hearers/doers

[Iconoclast]

Findlay Edge wrote the following:

In spite of the fact that some members have attended Sunday school for five, ten, fifteen, or more years, there is an amazing lack of Bible knowledge even among those who are most regular in attendance. This is a matter of no little significance, for although the quality and depth of one’s spiritual life is not necessarily conditioned by his knowledge of the Bible, this knowledge does contribute to a more intelligent faith. The problem of securing results in Christian living is even more serious. Thus, the Sunday school class has tended to become a place where high Christian ideals are discussed. Too often, this study ends only in discussion without sufficient carry-over into daily life in the home, school, business, recreational activities, social activities, and other areas of experience[/QUOTE]

Do you believe this is still the case?
Are we hearers and not doers?
How do you personally strive to avoid this sinful neglect of obeying truth?

 

[convicted1]

Findlay Edge wrote the following:
In spite of the fact that some members have attended Sunday school for five, ten, fifteen, or more years, there is an amazing lack of Bible knowledge even among those who are most regular in attendance. This is a matter of no little significance, for although the quality and depth of one’s spiritual life is not necessarily conditioned by his knowledge of the Bible, this knowledge does contribute to a more intelligent faith. The problem of securing results in Christian living is even more serious. Thus, the Sunday school class has tended to become a place where high Christian ideals are discussed. Too often, this study ends only in discussion without sufficient carry-over into daily life in the home, school, business, recreational activities, social activities, and other areas of experience[/QUOTE]

Do you believe this is still the case?
Are we hearers and not doers?
How do you personally strive to avoid this sinful neglect of obeying truth?

These are some tough questions to give a truly adequate answers to. But I'll try.

Do you believe this is still the case?

Now, I am not painting with a broad brush, so please do not take this as me singling out anyone. The night I was saved, I went that same morning and told mom and dad what God had done for me. Dad told me the more I put into it, the more I would get out of it. He wasn't meaning a work based salvation, but the more you study, the more God will show you. The more you pray, the more things you can see happen. The more you help others, the more blessings you get, etc. So if you don't stick your nose in the bible, don't expect to know very much.

Are we hearers and not doers?

To a certain extent, this "might" be true. I have heard a few sermons from a few different preachers that preached, "When you find a Brother in a fault, you which are spiritual, restore such a one....." But when the times come that they were confronted with this very scenario, they took the broom and swept them out the door. It is easier to preach it than to live it for some it seems. If you preach it, you better live it.

How do you personally strive to avoid this sinful neglect of obeying truth?

The only way I know how; I take it to the Lord in prayer. I do my very best to ask the Lord's forgiveness every morning when I lay down. I even say that if I have done something that was unpleasing to Him, and I am not aware of it, please forgive me. If we are faithful to confess our sins, He is just to forgive our sins....or something close to that.

 

[Iconoclast]

These are some tough questions to give a truly adequate answers to. But I'll try.

Do you believe this is still the case?

Now, I am not painting with a broad brush, so please do not take this as me singling out anyone. The night I was saved, I went that same morning and told mom and dad what God had done for me. Dad told me the more I put into it, the more I would get out of it. He wasn't meaning a work based salvation, but the more you study, the more God will show you. The more you pray, the more things you can see happen. The more you help others, the more blessings you get, etc. So if you don't stick your nose in the bible, don't expect to know very much.

Are we hearers and not doers?

To a certain extent, this "might" be true. I have heard a few sermons from a few different preachers that preached, "When you find a Brother in a fault, you which are spiritual, restore such a one....." But when the times come that they were confronted with this very scenario, they took the broom and swept them out the door. It is easier to preach it than to live it for some it seems. If you preach it, you better live it.

How do you personally strive to avoid this sinful neglect of obeying truth?

The only way I know how; I take it to the Lord in prayer. I do my very best to ask the Lord's forgiveness every morning when I lay down. I even say that if I have done something that was unpleasing to Him, and I am not aware of it, please forgive me. If we are faithful to confess our sins, He is just to forgive our sins....or something close to that.

Solid post Willis.....sounds like your Dad gave you some good instruction!

 

[Luke2427]

Findlay Edge wrote the following:

In spite of the fact that some members have attended Sunday school for five, ten, fifteen, or more years, there is an amazing lack of Bible knowledge even among those who are most regular in attendance. This is a matter of no little significance, for although the quality and depth of one’s spiritual life is not necessarily conditioned by his knowledge of the Bible, this knowledge does contribute to a more intelligent faith. The problem of securing results in Christian living is even more serious. Thus, the Sunday school class has tended to become a place where high Christian ideals are discussed. Too often, this study ends only in discussion without sufficient carry-over into daily life in the home, school, business, recreational activities, social activities, and other areas of experience[/QUOTE]

Do you believe this is still the case?
Are we hearers and not doers?
How do you personally strive to avoid this sinful neglect of obeying truth?

