Have we turned the sinner's prayer into a sacrament???

[Van]

You telling everyone what to thing, and disparaging anyone that disagrees is not “biblical discussion”. You skip over exegesis of verses and discussions of context and jump straight to scripture pong with proof texts or just restating your opinion.

Good luck with your program of self sanctification through hard work. I will stick with trusting in Jesus, since I couldn’t save myself and I can’t make myself perfect, either. (like Philippians 2:13 says.)

Yet another you, you, you post of false charges. Rightly understood scripture tells what we should think.

We are trying to follow Christ, thus growing more like Christ in our walk, and in order to do that we must evaluate our walk, confess our shortcomings, and strive to do better.

We are to listen to our indwelt Spirit as we evaluate our walk.

John 14:26
“But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.

John 16:8
“And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment;

1) Progressive sanctification requires that we evaluate our walk, confess our missteps and strive to follow Christ every day.

2) How often should we test ourselves to see if we are of the faith? Who is saved, those that endure for a little while, or those who endure to the end? How do we know we are enduring to the end if we ignore our walk and engage in lawlessness?

3) The issue is not what I "make it out to be" but what scripture teaches.

Luke 9:23
And He was saying to them all, “If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross daily and follow Me.

Galatians 6:4
But each one must examine his own work, and then he will have reason for boasting in regard to himself alone, and not in regard to another.

1Thessalonians 5:21
But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good;

 

[Van]

YOU were talking about “progressive sanctification” in the post that I responded to!
Read it for yourself:

Can you explain how “trying to follow Christ” and “growing more like Christ” and “evaluating our walk” and “strive to do better” can be applied to POSITIONAL sanctification rather than PROGRESSIVE sanctification? It was your great self-effort at increasing your sanctification with your feedback cycle of examination, try harder, do better, re-examine self ... that prompted my comparison with the Pharisee treadmill of self-righteous duties.

If all a person needs to do is say the sinner's prayer, that then results in being automatically saved, then yes, that turns of sinners prayer into the action on our part that obtains God's grace. This would be advocated by the Easy Believism advocates who believe if you profess belief in Christ you are "automatically" saved. It is of course, nonsense. We are saved when God alone places us spiritually into Christ. And God does that when He credits our faith as righteousness (or not). The people of Matthew 7 professed belief yet were not saved. The second and third soils of Matthew 13 professed belief yet were not saved.

After we are placed into Christ, our positional sanctification, then we strive to follow the leading of our indwelt Spirit, who works to aid us, Philippians 2:13, as we strive to earn rewards as we serve Christ.

 

[atpollard]

Rightly understood scripture tells what we should think.

... and only you "rightly understand" scripture.
We comprehend your message and disagree with its content.
[Hence all of the "you, you, you" responses.]

 

[atpollard]

If all a person needs to do is say the sinner's prayer, that then results in being automatically saved, then yes, that turns of sinners prayer into the action on our part that obtains God's grace. This would be advocated by the Easy Believism advocates who believe if you profess belief in Christ you are "automatically" saved. It is of course, nonsense. We are saved when God alone places us spiritually into Christ. And God does that when He credits our faith as righteousness (or not). The people of Matthew 7 professed belief yet were not saved. The second and third soils of Matthew 13 professed belief yet were not saved.

Whether true or not, it is irrelevant to progressive sanctification which is what your post and my response was about ... and both are irrelevant to the OP, so "whatever" ... you win.

 

[Van]

... and only you "rightly understand" scripture.
We comprehend your message and disagree with its content.
[Hence all of the "you, you, you" responses.]

Did I say I am the only one who rightly understands scripture? Of course not. They make up false charges and spew them non-stop.

 

[Van]

Whether true or not, it is irrelevant to progressive sanctification which is what your post and my response was about ... and both are irrelevant to the OP, so "whatever" ... you win.

Note my post was edited to remove the following:
After we are placed into Christ, our positional sanctification, then we strive to follow the leading of our indwelt Spirit, who works to aid us, Philippians 2:13, as we strive to earn rewards as we serve Christ.

 

[atpollard]

Did I say I am the only one who rightly understands scripture? Of course not. They make up false charges and spew them non-stop.

No, you just say that everyone who disagrees with you is wrong and then play the victim (like in this post).

[Poor Van ... so mistreated and misunderstood.]

 

[atpollard]

Note my post was edited to remove the following:
After we are placed into Christ, our positional sanctification, then we strive to follow the leading of our indwelt Spirit, who works to aid us, Philippians 2:13, as we strive to earn rewards as we serve Christ.

So noted.
Note that progressive sanctification is still OFF-TOPIC from the OP and GOD is still the one who does the Progressive Sanctifying (per Philippians 2:13).

 

[Van]

No, you just say that everyone who disagrees with you is wrong and then play the victim (like in this post).

[Poor Van ... so mistreated and misunderstood.]

You you you yet again, false teachers cannot present truth so they present disinformation non-stop.
I say the bible means what it says.
When we are sealed with the Holy Spirit, we are sealed forever, thus we can never be separated from Christ.

 

[MB]

In the middles ages the Catholic church changed the definition of a sacrament to be something that gives grace instead of something the is a sign or signified a given grace. Which is one reason we Baptist use the word ordinance instead of sacrament. Because we see Baptism and the Lord's Supper as "an outward sign of an inner grace". It is our, (at least my) understanding that all grace comes through faith, not sacraments presided over by a priest or pastor. And that participation in the life of the church through prayer, study, worship, serving, giving, and the ordinances are means of grace only in that they grow and strengthen our faith. God changes who we are and that in turn changes what we do.

