"Heaven Is for Real"

[Steadfast Fred]

some saints of the OT was raised when Yeshua was raised and walked the earth--scripture doesn't say what happened to them--we can speculate on both fronts----but it is a strong possibility they died again after being raised just like lazerus did . :thumbsup::thumbsup:

so there is proof of a person dieing 2 times in their lifetimes-

Show me the Scripture that those who were raised from the dead died again. If you cannot produce those Scriptures, it is wrong to infer that such an event happened. God could have just as easily taken those who Jesus raised from the dead as He took Enoch in days his day.

 

[Jope]

some saints of the OT was raised when Yeshua was raised and walked the earth--scripture doesn't say what happened to them--we can speculate on both fronts----but it is a strong possibility they died again after being raised just like lazerus did . :thumbsup::thumbsup:

so there is proof of a person dieing 2 times in their lifetimes-

Hey HisWitness,

They were caught up into heaven with Christ (Hosea 6:2; 1Cor. 15:20; Eph. 4:8).

Their home was a heavenly home (Lev. 25:23), and Christ's death was able to bring them to their inheritance (Heb. 9:15).

 

[Jope]

the idea of ghosts roaming the earth are baloney

Hey saturneptune,

Have you ever read Zechariah 6:1-8?

Zechariah 6, NASB, bold emphasis mine
1 Now I lifted up my eyes again and looked, and behold, four chariots were coming forth from between the two mountains; and the mountains were bronze mountains. 2 With the first chariot were red horses, with the second chariot black horses, 3 with the third chariot white horses, and with the fourth chariot strong dappled horses. 4 Then I spoke and said to the angel who was speaking with me, “What are these, my lord?” 5 The angel replied to me, “These are the four spirits of heaven, going forth after standing before the Lord of all the earth, 6 with one of which the black horses are going forth to the north country; and the white ones go forth after them, while the dappled ones go forth to the south country. 7 When the strong ones went out, they were eager to go to patrol the earth.” And He said, “Go, patrol the earth.” So they patrolled the earth. 8 Then He cried out to me and spoke to me saying, “See, those who are going to the land of the north have appeased My wrath in the land of the north.”​

 

[Jope]

I have read the book. It is very touching, but alas, another fairy tale. The story of the rich man and Lazarus make several things quite clear. When we die, we either go into the presence of the Lord, or we go to hell. There is no going back to earth from either side, nor is there any crossing over between heaven and hell.

If Jesus was in paradise (Luke 23:43) while he was in Hades (Acts 2:25, 27), then paradise was in Hades.

If paradise is now in the third heaven, then there was a movement of paradise.

Thus, the passage about Lazarus and the rich man (Luke 16), would be telling of a reality that is not present right now, i.e., there used to be a chasm fixed, so that the righteous that dwelt in Hades couldn't go to the side of Hades where the wicked were tormented in. If paradise has moved, then the righteous no longer go to Hades upon death.

 

[Scarlett O.]

Show me the Scripture that those who were raised from the dead died again. If you cannot produce those Scriptures, it is wrong to infer that such an event happened. God could have just as easily taken those who Jesus raised from the dead as He took Enoch in days his day.

Well, Fred ... by your own reasoning ...

Show me a Scripture that those who were raised from the dead were taken by God as He took Enoch in his day. If you cannot produce those Scriptures, it is wrong to infer that such an event happened. God could have just as easily let them die again since they were not raised in a glorified body, but back into a corruptible body.

:flower: I'm just pickin' at you, Fred.

But really, Jesus Christ was the first one to be raised into an incorruptible body and a glorified body. Everyone who was raised from the dead to walk this earth again was raised back into their corruptible form or else Jesus could NOT be the first fruits of the dead.

Besides, it says in John 12 that when Jesus was in Mary, Martha, and Lazarus' home after Lazarus' raising and Mary was anointing his feet with the expensive oil that lots of people were coming to see Jesus AND to see the resurrected Lazarus.

It also says that the chief priests got so ticked off that Lazarus was drawing crowds for Jesus that they made plans to kill Lazarus, too. The accomplished their plans to kill Jesus. Who's to say they didn't accomplish their plans for Lazarus, too?

