Have you studied Islam?

When a Gentile became a Christian, he became one of Christ's sheep--a Christian. When a Muslim converts to Christianity and becomes one of the sheep of Christ, he forsakes Islam and becomes a Christian. He is no longer a Muslim. There are no Christians among Muslims. If they are Christians, they are not Muslims. You cannot be adherents to both.
DHK

 

you're preaching to the converted, hun

 

My advice when coming to America, become an American, and leave behind all of your former culture behind! Also become a born again christian, so that you are ready to meet your creator at the time of rature.
This probably makes no sense, but bah humm bug on multi-culturism, we need to blend like the immigrants of old did, not split up in to smaller divided groups and fight!
My advice is don't come to America, we're much too crowded now.

 

Question for all:

If you worship the God of Abraham, and over time, your worship becomes flawed due to outside influences, are you now worshipping a false God, or are you worshipping the God of Abraham incorrectly?

 

Where do you think the crescent moon on all Islamic symbols comes from?

The early Muslim community did not have a symbol. During the time of Muhammad, Arabic armies and caravans flew simple solid-colored flags (generally black, green, or white) for identification purposes. In later generations, the Muslim leaders continued to use a simple black, white, or green flag with no markings, writing, or symbolism on it.

It wasn't until the Ottoman Empire that the crescent moon and star became affiliated with the Muslim world. When the Turks conquered Constantinople (Istanbul) in 1453, they adopted the city's existing flag and symbol. Legend holds that the founder of the Ottoman Empire, Osman, often had a mental picture of the crescent moon stretching from one end of the earth to the other, so he used crescent as the symbol of his dynasty. There is speculation that the five points on the star represent the five pillars of Islam, but this is pure conjecture. The five points were not standard on the Ottoman flags, and is still not standard on flags used in the Muslim world today.

For hundreds of years, the Ottoman Empire ruled over the Muslim world. After centuries of battle with Christian Europe, the symbols of this empire became linked in people's minds with the faith of Islam as a whole.

Many Muslims reject using the crescent moon as a symbol of Islam. The faith of Islam has historically had no symbol, and many Muslims refuse to accept what to them is essentially an ancient secular icon. It is certainly not in uniform use among Muslims.

 

I would say it has to do with how serious the change is. If it changes why we do something, what is considered right or wrong, or if it changes the the identity of Jesus Christ, then I'd have to say they are worshipping a false God.

[ November 22, 2002, 01:15 PM: Message edited by: Tuor ]

 

1. He believes that Christ was only a prophet and not God incarnate.
True, though Koran states that Jesus was highly blessed and favored.

2. He believes that if Christ is to be called the Son of God, then he must have been born out of a sexual union between God and his wife.
A confusion on the part of many Muslims arises when they believe Christians affirm some sexual union between God and Mary in the production of the Son, Jesus. Muslims are right to object to such a belief (actually promoted by early leaders of the Mormon Church), but Christians affirm no such thing. In fact, both the Bible (Matt 1:23; Luke 1:34) and the Quran (Sura 3:45-47) affirm the virgin birth of Jesus.

3. He believes that Christ never died, and thus never arose from the dead.
True. The belief is that Christ was taken directly to Heaven at the Crucifixion. The Koran reads: They (the Jews) said boastfully, "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of God" - but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them... no, God raised him up unto Himself. (Sura 4:157-158; cf. 3:54)

4. He believes that there is one that is greater than Christ and that is Mohammed.
Not true. Mohammed is not considered greater than Christ. Mohammed is a man, imperfect. Being the "seal of the prophets", it is believed that no other prophets have been sent after Mohammed.

5. He does not believe that Christ is the second person of the trinity, nor does believe in a triune Godhead.
Muslims often understand the Christian doctrine of the Trinity to be a belief in three gods. Obviously, orthodox Christians affirm a belief in only one true God. Such an affirmation is essential to biblical faith, and is affirmed in both testaments. However, if the Muslim view was promoted incorrectly by us, then they would be right to object.

 

I would say it has to do with how serious the change is. If it changes why we do something, what is considered right or wrong, or if it changes the the identity of Jesus Christ, then I'd have to say they are worshipping a false God.</font>[/QUOTE]The biggest reason I ask has not as much to do with non-christian beliefs as it does our own, and how often I think we've modified our beliefs in favor of our understanding of the NT, while abandoning some core beliefs of the OT. I wonder if, when doing so, God forgives our actions as simple human imperfection and limited ability, or if our human error is a falsehood just as severe as in those non-christians we accuse. But I suppose that's a topic for a different thread.

[ November 22, 2002, 01:50 PM: Message edited by: Johnv ]

 

Which topics would those be?

 

this is not something that is possible, you do not just leave your culture. it is something that's part of you since the day you are born until the day you die. of course people adapt, but i don't believe that you can truly ever leave it behind, nor should you. there are many things that we can learn from other cultures, and they from us.

 

This is incorrect. Mohammed is considered the last and greatest prophet.

