Still, MB, denial and no discussion. Did you answer the question, can the word be translated as anything other than made? And from my side of the street, I am not proposing to change the bible, but to correct a mistranslation, thus unchanging the Bible. And everyone rightly dividing the word has that authority.
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He treated Christ to be sin
- Thread starter Van
- Start date
Not for me
You can add and subtract from scripture all you want to. Confusion is your bag. You will never convince me of it. A strong concordance does not make you a translator of scripture. "Treated" and "Made" are two different words and using "Treated" does not say the same thing to me.
MB
You can add and subtract from scripture all you want to. Confusion is your bag. You will never convince me of it. A strong concordance does not make you a translator of scripture. "Treated" and "Made" are two different words and using "Treated" does not say the same thing to me.
MB
Thanks for agreeing the word can be translated as something other than "made" provided the word fits with the context. Since treated, purposed, declared, appointed, dealt with, and designated all fit the context we are in green pastures.Poieo means to 'make' or to 'do.' Since 'do' makes no sense in 2 Corinthians 5:21, it looks as if we're stuck with 'make.'
Clarity of meaning is my bag. Not adding bogus doctrine to scripture is my bag. No one said I was a trained translator, but I do know the difference from a strong concordance and an Exhaustive concordance.
And to repeat, using personal incredulity as evidence is a logical fallacy.
To return to topic How did our immutable God's holiness become sin without loss of immutability. I think Christ was only treated as sin, when He became our sin sacrifice. That snatches clarity from the jaws of confusion.
I guess Van knows better on this issue than the Holy Spirit did when He inspired that word to us!Poieo means to 'make' or to 'do.' Since 'do' makes no sense in 2 Corinthians 5:21, it looks as if we're stuck with 'make.'
I do not place any trust in what you have to say Van. The more you place on the board makes it seem a wise idea to discount what you say. Your ideas and mine are not the same. Let's just agree to disagreeClarity of meaning is my bag. Not adding bogus doctrine to scripture is my bag. No one said I was a trained translator, but I do know the difference from a strong concordance and an Exhaustive concordance.
And to repeat, using personal incredulity as evidence is a logical fallacy.
To return to topic How did our immutable God's holiness become sin without loss of immutability. I think Christ was only treated as sin, when He became our sin sacrifice. That snatches clarity from the jaws of confusion.
MB
Against the man arguments are logical fallacies. But they are favored by those with nothing to say.
What is the baptist view on the priesthood of believers?
How did our immutable God's holiness become sin without loss of immutability. I think Christ was only treated as sin, when He became our sin sacrifice.
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Y1, you once again did not answer the question. You seem to have no idea what the priesthood of believers means. So how do you claim bible study is beyond the authority of believers. And does not bible study include comparing translations and word meanings and doing our best to rightly divide the word?
Thread summary:
The claim our immutable holy God was made to be sin creates a theological dilemma.
The traditional translation choice for the passage (NASB) has:
2 Corinthians 5: 20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. 21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
But the dilemma is resolved if the word translated as "made" is translated as "treated."
Thus
20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. 21 He treated Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
The claim our immutable holy God was made to be sin creates a theological dilemma.
The traditional translation choice for the passage (NASB) has:
2 Corinthians 5: 20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. 21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
But the dilemma is resolved if the word translated as "made" is translated as "treated."
Thus
20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. 21 He treated Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
Gup20
Active Member
once you properly undrerstand how salvation works... the mechanics of it... you understand the necessity, simplicity, and beauty of the notion that Christ literally became sin (was imputed sin, was credited with sin, had our sin laid upon him, was clothed in our sin, however you want to think of it). At some LITERAL point, in order for God to see us as righteous (we have no problem believing that) He had to also see Christ as full of sin. That is the nature of the great exchange.
He made him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf that we might become the righteousness of God.
Christ is clothed, credited, seen by God as being our sin and we are clothed, credited, seen by God as Christ's righteousness.
