady]

Briguy said:Discernment as a gift is an ability to recognize spirits that are not of God.

Tam says: The gift of discernment also helps us to recognize people that have Gods spirit within them also!

Tam

 

[music4Him]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------posted by MEE:
there is a pattern! On the Day of Pentecost, Peter told the believers to repent, be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, and that they would receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. (Acts 2:38) It was/is to be that way until our Lord returns.
--------------------------------------------------

posted by DHK:
This theology assumes that Peter and the rest of the Apostles, along with the mother of Jesus all were not saved until they spoke in tongues. You really believe this??
--------------------------------------------------

12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. 13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.

14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John: 15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost: 16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.) 17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

DHK I see three things happening here. 1st they believed(I am assuming unto salvation), 2nd they got water baptized, and 3rd recived the Holy Ghost.

Looking down a little futher there seems to be a pattern when Philip witnessed to the eunuch. Philip preached Jesus to him after reading Esaias (Isaiah). The eunuch believed (I assume unto salvation) and was water baptized, don't quite say if he got the baptizim of the Holy Ghost but he went on his way rejoicing.

36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? 37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. 38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him. 39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.

DHK after they believed and was baptized a while later something else happened too. Or thats the way I read it.

Music4Him

 

[Link]

Briguy, DHK,

Even if you believe that 'that which is perfect has come' what is yoru biblical basis for believing that the gift of the working of miracles has ceased? Do you have any scripture you believe supports this idea?

 

[Briguy]

Hi Link, only DHK believes "that which is perfect" has come. I believe it has not come. The perfect refers to our eternal state, therefore I see it as meaning, either when we die and are with Jesus or when Jesus comes and establishes his Kingdom, whatever happens to a person first.

The gift of miracles was in relation to raising someone from the dead at the will of the person performing the miracle (the rising of the dead person). This does not happen today therefore I can conclude the gift is gone. It is just a simple logical argument, not a deep Biblical theology. This was not a widley given gift as we see only examples of Paul and Peter rising the dead. I am sure other Apostles and maybe a few others had the gift as well. They would only use it to forward the gospel and the teachings of Jesus, because it still, as the nature of a "gift" was required to edify the "body". Hope that explains my position a little.

Hey Richard, if you have any questions, please ask them. You are at an interesting point in that you seem to be "exploring" the gift thing right now. Remember to take what the Bible says first and all of our opinions second (like I really had to tell you that). I had an open my mind when I looked into tongues and the other gifts and tried to read the Bible verses myself and also several commentaries to broaden my understanding. I have read things on all sides of the issue. I really liked what McArther had to say as well as some others. Happy studying!!!!

In Christian Love,
Brian

 

[BobRyan]

Now we see in a glass darkly but "Then" face to face.

In 1John 4 John says that "Then we whall see Him as He is" - Then we shall know even as we are known by those in heaven today.

But until then - faith remains, the gifts to the church remain, wisdom, discernment, teaching, prophecy, faith in that which is not seen remains (Heb 11 and Romans 8).

As Eph 4 states these gifts to the church are to remain "until WE ALL grow up into the FULLNESS of the measure of the stature of Christ".

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Briguy]

Bob, the "sign" gifts do not need to remain to fit your understanding of those verses. The biggest proof that the "sign" gifts are gone is that we do not see them practiced anymore. I say that knowing some will claim they see the "sign" gifts all the time but I contend that what is seen today does not meet the Biblical basics for how the "sign" gifts were used. My answer to the miracle gift above still stands. "Gifts are at the will of the user, otherwise "helps", "governments", etc... make no sense. You can't have your cake and eat it to when it comes to this discussion. Either a gift is a gift or it is something else. Never mistake a miracle from God as a "gift" that a person has.

In Christ,
Brian

 

[tamborine lady]

Just the fact that we have filled twenty pages with pros and cons of the gifts should be a red flag to the people who have said the gifts have ceased.

You do not see them because you do not believe they exist. When you do not believe, God is not going to show the results of his power.

Jesus told Thomas that "blessed are those who haven't seen and still believe".

Wouldn't it be good to say "Lord, I believe that you can give the gifts today if you want to. Even though I have not seen them, I believe that you are in control, and can do anything, and I will believe that because your word says so. If I don't see them work, that's O.K. But Lord show me what you want me to know about these gifts."

I would urge all of you to ask God to show the truth about the gifts of the Spirit.

Working for Jesus,

Tam

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by Briguy:
Bob, the "sign" gifts do not need to remain to fit your understanding of those verses. The biggest proof that the "sign" gifts are gone is that we do not see them practiced anymore.

If that was "proof" then prophecy ended 300 years before Christ and Paul was in error to insist that we "Desire earnestly that we might prophesy".

Spiritual decline in the church has never been a "kind of proof" that God no longer intends to bless with His gifts to the church.

Briguy
I say that knowing some will claim they see the "sign" gifts all the time but I contend that what is seen today does not meet the Biblical basics for how the "sign" gifts were used.

You may be right in that we have many counterfeits today. But the fact that fakes exists does not form a "proof" that the genuine must not exist. You are arguing from seeing failures rather than arguing from scripture.

Briguy

My answer to the miracle gift above still stands. "Gifts are at the will of the user, otherwise "helps", "governments", etc... make no sense. You can't have your cake and eat it to when it comes to this discussion. Either a gift is a gift or it is something else.

That has never been true in all of Biblical history. If it had been true - prophets would have been able to "command the Spirit to prophesy through them" as easily as choosing to speak in tongues, or pray, or exercise faith, or teach or preach.

Your argument simply does not hold up to the test of scripture.

Further - the examples given in 1Cor 14 show a huge distinction between the "at-will" practice of tongues and the "at-God's-choice-alone" exercise of prophecy.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[atestring]

Hey Yall,
I am back from Music City and am surprised that this thread has not closed. This has been an interesting thread and i am sure it will continue wheither in this thread or another one. I believe that there is a spiritual hunger among most people today. This spiritual hunger will either be filled by an encounter with the Holy spirit with al of His gifts and power or people will turn to things outside of Jesus to try to fill a void. We are living in times that we need the power that the early Apostles had to get the message of Jesus to this world especially in NOrth America. Outside of North America there is a great work of God going on and it includes the message of The power and demonstration of God rather than inticing words of Mans wisdom. The more people in North America fight the Holy Spirit and His power the more we will experience a decline in people turning to Jesus and a high rate of people turning to new age and other avenues for filling a hunger that is inside their hearts. As For Me I want the Holy Spirit to fall on me afresh and new every day and I want all that God has for me and all that the Holy Spirit can do through me. I want to see a revival in North America and it will not happen without a return to the power and the gifts that the Eraly Apostles had. Thank God that the cessationist are wrong and there is a great outpouring of The Holy Spirit that Jesus wants to baptize us in.