Have you studied Islam?

If you want to learn a bit about Islam from Muslims and debate with them concerning Yeshua you can join:

http://www.myiwc.com/

And put your ideas on there COMPARATIVE religion section. They do not allow you to PREACH Christianity but you can discuss COMPARISONS (there is a slight difference).

Netcurtains writes there from time to time and puts his liberal catholic view point.

 

I didn't say that non-Christians were saved, I said that non-Christians worship.

There are many in our own pews who worship, but are not yet saved, because they haven't yet acepted Christ. They are two distinct and separate things.

 

DKH: the incident happened with an Ethiopian man on an Ethiopian Airlines flight to Addis Ababa. I think we were on his turf

Anyway, I am not suggesting that people of other cultures go back to where they came from. I'm Canadian, like DHK said. We don't tend to think that way, rather we value diversity.

What I am saying is that we need to keep their culture in mind. Many Muslims do not object to Christianity itself, because they never get to hear about Christianity by itself. They object to the culture that Westerners tend to present as part of it. We should not preach "culture Christianity." DHK, every Muslim has thousands of excuses not to hear the Gospel. We eat pork, we drink wine (some of us), we mark up our Bibles, we do not set aside five times a day for corporate prayer, and the list goes on. If these things in themselves are not part of Christianity - and they are not - then why do we present them alongside the Gospel message? Why do we give Muslims an excuse? I'm not saying that we should all stop eating pork here. Certainly if you are a missionary in a Muslim society, or if your primary witness is to Muslims, then it's something to consider. All I'm saying is that we need to be sensitive to their culture and be careful that we do not present ours - which is often offensive - to them alongside Christianity.

 

What meaning does it have if you are saying that they worship God in vain? It is meaningless.

 

Is worship of God in vain if one does not know any better? I don't know. That discussion is currently going on in a different forum, so I'll leave leave it there to be discussed, rather than here.

 

Several people have asserted that "Allah" is the name of a moon god from ancient arabic polytheism, something that I have factually refuted.

If the word "Allah" is the God of Islam, what word do Arabic Christians and Jews have for God?

 

According to my sister, who is fluent in Arabic, they also use Allah. We say God willing, they say insha'Allah.

 

Your sister is correct. Jews and Christians who speak Arabic say "Allah".

In fact, I got an email earlier today from an Arabic speaking Baptist who lives in Jordan. Baptist Christians in Arabic countries say "Allah". Additionally, the Bible in Arabic uses the word "Allah". He also reminded me that "Allah" had been used by Arabic speaking Jews and Christians to refer to God for hundreds of years before Mohammed was even born, effectively dispelling the moon-god origin myth.

 

Doesn't dispel the fact of the moon-god at all. John, the god of Islam, whom they call Allah "evolved" from the pagan diety of that part of the Arabian Penninsula from which Mohammed came. That diety was a moon-god named Allah. Fight it and quibble all you want. BTW, the names I hear most often in Arabic for the Christian/Jewish God (the one true and living God) is some form of "El," or sometimes what sounds to me like "Allah Avrem" (and I know I spelled it wrong, but it means "God of Abraham" - and it's never shortened to just "Allah"). Of course that's just my experience.

 

Several of my sister's Arabic teachers were Christians, and they use Allah, and according to them, so did most other Christians they knew. The believe that Isa (Jesus) is the divine Son of Allah.

Also, I remember reading that Muhammed started Islam because he was fed up with the polytheism which was prevalent in his day. If this is true, why would he use the name of a pagan god?

 

How many hundereds of years have people been worshipping this deity as the only true God? If you've been brought up believing that Bugs Bunny is the name for God anytime you want to say God you say Bugs Bunny.

John,

What may be true for those who have never heard the Good News isn't necessarily true for those who have. I would venture to say that most Muslims in this country have heard of Jesus Christ and his message and have rejected it.

 

Your Arabic Christian friends use the name Allah for "god" because that's what it means in Arabic. That is how it is translated in John 1:1. Most false religions use the word "god" as well. Do you believe in the Mormon god, the Jehovah Witness god, Unification's (Moonies) god, the New Age god, etc.? Are these all the same god? Are they all defined as the God of the Bible just because they are spelt G-o-d? And, just because in Arabic they would also be spelt A-l-l-a-h? Does that make the two gods the same?