Here is why; the mechanics of salvation require it. Here is how salvation actually works: Adam sins and brings a corporate judgement upon all the universe (God cursed the world with death). That curse of death persists. It is a just judgement because no one in history can live a sinless life. Abraham is chosen by God... God Himself preaches the gospel of Jesus Christ to Abraham, and when Abraham believes the Gospel of Jesus Christ, God credits him with righteousness. God then promises that the righteousness He gave him would be an everlasting inheritance by all of Abraham's descendants. However, God doesn't mean the physical, literal heirs, but the spiritual heirs... those with the same faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ that Abraham had. All that is required now is to wait for Christ to come and redeem (or exchange) his life (his righteousness) for our sin. Jesus comes to earth and lives a sinless life. He dies for us in the great atoning exchange. Jesus has a 1:1 exchange; Abraham's sin for Jesus' righteousness. This 1:1 exchange is just, and it was Christ's to give. He laid down his life/righteousness willingly. Jesus also knew of God's plan. He had faith in God's promise. God intended to multiply Christ's righteousness to the many through INHERITANCE... promising Abraham that all of his descendants would inherit that righteousness. Even Jesus allowed himself to be raised from the dead through the covenant of inheritance. Jesus himself was the first person raised from the dead by the eternal covenant. Jesus does not raise himself by his own power or righteousness... he waits for and relies upon God the Father to raise him through the covenant or promise He made with Abraham. Jesus becomes the first raised from the dead by grace through faith in the gospel. Had he used his own power or righteousness to resurrect, there would be none available for us! He proves the covenant valid... and he is first so as to have preeminence. There is now a second byproduct; because 1 righteous person exists, Adam's original, corporate judgement of death is no longer just. The corporate judgement must be repealed in lieu of individual judgments. All human beings (saved and unsaved) are resurrected from the dead in order to face individual judgement. Those who do not have faith in the gospel have a second death, and those who do have faith in the gospel inherit Christ's righteousness to them for the individual judgement.
There is a great powerful truth in this. It means we can have 100% confidence that faith in the gospel works because that is how Jesus was raised from the dead. He didn't rely upon his deity ... he allowed himself to take on the sin of the world (all the while knowing he'd inherit his own righteousness back to himself through God's promise to Abraham) and die in our sin. In other words, he died in the same, sin-filled condition as any of us would... and had the same chance of eternal life as all of us do. Of course he knew the end-game.
He made him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf that we might become the righteousness of God.
Christ is clothed, credited, seen by God as being our sin and we are clothed, credited, seen by God as Christ's righteousness.
Here is why; the mechanics of salvation require it. Here is how salvation actually works: Adam sins and brings a corporate judgement upon all the universe (God cursed the world with death). That curse of death persists. It is a just judgement because no one in history can live a sinless life. Abraham is chosen by God... God Himself preaches the gospel of Jesus Christ to Abraham, and when Abraham believes the Gospel of Jesus Christ, God credits him with righteousness. God then promises that the righteousness He gave him would be an everlasting inheritance by all of Abraham's descendants. However, God doesn't mean the physical, literal heirs, but the spiritual heirs... those with the same faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ that Abraham had. All that is required now is to wait for Christ to come and redeem (or exchange) his life (his righteousness) for our sin. Jesus comes to earth and lives a sinless life. He dies for us in the great atoning exchange. Jesus has a 1:1 exchange; Abraham's sin for Jesus' righteousness. This 1:1 exchange is just, and it was Christ's to give. He laid down his life/righteousness willingly. Jesus also knew of God's plan. He had faith in God's promise. God intended to multiply Christ's righteousness to the many through INHERITANCE... promising Abraham that all of his descendants would inherit that righteousness. Even Jesus allowed himself to be raised from the dead through the covenant of inheritance. Jesus himself was the first person raised from the dead by the eternal covenant. Jesus does not raise himself by his own power or righteousness... he waits for and relies upon God the Father to raise him through the covenant or promise He made with Abraham. Jesus becomes the first raised from the dead by grace through faith in the gospel. Had he used his own power or righteousness to resurrect, there would be none available for us! He proves the covenant valid... and he is first so as to have preeminence. There is now a second byproduct; because 1 righteous person exists, Adam's original, corporate judgement of death is no longer just. The corporate judgement must be repealed in lieu of individual judgments. All human beings (saved and unsaved) are resurrected from the dead in order to face individual judgement. Those who do not have faith in the gospel have a second death, and those who do have faith in the gospel inherit Christ's righteousness to them for the individual judgement.