It is also claimed that the 'comforter' is a prophesy about Mohammed, and not a direct reference to the Holy Spirit.

In Christ,
jason

Edited to add:

I do believe Johnv's other points, however, are correct.

[ November 22, 2002, 03:38 PM: Message edited by: jasonW* ]

 

On point 1 - Leave your culture behind? The Spanish didn't do that in the 1400's. The first English and Dutch settlers didn't do that in the 1600's. The English founding fathers didn't do that in the 1700's. The Italians, Germans, and French didn't do that in the 1800's. The Hawaiians and Puerto Ricans didn't do that in the 1900's. If we had to all leave our cultures behind and stuck to the original culture, we'd all be Native American Indians.

On point 2 - Becoming a Christian. I hope you don't mean as a prerequisite for living in the US, do you? That goes against the very purpose of why this country was first settled.

On point 3 - On point 3 - Humbug on multiculturalism. Hmmm... like hamburgers (german), sandwiches (english), hot dogs (also german), and croissants (french). That leaves pizza and tacos, both of which are american inventions. As far as blending like the immigrants of old did, they didn't.

On point 4 - America is too crowded? Naaaa, it's just a matter of distribution of resources. If you took the entire polulation of the US right now, and spread them out evenly in Texas, there would be two people per acre, and the rest of the US would be empty.

 

This is not true. This is deliberate misconstrual of the facts on the part of the mulvis in Islamic lands. They don't wan't their people to know the truth. Thus they deliberately misrepresent Christianity. This has nothing to do with Mormon missionaries or the Mormon Church. No Christian has ever assumed such such a diabolical view. I personally have witnessed to many Muslims. It is their own perverted logic that leads them to believe this way, plus what they have been indoctrinated from their teachers.
DHK

 

Again this is a true statement. Their "Kalmah," or Creed, which they recite daily, reads something like this: "There is only one God, and Mohammed is his prophet." In Pakistan there is a defamation law whch reads: "that if any person should defame the name of Mohammed in any way and be found guilty, he should suffer the death penalty." Ultimately that law could lead to preaching on John 14:6, that Jesus is the Only Way to Heaven, and thus Mohammed is not the way--a defamation of Mohammed--and a great persecution of Christians. They haven't takent it to that extreme yet, but they could. Even now many Christians languish in prison unjustly charged under that law. Mohammed is indeed treated greater that Christ. He is the last and greatest of all the prophets, and treated as if he were God himself. They will die for the name of Mohammed.
DHK

 

Why do you defend the Muslim and slander Christians? The Mulvis, that is the Muslim priests deliberately misconstrue the facts of Christianity to keep their people in darkness. The Muslim view was never promoted incorrectly by us. Where are you getting this from? It is promoted from their own Koran and their own teachers.
DHK

 

That seems like a bit of speculation to me, but regardless of where people get that conception, (hehe, no pun intended) they have it. It's because of things like this that I think we would do well to be careful with our wording when speaking to Muslims. Instead of saying Jesus Christ, we'd be better to say Jesus the Messiah, or even better, Isa, which is a name they are familiar with and is not associated with things that offend them. As a sidenote, I sure hope you don't have the same derogatory attitude toward Muslims when you talk to them as you do here talking about them.

 

you're preaching to the converted, hun </font>[/QUOTE]The statement that Jesus made when he said, I have other sheep not of this fold, was a prophetic statement, which you agreed was speaking of the Gentiles that would yet be saved after His death. The key here is that it was a prophetic statement. He was not speaking of Gentiles already saved, but Gentiles that were to be saved, such as Cornelius. When a missionary goes to an Islamic land he preaches to the lost--the Muslims. When the become saved, they become Christians, the sheep of Christ. They are no longer Muslims. You cannot be adherents of both religions. This is not a difficult concept to grasp. You cannot hold to Islamic beliefs and be a Christian at the same time. That is an impossibility.
DHK

 

Ahh, I see where we may be getting confused. Okay, I don't think that the Christian view has been promoted incorrectly, and probably Johnv doesn't either, and nobody is slandering Christians, so calm down. We do promote Christianity in a way that we understand to be correct, but the error happens in interpretation. Between you sending a message and someone else receiving it, many many things happen. People of your own culture, religion, and background sometimes misunderstand you, and to a different culture, religion, AND background, more things get in the way of understanding. Most devout Muslims interpret what we say differently than we intended them to, for whatever reason. You suggest it's because they're deliberately misinformed, I suggest it's simply cultural. Whatever. But if you're trying to communicate something to someone, anyone, and they're not understanding it right, you'd be pretty stubborn to keep repeating the same thing over and over again. The best thing to do is find another way to communicate what's right, see if they understand you right. If not, find another way. Keep trying, it will take a while.

 

I can't tell, are you suggesting that I think this? You said this before and I suggested that I am quite in agreement with that. You do not need to explain basic theological concepts to me; I have a brain and I know how to use it.