hearers/doers

[preacher4truth]

I cannot believe what I just read. If I am not a bible scholar, I am just unlearned and need to keep silent??

Maybe with all your education you forgot that Christ commanded all Christians to spread the gospel. How can I do that if I must remain silent? Jesus didn't say get your doctorate in theology and THEN go spread the gospel!

When you are witnessing to a dying person, drug addict, prison inmate or regular sinner on the street, they do not care about your credentials. They need God's love and our job is to tell them about our Savior, Jesus Christ and how He died for them. I do not need a phd to tell them about the salvation that is freely offered to them in Christ OR share my own testimony of salvation with them.

Keep silent? That is the death of Christianity.

:applause: :thumbsup:

 

[quantumfaith]

Cool. Don't lump me automatically in with the group you seek to rebuke. To do so is unwarranted.

Granted. :saint::saint:

 

[quantumfaith]

I cannot believe what I just read. If I am not a bible scholar, I am just unlearned and need to keep silent??

Maybe with all your education you forgot that Christ commanded all Christians to spread the gospel. How can I do that if I must remain silent? Jesus didn't say get your doctorate in theology and THEN go spread the gospel!

When you are witnessing to a dying person, drug addict, prison inmate or regular sinner on the street, they do not care about your credentials. They need God's love and our job is to tell them about our Savior, Jesus Christ and how He died for them. I do not need a phd to tell them about the salvation that is freely offered to them in Christ OR share my own testimony of salvation with them.

Keep silent? That is the death of Christianity.

:applause::applause::applause:

 

[DHK]

Keep silent? That is the death of Christianity.

But Amy, aren't women "to keep silent in the church"? :smilewinkgrin:

 

[Amy.G]

But Amy, aren't women "to keep silent in the church"? :smilewinkgrin:

:laugh:

But DHK, (in my best southern drawl) we ain't in church! :tongue3:

 

[DHK]

:laugh:

But DHK, (in my best southern drawl) we ain't in church! :tongue3:

oh, okay.
Permission to speak is granted.

 

[Iconoclast]

Findlay Edge wrote the following:


I absolutely agree with this. As for me I do not rely on Sunday school or even church to teach me the things of God as most are what is described above holding morning social sessions and sermonettes for Christianettes. So for me I have to seek to know the word with understanding and apply it as it is spiritually meant with a constant open ear to hear what those of greater maturity hold on the meaning of scripture.

:applause::thumbsup: The church needs to be the church....good post

 

[Amy.G]

:applause::thumbsup: The church needs to be the church....good post

Not all SS classes are teaching baby food. In my class we go verse by verse and actually study the word. :thumbsup:

 

[Iconoclast]

A view of Holy God, Theology and Scripture as being "simple" is an unfortunate view. These things are not simple. This view sends one toward a simple theology, one that is raw and lacks depth. Typically those who embrace this cast off as trivial any deeper thought from those devoted to knowing God through study, seeking after Gods Glory and knowing Him in a greater way. This attitude is contrary to the attitude of 1 Timothy 5:17; "The elders who rule well are to be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who work hard at preaching and teaching." Those devoted to teaching and preaching and study are to receive not only honor, but double honor (KJV), not the cynicism seen within this thread toward such.


There is usually a proof-text that comes along with this to prove that being simple is akin to godliness and a supposedly "more noble Christianity." This proof-text is 2 Corinthians 11:3; "But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ."

The word translated "simplicity" doesn't mean what this proof-text is used to prove, as it isn't the typical meaning of simple, or "easy to understand." To use this text to color all things God and all things Theological as simple is doing disservice to God and His Glory.

The reason people think it is easy to understand (Scriptures) is because they haven't really studied it out much, generally the study is a topical proof-text journey with not much weight. This is why it is difficult to progress in dialogue and debate as too many are spinning their wheels theologically on some proof-texts and not advancing in knowledge as commanded; 2 Peter 3:18; "but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen."

The statement that it (Bible, God, Theology) is simple reinforces Iconoclasts OP of the problem with church-goers lacking any real devotion and great knowledge of the Scriptures. There is not much growing going on, most have just enough verses tucked away, thinking they know what they mean, and are generally using them as weapons, not light.

- Peace

Good post and good verse about the elders receiving double honor...doctrine, teaching, learning are to be highly esteemed among the people of God.:thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[Iconoclast]

Quantum,

And HOW does one know when they reached this vaunted position of being a bible scholar? Must one have a certain ACT or SAT score in Bible?
__________________

Quantum....Luke 24 had posted this;

And every child of God ought to leave the elementary things and press on toward perfection. Every Christian ought to bury his face in Scripture and seek the aid of many more gifted than themselves. Every Christian OUGHT to be doing their dead level best to become a bible scholar.

This is a positive statement for all Christians.....you know like Paul urged the Phillipians in chap 3

12Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

13Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,

14I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
15Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
16Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.

We ought to encourage others in the church to Press on...as paul says...
the word he used here was used of an olympic runner who sees the finish line,and strives to win the race...
Did you mis-read his post? Do you agree this is the goal set forth in scripture...like the writer said to the Hebrews5

11Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.