There is a great powerful truth in this. It means we can have 100% confidence that faith in the gospel works because that is how Jesus was raised from the dead. He didn't rely upon his deity ... he allowed himself to take on the sin of the world (all the while knowing he'd inherit his own righteousness back to himself through God's promise to Abraham) and die in our sin. In other words, he died in the same, sin-filled condition as any of us would... and had the same chance of eternal life as all of us do. Of course he knew the end-game.
If Jesus became Abraham's or the World's sin, was He still Holy?
If death did not exist before Adam sinned, what happened to the plants that he ate"
The curse (or wages) of sin (death) still exists, and unforgiven sinners face the second death.
What verses says God preached the gospel of Christ, His birth, life, death and resurrection, to Abraham while Abraham was still living his physical life?
God did not credit Abraham with righteousness, He credited Abraham's faith as righteousness.
Only those whose individual faith is credited by God as righteousness, are transferred into Christ and are made righteous. Only those await our adoption in glorified bodies at Christ's second coming.
The Lamb of God takes away the sin of the world, not just Abraham's.
We do not inherit righteousness, we are made righteous, the circumcision of Christ.
If death did not exist before Adam sinned, what happened to the plants that he ate"
The curse (or wages) of sin (death) still exists, and unforgiven sinners face the second death.
What verses says God preached the gospel of Christ, His birth, life, death and resurrection, to Abraham while Abraham was still living his physical life?
God did not credit Abraham with righteousness, He credited Abraham's faith as righteousness.
Only those whose individual faith is credited by God as righteousness, are transferred into Christ and are made righteous. Only those await our adoption in glorified bodies at Christ's second coming.
The Lamb of God takes away the sin of the world, not just Abraham's.
We do not inherit righteousness, we are made righteous, the circumcision of Christ.
Gup20
Active Member
Yes. Just as the priest would sacrifice the lamb, placing his hand on the head to transfer the sin of the nation or individual to it... the lamb was an acceptable substitution only if it was without spot or blemish... but prior to death it would have the sin of the person making the guilt offering transferred onto it. This transference didn't disqualify the lamb... it only had to be spotless until the ritual started. The transference was the lamb's purpose. Obviously, once it's blood began to drain, it wouldn't be spotless or without blemish anymore... that didn't disqualify that lamb mid-sacrifice.
The Bible says life is in the blood. Plants don't have blood. The Bible uses the term "Nephesh Keyyah" when referring to soulish life. It never once uses this term in reference to plants... only to people and animals. We see this also in the fact that God gave Adam and Eve every green thing to eat. This demonstrates that the purpose of plants is to act as biological machinery, and they do not have "life" as the Bible defines it.
I'm not understanding your question.
Gal 3:6-9 NASB 6 Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. 7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. 8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, [saying,] "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU." 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.
26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.
The gospel is much more simple than we make it. Paul says here that God's statement "all the nations will be blessed in you" contained the full gospel of Jesus Christ. How we do we know it was talking about Jesus Christ? Paul says so 7 verses later:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.
Gal 3:16 NASB 16 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, "And to seeds," as [referring] to many, but [rather] to one, "And to your seed," that is, Christ.
Of course, this is talking about the very verse Paul just quoted in Gal 3:6... Genesis 15:
Gen 15:5-6 KJV 5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be. 6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
Gen 17:7 KJV 7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
Gen 17:7 KJV 7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
So according to Galatians 3:8, God himself preached the gospel to Abraham when he said "so shall thy seed be" and God was specifically talking about one seed - Jesus Christ (Gal 3:16). So when God preached the gospel of Jesus Christ to Abraham, and Abraham believed, he was made righteous. We are considered the children of Abraham and qualified as heirs of the promise God gave Abraham in Genesis 17:7 that his descendants or seed would inherit that everlasting covenant.