But as I've read through some of the threads on this forum it occurred to me that perhaps we Baptist (and Evangelicals in general) have turned the Sinner's Prayer into a Sacrament. By this I mean we believe that "saying the sinner's prayer" has become the means of Salvation instead of a sign of Salvation. And maybe the goal of evangelism has become to get people to say the "sinner's prayer" instead of leading them to a deep and abiding faith in Christ.

While we don't use the term sacrament, it seems to me that our usage of the sinner's prayer has become a sacrament of sorts. In that many see it as how we are saved instead of a sign of God's grace which has already worked to change our heart from a heart of stone to a heart of flesh.

Thoughts????

I don't understand why so many hate the sinners prayer. It is not a Catholic position as if they are the inventor of the Christian religion. It is not Calvinist position. It seems people hate it simply because they are asking God to forgive them of there sins and save them. People who hate it so severely wish to stop this salvation process. In my opinion the hatred of it is Satanic..
Jas_4:2 Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not.
MB

 

[Van]

So noted.
Note that progressive sanctification is still OFF-TOPIC from the OP and GOD is still the one who does the Progressive Sanctifying (per Philippians 2:13).

Right, whoever introduced Philippians 2:13 was off topic.
God and the born anew believer work together, and if not, the believer does not follow the Holy Spirit's leading.

 

[atpollard]

You you you yet again, false teachers cannot present truth so they present disinformation non-stop.
I say the bible means what it says.
When we are sealed with the Holy Spirit, we are sealed forever, thus we can never be separated from Christ.

That stuff will destroy your brain, brother.
I never said anything contrary to eternal security ... as a 5 point Calvinist, I completely agree with the (P) Preservation of the Saints in TULIP.

We are trying to follow Christ, thus growing more like Christ in our walk, and in order to do that we must evaluate our walk, confess our shortcomings, and strive to do better.

You were the one that claimed:

• WE TRY
• WE EVALUATE
• WE CONFESS
• WE STRIVE TO DO BETTER

... so WE are the ones that can succeed or fail.

I was the one that claimed:

[Philippians 2:13 NASB] 13 for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for [His] good pleasure.

• GOD IS AT WORK
  
• GOD CREATES IN US THE DESIRE TO OBEY
• GOD EMPOWERS US TO OBEY
• GOD DOES THIS BECAUSE HE WANTS TO!

... so GOD is the one that must succeed or fail, and God never fails.

[HOWEVER NONE OF THIS HAS ANYTHING TO DO WITH THE OP.]

 

[atpollard]

I don't understand why so many hate the sinners prayer. It is not a Catholic position as if they are the inventor of the Christian religion. It is not Calvinist position. It seems people hate it simply because they are asking God to forgive them of there sins and save them. People who hate it so severely wish to stop this salvation process. In my opinion the hatred of it is Satanic..
Jas_4:2 Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not.
MB

I think it is less about hating the prayer than concern over its misuse.

For the OP, the concern is that one CANNOT BE SAVED without saying the right prayer, the right way, or believing that the Prayer Itself saved you rather than who the prayer is spoken to that (Jesus) that saved you.

For myself, I am more concerned that people might mistake the prayer for the end of a journey (the Finish Line) rather than the beginning of a relationship (the start of a race/courtship).

Honestly, there are a lot of things that the members tend to take too seriously or too lightly. When a 3 year old is drinking grape juice from a disposable cup, the "wine" has come to mean too little and when people think that drinking that cup will save them, it has come to mean too much.

 

[Van]

That stuff will destroy your brain, brother. SNIP

Now, after posting non-stop denial, he agrees with every point I made in post #14.

 

[lanman87]

I don't understand why so many hate the sinners prayer. It is not a Catholic position as if they are the inventor of the Christian religion. It is not Calvinist position. It seems people hate it simply because they are asking God to forgive them of there sins and save them. People who hate it so severely wish to stop this salvation process. In my opinion the hatred of it is Satanic..
Jas_4:2 Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not.
MB

I never said anything about hating the sinners prayer. Saying a prayer of belief, thanksgiving, confession, repentance and asking for help in living out the new belief is the natural first act of someone who comes to faith.

My questions is more about the fact that it seems we have almost turned the "sinner's prayer" into a sacrament or ritual by which we are saved instead of an expression of belief/faith as worded by a new believer.

 

[Yeshua1]

... and only you "rightly understand" scripture.
We comprehend your message and disagree with its content.
[Hence all of the "you, you, you" responses.]

Which is when the amusing "taint so" are sent!

 

[Yeshua1]

I never said anything about hating the sinners prayer. Saying a prayer of belief, thanksgiving, confession, repentance and asking for help in living out the new belief is the natural first act of someone who comes to faith.

My questions is more about the fact that it seems we have almost turned the "sinner's prayer" into a sacrament or ritual by which we are saved instead of an expression of belief/faith as worded by a new believer.

When we have it as "asking Jesus into your heart" as the prayer, and do not really inform the person on what a commitment to Jesus as Lord and savior means, is when we get many who delude themselves as now saved due to a one time altar call!

 

[atpollard]

My questions is more about the fact that it seems we have almost turned the "sinner's prayer" into a sacrament or ritual by which we are saved instead of an expression of belief/faith as worded by a new believer.

"What must I do to be saved?" (acts 16:30)

A simple, common, straightforward question.
How would YOU answer it?

 

[atpollard]

When we have it as "asking Jesus into your heart" as the prayer, and do not really inform the person on what a commitment to Jesus as Lord and savior means, is when we get many who delude themselves as now saved due to a one time altar call!

"What must I do to be saved?" (acts 16:30)

A simple, common, straightforward question.
How would YOU answer it?

 

[Yeshua1]

"What must I do to be saved?" (acts 16:30)

A simple, common, straightforward question.
How would YOU answer it?

Same way Paul answered the jailer!