12For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

13For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.

14But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

Amy...it is good that your church takes study seriously....that will be contagious and get everyone fired up to win the lost...that is what the OP was trying to get at,as well as the good posts offered.

 

[quantumfaith]

Quantum,


Quantum....Luke 24 had posted this;
[/B]

This is a positive statement for all Christians.....you know like Paul urged the Phillipians in chap 3

We ought to encourage others in the church to Press on...as paul says...
the word he used here was used of an olympic runner who sees the finish line,and strives to win the race...
Did you mis-read his post? Do you agree this is the goal set forth in scripture...like the writer said to the Hebrews5


Amy...it is good that your church takes study seriously....that will be contagious and get everyone fired up to win the lost...that is what the OP was trying to get at,as well as the good posts offered.

Icon

How convenient for you to change the path. The implication in Lukes post seemed to suggest that if you are not "a bible scholar" than you should keep silent and offer no input on theological or doctrinal discussion.

BTW, I am in agreement with you that we should press on and encourage others also, nothing in my comment suggested otherwise.

 

[Iconoclast]

Icon

How convenient for you to change the path. The implication in Lukes post seemed to suggest that if you are not "a bible scholar" than you should keep silent and offer no input on theological or doctrinal discussion.

BTW, I am in agreement with you that we should press on and encourage others also, nothing in my comment suggested otherwise.

Quantum,
Luke can answer for himself, but my thoughts are that what he tried to convey is that sometimes a novice can distort claims of truth...we should all have a heart attitude that would desire to improve our understanding each day we have breath,so we can speak confidently in the Lord to sinners giving them saving truth and a real living hope.
I think he meant to say that....if he did not say it clear enough might be another question.
When he said biblical scholar...I do not think he was saying every christian has to be a master of divinity before he can be used as a witness.
Quantum...remember that elders are not to be a "novice".

keep in mind the op the quote by Findley Edge..is the starting point of the thread.....
I do not think I would agree with Mr.Edge on all things...but i enjoyed many of the thoughts he expressed in this book as good topic for discussion..[mostly in the first 70 pages or so.]
I could post more from this book if you think it might be beneficial

 

[freeatlast]

Not all SS classes are teaching baby food. In my class we go verse by verse and actually study the word. :thumbsup:

Exceptionally RARE!

 

[quantumfaith]

Exceptionally RARE!

I agree free, it is rare indeed. But the classes and teachers do exist. This is a failure at all levels of "education and training" in our churches. It also breeds conflict in churches. Some on this board (I don't know about you) would argue if the "education and training" of the a church (any church) does not teach the doctrinal interpretations of calvinism, the that is surely wrong. This would seem to imply that each independent church must clearly express its doctrinal positions (which of course most baptist churches do with some statement of beliefs or articles of faith etc). In the case of most SBC churches the attempt is made to be some what accomodating of different theological "nuances" through cautious wording of such documents.

 

[Luke2427]

If it doesn't have to be behind a pulpit then it doesn't necessarily have to be scholarly.

It is exactly this attitude that I am calling wickedness.

When you (by you I mean whoever) get on bb, for example, and [snip - Personal attacks are not permitted]

This is done on a large scale in this culture and is, imo, MOST responsible for the apostasy of this culture.

A great fallacy. Many "unscholarly" people have influenced many others for Christ.

Once again you miss the whole thrust of the matter while making up straw men.

I never said one had to be scholarly to influence people for Christ.

If you would stay focused and respect the people you debate and their ACTUAL viewpoints you would not be the most controversial moderator on bb.

I was a Catholic for 20 years and didn't know beans about the Bible--Biblically illiterate. The day after I was saved I was out at the university campus knocking at their doors telling them about Christ. I still didn't know much about the Bible. But I did know this--Christ saved me; Christ can save you. I had my testimony to share. That is what Christ called us to be--witnesses not scholars. Read Acts 1:8. The early believers in Acts 8:4 "went every where preaching the word." That was only a few days after Pentecost. They weren't the apostles. The apostles remained in Jerusalem. Your view in not Biblical. There is such a thing as discipleship.

This whole paragraph is pointless because it has nothign to do with the matter in discussion.

Every "scholar" ought to be doing the same thing. Press on toward perfection. You haven't reached there yet.

Now if only you had a reliable mirror you could perhaps make some progress.

Then we should all remain silent??
Every saved person can at least share their testimony with others. No believer is completely ignorant.

This is further evidence of your total inability to stay on topic.

For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. (1 Corinthians 1:19-21)

Yes, this verse is a great one to bolster the very point I am making.