So Abraham is literally the first saved (made righteous) by grace through faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ. Jesus confirms this in John 8:
Jhn 8:56 NASB 56 "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw [it] and was glad."
This adoption as children of Abraham is what is spoken of in Isaiah 54:1
Isa 54:1 NASB 1 "Shout for joy, O barren one, you who have borne no [child;] Break forth into joyful shouting and cry aloud, you who have not travailed; For the sons of the desolate one [will be] more numerous Than the sons of the married woman," says the LORD.
This is why God changes Abram's name to Abraham and calls him the "father of many nations" just before He promises those adopted descendants would inherit the everlasting covenant. That's the first 6 verses of Genesis 17!
Right.... but I can say "I paid for this merchandise" and someone could argue "no, your money paid for it." The semantics are a bit irrelevant. I agree, faith is the transaction medium in the salvation process. However, faith doesn't DIRECTLY qualify us for righteousness... that's a long held misconception. Abraham was the only one who ever obtained righteousness directly for his faith. The rest of us obtain righteousness indirectly by our faith in the gospel first qualifying us as the descendants of Abraham and then inheriting Christ's righteousness though our kinship with Abraham.
Luk 19:9 NASB 9 And Jesus said to him, "Today salvation has come to this house, because he, too, is a son of Abraham.
Hebrews 2:16
For assuredly He does not give help to angels, but He gives help to the descendant of Abraham.
Hebrews 2:16
For assuredly He does not give help to angels, but He gives help to the descendant of Abraham.
I agree.
I agree. I didn't say that only Abraham's sin was forgiven, but that Christ had a 1:1 exchange with Abraham. Then through inheritance, that righteousness is inherited by the millions of people who will be counted as the descendants of Abraham by having the same faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ that Abraham had.
Col 1:12 NASB
giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints in Light.
Eph 1:13-14 NASB
13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of [God's own] possession, to the praise of His glory.
Rom 8:15-17 NASB
15 For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!" 16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with [Him] so that we may also be glorified with [Him.]
giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints in Light.
Eph 1:13-14 NASB
13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of [God's own] possession, to the praise of His glory.
Rom 8:15-17 NASB
15 For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!" 16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with [Him] so that we may also be glorified with [Him.]
So the Lamb becomes sin and not spotless when covered in its blood. So at that point the Lamb is not holy. Sin and holiness are mutually exclusive. You can't have it both ways.
I accept your point, there seems to be no evidence that plants were considered to be alive. However many birds eat worms, creeping things, fish, and the like. Carnivores eat other animals. And then we have animals that died a long time ago.
To say part of the gospel, your seed will bless all nations, is the gospel of Christ, leaving out sin and His sacrifice is mistaken.
Again, Abraham was not made righteous, his faith was counted as righteousness. If he was righteous, why didn't Abraham go to heaven, to be present with the Lord? Why did all the OT saints have to wait to be made perfect?
We are made righteous, through the blood of the Lamb. Only after we are transferred into Christ, and undergo the circumcision of Christ, are we made righteous. Our inheritance comes from being children of God, born anew. So we are righteous in Christ spiritually before receiving our inheritance.
I accept your point, there seems to be no evidence that plants were considered to be alive. However many birds eat worms, creeping things, fish, and the like. Carnivores eat other animals. And then we have animals that died a long time ago.
To say part of the gospel, your seed will bless all nations, is the gospel of Christ, leaving out sin and His sacrifice is mistaken.
Again, Abraham was not made righteous, his faith was counted as righteousness. If he was righteous, why didn't Abraham go to heaven, to be present with the Lord? Why did all the OT saints have to wait to be made perfect?
We are made righteous, through the blood of the Lamb. Only after we are transferred into Christ, and undergo the circumcision of Christ, are we made righteous. Our inheritance comes from being children of God, born anew. So we are righteous in Christ spiritually before receiving our inheritance.