This is the case.

There is an evil disdain for learning in our religious culture. Ignorance is praised, theology is demeaned, preachers do little real exposition and theological training, experience rather than exposition is the premium in the pulpit, the deep things of God are replaced by warm and fuzzy feel good stories and our people perish for lack of knowledge.

This is a blatant and demonic violation of the Greatest Commandment which is in part to "Love the Lord your God with all your... mind."

Simplicity is praised and scholarship is disdained and this is great wickedness. The only things we ought to be simple about are those things which concern evil. We ought to be hungry for the MEAT of the Word of God and we ought to leave the elementary doctrines and press on toward perfection.

When a man says, "I am no bible scholar..." i wish he would just stop there and shut his mouth and not say another thing. If he is not then he ought to become one post haste. But instead he wears his biblical and theological and church historical ignorance like a badge of honor.

This is one of, if not THE, greatest evils of our culture. And it does not come from the liberals- it comes most from those who call themselves theologically conservative.

 

[Iconoclast]

luke24

When a man says, "I am no bible scholar..." i wish he would just stop there and shut his mouth and not say another thing. If he is not then he ought to become one post haste. But instead he wears his biblical and theological and church historical ignorance like a badge of honor.

THis is a great sin,and brings down the members of the church.
By despising doctrine ,how can a person carry out the duty to edify others
in a God gloryifying manner.

Some reject the confessions despising godly brothers who have gone before us. I think it is sinful pride...but they do it under the guise of humility....

 

[psalms109:31]

Hearers and doers

As long as men don't mold God's word into their doctrine and make that their God and glorify God of their own making.

We all are growing and maturing. Things change when it isn't consistent with every word that comes from the mouth of God.

That the Holy Spirit within us does not want to settle with mans opinions, but the truth from the word of God.

When it comes to doctrine I always refer to my signature a word of a man that many can learn from, a book educated man.

 

[Winman]

luke24


THis is a great sin,and brings down the members of the church.
By despising doctrine ,how can a person carry out the duty to edify others
in a God gloryifying manner.

Some reject the confessions despising godly brothers who have gone before us. I think it is sinful pride...but they do it under the guise of humility....

And some reject the confessions because they HAVE studied the scriptures and find the confessions to be error.

 

[Amy.G]

This is the case.

There is an evil disdain for learning in our religious culture. Ignorance is praised, theology is demeaned, preachers do little real exposition and theological training, experience rather than exposition is the premium in the pulpit, the deep things of God are replaced by warm and fuzzy feel good stories and our people perish for lack of knowledge.

This is a blatant and demonic violation of the Greatest Commandment which is in part to "Love the Lord your God with all your... mind."

Simplicity is praised and scholarship is disdained and this is great wickedness. The only things we ought to be simple about are those things which concern evil. We ought to be hungry for the MEAT of the Word of God and we ought to leave the elementary doctrines and press on toward perfection.

When a man says, "I am no bible scholar..." i wish he would just stop there and shut his mouth and not say another thing. If he is not then he ought to become one post haste. But instead he wears his biblical and theological and church historical ignorance like a badge of honor.

This is one of, if not THE, greatest evils of our culture. And it does not come from the liberals- it comes most from those who call themselves theologically conservative.

Luke are you talking about pastors or everybody? Surely you don't mean that I cannot discuss scripture unless I'm a "scholar". Please clarify.

 

[preacher4truth]

Findlay Edge wrote the following:

In spite of the fact that some members have attended Sunday school for five, ten, fifteen, or more years, there is an amazing lack of Bible knowledge even among those who are most regular in attendance. This is a matter of no little significance, for although the quality and depth of one’s spiritual life is not necessarily conditioned by his knowledge of the Bible, this knowledge does contribute to a more intelligent faith. The problem of securing results in Christian living is even more serious. Thus, the Sunday school class has tended to become a place where high Christian ideals are discussed. Too often, this study ends only in discussion without sufficient carry-over into daily life in the home, school, business, recreational activities, social activities, and other areas of experience[/QUOTE]

Do you believe this is still the case?
Are we hearers and not doers?
How do you personally strive to avoid this sinful neglect of obeying truth?

Brother, of course, this still happens today.

Does this break your heart? It does mine.

People listen to the Word, then live by their own opinions, lean on their understanding as if Gods Word is an opinion.

On one forum, a person argued that Gods Word is really only His Opinion, not absolute truth transcending all things subjective.

 

[Skandelon]

We ought to be hungry for the MEAT of the Word of God and we ought to leave the elementary doctrines and press on toward perfection.