You are correct in saying that Mohammed no longer liked the polytheistic culture that he lived among. They were mostly animists. He, as a camel driver, had heard many Bible stories in the market places from the Jews and Christians. The monotheistic system of one God only, that the Jews and Christians had, appealed to him. He chose one of those pagan gods, a moon-god, and called it Allah, "God" in Arabic. That was his God. Where do you think the crescent moon on all Islamic symbols comes from?
DHK

 

I'm not sure what you're getting at here... your reasoning suggests to me that Arabic speaking Christians are right to use the name Allah. And I don't see how you can infer from what I've said that I am a "feel good" Christian who thinks that everyone is fine. I believe there is one triune God, and that it does not make a difference what name you use to refer to Him. In the Old Testament He was known by many names, as it is today. To English speaking Christians, he's known as God. To French speaking Christians, He's known as Dieu. There are thousands of other names for Him in the thousands of languages spoken. And to Arabic speaking Christians, He's known as Allah. These are all the same God. English speaking people of other religions may worship one whom they call God, or French speaking people of other religions may also worship one whom they call Dieu, but or they may have misconceptions about the true God. In any case, though, there is only one, and the ones who truly worship Him are Christians.

If you've never read it, I suggest you take a look at "Eternity in their Hearts" by Don Richardson. Fascinating book exploring monotheistic belief systems in remote people groups. For example, some missionaries came upon a group in Southeast Asia (Thailand, I think) who worshipped a God they called Thakur Jiu (or something similar, which meant something along the lines of "almighty God" - haven't read it in a while so the details are fuzzy). But they believed this was the only true and almighty God, but that they were estranged from him. What would you tell them, that this Thakur Jiu is a total myth? The missionaries there said "Yes, you're right, Thakur Jiu is all powerful, and yes, you are estranged from Him because of your sin. But now He has reached out to you by sending His Son to take away your sin so that you no longer need to be estranged!" So there grew up an entire community of devoted disciples of Jesus Christ, Son of Thakur Jiu. Is this wrong? Absolutely not. If they had been told otherwise, they would never have come to faith in Christ. Jesus has many other sheep which are not of this fold.

 

What I am saying here is that no matter which way you translate the word "god," Dieu, Allah, Thakur Jiu, Dios, Theos, etc. If, in the mind of the person using the word "god" or the word translated "god," if that "God" is not the God of the Bible, then He is not the same God that we worship. Thus the Muslim God is not the God of Abraham, is not the God of the Bible, is not the God that we worship. He is not the Triune Godhead, the Jehovah of the Old Testament, the Lord Jesus Christ of the New Testament. That is who God is. God must be defined according to the parameters of the Word of God. Many religions and cults use the word "god." But we all don't worship that "god," unless He is defined explicitly according to the Word of God. The Islamic god especially has nothing in common with the God of Christianity.

Jesus said: I am the way the truth and the life; no man comes unto the Father but by me. (John 14:6)
The other sheep that He was referring to were not of other religions, other faiths, and outside of Christ. Christ never taught that. The "other sheep" would be the Gentiles that would shortly be saved after His death. They too would become His sheep.
DHK

[ November 22, 2002, 03:10 AM: Message edited by: DHK ]

 

I didn't say that. I mean that there are many other groups today that are like the Gentiles of the first century. Muslim people may not be of our "fold", they have different ways of thinking and seeing the world, but they are sheep also, and Jesus will bring some of them, using us, if we are willing. And I think that groups of people exist who have never heard from modern missionaries or evangelists, but who still worship the true God, and have ever since they descended from... whoever it was they descended from. Somewhere along the way, during Old Testament times, they migrated to wherever they live now, and still carry on the same faith. I have read many stories of people groups such as these.

I am not so sure of that. Many people do not have an effective Christian witness, whether it is because nobody takes the time, or because they live in mainly Muslim communities. And for many who have had the Gospel told to them, they do not actually hear the Gospel, because between it and them is a wall of things - church structure, freedom of women, pork eating, seeming lack of devotion among Christians, corruption in the church, and the list goes on. They first associate these things with Christianity, find them unacceptable, and therefore find Christianity unacceptable and reject it having never actually listened to the Gospel. It is not their prerogative to jump this barrier - it is so deeply and subconsciously ingrained in their culture that they will never do it - it is ours to remove it, or at least help them over it.

 

I am well aware of what Jesus said. You yourself referred to Gentiles who would be saved; in other words, are not yet. I refer to Muslims who will be saved but are not yet.