 

[Luke2427]

Quantum,
Luke can answer for himself, but my thoughts are that what he tried to convey is that sometimes a novice can distort claims of truth...we should all have a heart attitude that would desire to improve our understanding each day we have breath,so we can speak confidently in the Lord to sinners giving them saving truth and a real living hope.
I think he meant to say that....if he did not say it clear enough might be another question.
When he said biblical scholar...I do not think he was saying every christian has to be a master of divinity before he can be used as a witness.
Quantum...remember that elders are not to be a "novice".

keep in mind the op the quote by Findley Edge..is the starting point of the thread.....
I do not think I would agree with Mr.Edge on all things...but i enjoyed many of the thoughts he expressed in this book as good topic for discussion..[mostly in the first 70 pages or so.]
I could post more from this book if you think it might be beneficial

Yes, and I even said that one can be painstakingly self-educated and possibly be qualified to speak on weighty matters.

What I am outright condemning as utter wickedness is the haphazard handling of the most important matters in the universe by people who don't really know what they are talking about.

 

[Luke2427]

This is a little off track, Winman was addressing, if I remember correctly the charge that if you are not a theologian it is a great sin.

No one's claimed this. This is a straw man.

I am unapologetically claiming that one who does not have a powerful grasp on theology ought to keep silent on the matter. One who is so arrogant as to speak on such matters in a venue where weaker minds could be influenced by what this one says is a very evil man in my opinion.

All Christians ought to join with me in vehement condemnation of such a man. Jude, Peter and Paul certainly do.

It seems by that earlier claim that we then should all go to seminary and become professional theologians. Winman brought out plainly, some Jesus's most harsh criticisms were aimed at the "theologians" of the day.

Yes, his condemnation was because they spoke out and did not know what they were talking about. They were so arrogant that even though they did not have a real grasp on Scripture they still spewed out their opinions any way.

This is EXACTLY what I am condemning.

that is not to say that the "rest of us" (mere theological mortals) are given a free pass to "butcher" the word.

My point exactly.

I think Winman is trying to communicate that a right heart toward God, and personal study time in the word, qualifies one to speak of christian doctrine and teaching.

A right heart before God will seek out God gifted teachers and a multitude of counselors and have a REAL theological education thereby before it allows one to speak on such grave matters.

A dark and wicked heart will think that God speaks to him and he does not need teachers or counselors to qualify him to speak authoritatively on matters of eternity.

 

[Luke2427]

I cannot believe what I just read. If I am not a bible scholar, I am just unlearned and need to keep silent??

You ought to be a bible scholar if at all possible and you ought to keep silent on matters on which you have no real understanding.

A Bible scholar is one who makes it his life's ambition to study the Word of God and to know what it is actually saying and thereby to come to know the Author of it as well as possible.

You, if you are a Christian, should be a Bible scholar- if you are not you need to repent.

Maybe with all your education you forgot that Christ commanded all Christians to spread the gospel.

I am not talking about the portion of the Gospel which all Christian understand. Yes you should be doing this.

I am talking about matters of the Gospel that you (not you in particular- ANYONE) do not understand because you have not had a real education in such matters.

By "education" I do not necessarily mean seminary. I mean the process by which the humble student has set himself under people who God has gifted to teach and that student has also sought the counsel of a multitude of such gifted men (or women for that matter) and that student is using that training in his rigorous personal pursuit of the knowledge of God from the Word of God.

If one does not have such an education then he ought to keep silent on those matters of eternity which he does not yet understand.
Those matters which he does understand he should be speaking out on- but even then what he thinks he understands should have come through the means that I am enunciating here.

The reason for this is clear: simple people are easily led into error.

People who do not have a real education as I am defining it speak with great authority in this culture and simple minded people flock to their churches by the thousands.

This is exactly how the Pentecostal movement was born, the Mormons, the JW's, most Charasmatics and even cultist churches in the ranks of Baptists.

 

[quantumfaith]

No one's claimed this. This is a straw man.

I am unapologetically claiming that one who does not have a powerful grasp on theology ought to keep silent on the matter. One who is so arrogant as to speak on such matters in a venue where weaker minds could be influenced by what this one says is a very evil man in my opinion.

All Christians ought to join with me in vehement condemnation of such a man. Jude, Peter and Paul certainly do.



Yes, his condemnation was because they spoke out and did not know what they were talking about. They were so arrogant that even though they did not have a real grasp on Scripture they still spewed out their opinions any way.

This is EXACTLY what I am condemning.



My point exactly.



A right heart before God will seek out God gifted teachers and a multitude of counselors and have a REAL theological education thereby before it allows one to speak on such grave matters.

A dark and wicked heart will think that God speaks to him and he does not need teachers or counselors to qualify him to speak authoritatively on matters of eternity.

It was not a strawman, that once again is your opinion. I ask you again, what standards or credentials must one posses in order to pass Your litmus test to qualify to comment/teach on matters of doctrine or theology? Please be clear so that I don't misunderstand you.

A right heart before God will indeed seek to learn, understand and know more of the great mysteries of God and His Word.

Is your "dark and wicked" heart a pointed and intentional comment?

 

[Winman]

Nice number of posts Luke, you called DHKs attitude wickedness, and implied I have a dark and evil heart. I must say, if this is what painstaking study does to a man, it should be avoided like the plague.

I really don't know what to say except that your extreme pride and arrogance is setting you up for a big fall. But... I realize that is falling on deaf ears, some folks have to learn the hard way, and I fear you are one of these.