Gup20
Active Member
My point was to show that the Lamb was spotless when it was selected. The spotlessness is a qualification for the ritual to begin. However, once the ritual begins, obviously, changes occur to the lamb (changes in it's spotlessness) that do not disqualify it during the process.
Similarly, Jesus was without sin and just because he had the sin of the world laid upon him doesn't make him disqualified... it means he had already qualified and the ritual was in process. The fact that the transference occurred meant Jesus had already qualified as an acceptable sacrifice. The transference didn't disqualify him, it demonstrated he had already passed the test.
Isa 53:6
All of us like sheep have gone astray,
Each of us has turned to his own way;
But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all
To fall on Him.
All of us like sheep have gone astray,
Each of us has turned to his own way;
But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all
To fall on Him.
Indeed, and the implication is that predation didn't used to occur until after the fall. The original, created state was plants as food, but predation was the result of the fall... it was the result of sin and death. It was not part of the original created state.
Gen 1:30
and to every beast of the earth and to every bird of the sky and to every thing that moves on the earth which has life, I have given every green plant for food”; and it was so.
and to every beast of the earth and to every bird of the sky and to every thing that moves on the earth which has life, I have given every green plant for food”; and it was so.
Additionally, we know that one day, when death is destroyed, the lion will again lay down by the lamb.
Isa 65:25
“The wolf and the lamb will graze together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox; and dust will be the serpent’s food. They will do no evil or harm in all My holy mountain,” says the LORD.
“The wolf and the lamb will graze together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox; and dust will be the serpent’s food. They will do no evil or harm in all My holy mountain,” says the LORD.
God knew what HE meant when He said "all the nations will be blessed in you." In that short sentence contains all the gospel... or at least enough of it so that any who believe the gospel afterward are considered the "children of Abraham."
Sure, I see what you're saying. He was credited with righteousness, but not made fully righteous. Sure... the same as any Christian today is.
Abraham didn't and we won't receive our FULL inheritance of life until the resurrection. But Abraham is in heaven now. None could leave there (hell) until Jesus died and made atonement.
Eph 1:13-14 NASB
13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of [God's own] possession, to the praise of His glory.
Rom 4:9-13 NASB
9 Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, "FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." 10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised. 13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith.
13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of [God's own] possession, to the praise of His glory.
Rom 4:9-13 NASB
9 Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, "FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." 10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised. 13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith.
We, like Abraham, are credited with righteousness and are circumcised of the heart (sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit) as a pledge of the full inheritance yet to come at the resurrection.
I agree with all of this. Nothing here disagrees with anything I've been saying.
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Question?????
'And now, glorify me, Thou Father, with Thyself, with the glory that I had before the world was, with Thee; John 17:5 YLT
Talk to me about that immutable glory, Christ appears to have lost.
Did the Father, God, actually give him glory?
When?
Tell me how Christ could die? Father God, (told <the Word) Adam the day thou eat, dying thou dost die. Thou shall surely die.
Did Jesus of Nazareth, the Chris,t the Son of the Living God, the Word became < I know, no Greek. Does that mean from from then on, into forever? ) flesh, really die in our stead? Die, the penalty assigned to Adam, for our sins? How?
I need an answer from all the Greek guys on that in bold. I would really like to know tour thoughts.
knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. Rom 6:9 NKJV 'And that He did raise him up out of the dead, no more to return to corruption, he hath said thus -- I will give to you the faithful kindnesses of David; wherefore also in another place he saith, Thou shalt not give Thy kind One to see corruption, for David, indeed, his own generation having served by the will of God, did fall asleep, and was added unto his fathers, and saw corruption, but he whom God did raise up, did not see corruption. Acts 13:34 - 37
Was the Word became flesh, born of the virgin Mary, subject to death and corruption or not?
Just how much did God so love the world? Did he send his Son, the Word made flesh, as immutable God? Did this Dead One, have to be raised from the dead ones, in order for there to be life, for anyone? 1 Cor 15:16-18