Luke, I'm not trying to nit-pick or be argumentative with this question. I'm honestly just wanting to understand what your perspective is when you say things like this as one who believes more "deterministically."

You say "we ought to be hungry for the MEAT of the Word" as if we are the one who control our desire to be hungry for such things, but you don't believe that, right?

I mean, in order for someone to be "hungry for the Meat of the Word," doesn't God have to make them hungry? Doesn't God have to make men have the desire to study His scripture and become the 'scholar?'

If so, then what is the point is rebuking those who don't when clearly they are just doing what God has caused them to desire? Why not instead, say, "God out to make us more hungry for the MEAT of the Word?"

Again, I just honestly want to know how your doctrine practically plays out in everyday life as you "challenge" and "rebuke" what others "ought" or "ought not" do?

 

[Iconoclast]

skan..
Working all week in the world,should naturally cause a hunger for the word.
It has a washing effect on us also eph5:26

Again, I just honestly want to know how your doctrine practically plays out in everyday life as you "challenge" and "rebuke" what others "ought" or "ought not" do?

for one thing, self examination must come first,followed closely by a bridled tongue, edifying speech....we are to owe no man anything.

winman.....God has given pastors and teachers to help equip the saints, do not despise them. You do not like the scripturally based confessions?
Have you ever tried to write your own confession of faith and improve on what they have written?
If someone showed up to your church and asked you to define those questions,do you think you could do a better job than they did?
The confessions have a small amount of wiggle room...but not too much.Are you sure it is not you who are in error?

Many speak about...man made doctrine....However...all doctrine is God given if we have rightly understood the verses. Keep in mind it is not given that everyone will come to true doctrine.

p4t,

Brother, of course, this still happens today.

Does this break your heart? It does mine.

People listen to the Word, then live by their own opinions, lean on their understanding as if Gods Word is an opinion.

this is sad....like a drowning man pushing away those trying to help...

5Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

6In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

 

[Luke2427]

Luke are you talking about pastors or everybody? Surely you don't mean that I cannot discuss scripture unless I'm a "scholar". Please clarify.

I am not talking about discussing doctrine- I am talking about proclaiming doctrine- and it doesn't have to be behind a pulpit. It can be at work or on baptistboard.

Any time you have the opportunity to influence anybody concerning the deep things of God and you really are not qualified and yet you take that opportunity- it is great wickedness.

And every child of God ought to leave the elementary things and press on toward perfection. Every Christian ought to bury his face in Scripture and seek the aid of many more gifted than themselves. Every Christian OUGHT to be doing their dead level best to become a bible scholar.

Until they do they ought to keep silent because there are always people even more ignorant than the unlearned who will think that the unlearned know what they are talking about. These ignorant people will be led astray by someone as blind as they are.

So the blind should not be leading the blind. The blind ought to be led- period.

 

[Luke2427]

Luke, I'm not trying to nit-pick or be argumentative with this question. I'm honestly just wanting to understand what your perspective is when you say things like this as one who believes more "deterministically."

You say "we ought to be hungry for the MEAT of the Word" as if we are the one who control our desire to be hungry for such things, but you don't believe that, right?

I mean, in order for someone to be "hungry for the Meat of the Word," doesn't God have to make them hungry? Doesn't God have to make men have the desire to study His scripture and become the 'scholar?'

If so, then what is the point is rebuking those who don't when clearly they are just doing what God has caused them to desire? Why not instead, say, "God out to make us more hungry for the MEAT of the Word?"

Again, I just honestly want to know how your doctrine practically plays out in everyday life as you "challenge" and "rebuke" what others "ought" or "ought not" do?

Start a thread and I will answer you. Otherwise have the courtesy not to highjack this one.

 

[Robert Snow]

Some people put way too much emphasis on being a Christian scholar. I think one of the biggest problems the church faces is turning away from the simplicity of the Gospel and putting too much faith in what some so-called scholar thinks.

 

[Luke2427]

The Greatest Commandment: "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, MIND and strength."

To not be a scholar of the Word of God is to be guilty of the worst crime a man can ever commit- to break the GREATEST commandment.

Only evil people take our duty to love God with all our mind lightly.

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they should know thee the only true God, and him whom thou didst send, even Jesus Christ.

People who take the KNOWLEDGE of God lightly, yea the DEEP THINGS of God put the souls of men in peril. Because eternal life comes by a knowledge of God.

The Gospel is not simple. It is like an iceberg. It can make a great impact with the little bit visible on the surface. But there is a massive and incalculable girth to it under the surface.

To call it simple is to insult it greatly. What we must know of it in order to be saved may indeed be a VERY small portion of it, but it is not in itself a simple thing.

Anyone who wants to avoid the wondrously deep things of God is dangerous.

Simplicity concerning the things of God is the SOURCE of apostacy in any age.

 

[freeatlast]

Findlay Edge wrote the following:

In spite of the fact that some members have attended Sunday school for five, ten, fifteen, or more years, there is an amazing lack of Bible knowledge even among those who are most regular in attendance. This is a matter of no little significance, for although the quality and depth of one’s spiritual life is not necessarily conditioned by his knowledge of the Bible, this knowledge does contribute to a more intelligent faith. The problem of securing results in Christian living is even more serious. Thus, the Sunday school class has tended to become a place where high Christian ideals are discussed. Too often, this study ends only in discussion without sufficient carry-over into daily life in the home, school, business, recreational activities, social activities, and other areas of experience[/QUOTE]

Do you believe this is still the case?
Are we hearers and not doers?
How do you personally strive to avoid this sinful neglect of obeying truth?

I absolutely agree with this. As for me I do not rely on Sunday school or even church to teach me the things of God as most are what is described above holding morning social sessions and sermonettes for Christianettes. So for me I have to seek to know the word with understanding and apply it as it is spiritually meant with a constant open ear to hear what those of greater maturity hold on the meaning of scripture.

 

[preacher4truth]

The Greatest Commandment: "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, MIND and strength."

To not be a scholar of the Word of God is to be guilty of the worst crime a man can ever commit- to break the GREATEST commandment.

Only evil people take our duty to love God with all our mind lightly.

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they should know thee the only true God, and him whom thou didst send, even Jesus Christ.

People who take the KNOWLEDGE of God lightly, yea the DEEP THINGS of God put the souls of men in peril. Because eternal life comes by a knowledge of God.

The Gospel is not simple. It is like an iceberg. It can make a great impact with the little bit visible on the surface. But there is a massive and incalculable girth to it under the surface.

To call it simple is to insult it greatly. What we must know of it in order to be saved may indeed be a VERY small portion of it, but it is not in itself a simple thing.

Anyone who wants to avoid the wondrously deep things of God is dangerous.

Simplicity concerning the things of God is the SOURCE of apostacy in any age.

A view of Holy God, Theology and Scripture as being "simple" is an unfortunate view. These things are not simple. This view sends one toward a simple theology, one that is raw and lacks depth. Typically those who embrace this cast off as trivial any deeper thought from those devoted to knowing God through study, seeking after Gods Glory and knowing Him in a greater way. This attitude is contrary to the attitude of 1 Timothy 5:17; "The elders who rule well are to be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who work hard at preaching and teaching." Those devoted to teaching and preaching and study are to receive not only honor, but double honor (KJV), not the cynicism seen within this thread toward such.


There is usually a proof-text that comes along with this to prove that being simple is akin to godliness and a supposedly "more noble Christianity." This proof-text is 2 Corinthians 11:3; "But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ."

The word translated "simplicity" doesn't mean what this proof-text is used to prove, as it isn't the typical meaning of simple, or "easy to understand." To use this text to color all things God and all things Theological as simple is doing disservice to God and His Glory.

The reason people think it is easy to understand (Scriptures) is because they haven't really studied it out much, generally the study is a topical proof-text journey with not much weight. This is why it is difficult to progress in dialogue and debate as too many are spinning their wheels theologically on some proof-texts and not advancing in knowledge as commanded; 2 Peter 3:18; "but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen."

The statement that it (Bible, God, Theology) is simple reinforces Iconoclasts OP of the problem with church-goers lacking any real devotion and great knowledge of the Scriptures. There is not much growing going on, most have just enough verses tucked away, thinking they know what they mean, and are generally using them as weapons, not light.

- Peace

 

[Winman]

Prov 26:12 Seest thou a man wise in his own conceit? there is more hope of a fool than of him.

Prov 3:7 Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil.

Rom 12:16 Be of the same mind one toward another. Mind not high things, but condescend to men of low estate. Be not wise in your own conceits.

1 Cor 3:20 And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.

2 Tim 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

 

[Skandelon]

Start a thread and I will answer you. Otherwise have the courtesy not to highjack this one.

I think my question has very much to do with the question of the OP because it relates to the practical application (doing) of our theology. It has as much to do with the OP as your comments regarding scholarship. Plus, Icon, who started the thread, replied without objection, so I'm not sure what the problem is?

 

[Skandelon]

skan..
Working all week in the world,should naturally cause a hunger for the word.
It has a washing effect on us also eph5:26

Can you expound on this statement? What do you mean by "naturally?" Isn't that just another way of saying "God must do it," which is what I was suggesting is your (Luke's) view?