 

[HisWitness]

Show me the Scripture that those who were raised from the dead died again. If you cannot produce those Scriptures, it is wrong to infer that such an event happened. God could have just as easily taken those who Jesus raised from the dead as He took Enoch in days his day.

Lazerus for sure died again after he was raised.

 

[HisWitness]

Well, Fred ... by your own reasoning ...

Show me a Scripture that those who were raised from the dead were taken by God as He took Enoch in his day. If you cannot produce those Scriptures, it is wrong to infer that such an event happened. God could have just as easily let them die again since they were not raised in a glorified body, but back into a corruptible body.

:flower: I'm just pickin' at you, Fred.

But really, Jesus Christ was the first one to be raised into an incorruptible body and a glorified body. Everyone who was raised from the dead to walk this earth again was raised back into their corruptible form or else Jesus could NOT be the first fruits of the dead.

Besides, it says in John 12 that when Jesus was in Mary, Martha, and Lazarus' home after Lazarus' raising and Mary was anointing his feet with the expensive oil that lots of people were coming to see Jesus AND to see the resurrected Lazarus.

It also says that the chief priests got so ticked off that Lazarus was drawing crowds for Jesus that they made plans to kill Lazarus, too. The accomplished their plans to kill Jesus. Who's to say they didn't accomplish their plans for Lazarus, too?

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[Jedi Knight]

some saints of the OT was raised when Yeshua was raised and walked the earth--scripture doesn't say what happened to them--we can speculate on both fronts----but it is a strong possibility they died again after being raised just like lazerus did . :thumbsup::thumbsup:

so there is proof of a person dieing 2 times in their lifetimes-

Why did you quote me and made no point to what I said?

 

[HisWitness]

Why did you quote me and made no point to what I said?

what do you think happened to Lazerus after he was raised ???

he went back to his house where he was before he died and lived until he died again ???

what other reasoning are you going to put in it ??

 

[Steadfast Fred]

Lazerus for sure died again after he was raised.

Scripture?

John 12 is the last time Lazarus is mentioned in the Bible. Nowhere does it say he died, or that he was killed. Yes, it says they sought to kill Lazarus, but that does not necessarily mean they were successful.

 

[HisWitness]

Scripture?

John 12 is the last time Lazarus is mentioned in the Bible. Nowhere does it say he died, or that he was killed. Yes, it says they sought to kill Lazarus, but that does not necessarily mean they were successful.

So fred tell us what happened to lazerus outside of naturally dieing again like any human would do ???

did he go up in a whirlwind to YAH---oh btw Elijah never went to heaven---History records him being at another location on the earth after that event.

also the OT folks that were raised from the dead--did they not die again in flesh ???

Did the womans child that Yahshua raised in the NT--did the child not die again in the flesh ???

 

[Steadfast Fred]

So fred tell us what happened to lazerus outside of naturally dieing again like any human would do ???

did he go up in a whirlwind to YAH---oh btw Elijah never went to heaven---History records him being at another location on the earth after that event.

also the OT folks that were raised from the dead--did they not die again in flesh ???

Did the womans child that Yahshua raised in the NT--did the child not die again in the flesh ???

Scripture does not say what happened to those people who were raised from the dead. So at best it is only speculation to say what happened to them.

But one thing is for sure...

It is appointed for man once to die, not multiple times.

What history records Elijah being on Earth? Matthew 17 says that event was a vision. In other words, elijah was not there in the flesh.

 

[HisWitness]

Scripture does not say what happened to those people who were raised from the dead. So at best it is only speculation to say what happened to them.

But one thing is for sure...

It is appointed for man once to die, not multiple times.

What history records Elijah being on Earth? Matthew 17 says that event was a vision. In other words, elijah was not there in the flesh.

By stating that scripture you are saying that they did not die the 2nd time in the flesh--which you have NO scriptural grounds to assume.

you only have to assume the natural process of man and that is to die in the flesh again.

 

[Steadfast Fred]

By stating that scripture you are saying that they did not die the 2nd time in the flesh--which you have NO scriptural grounds to assume.

you only have to assume the natural process of man and that is to die in the flesh again.

Only one appointment with death, not two, not mre.

You are arguing against the plain written Word...


Hebrews 9:27 (KJV) 27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Doesn't say multiple times.

Either there is only one appointment with death and after this the judgement, or the above verse is a lie. I will not be so bold as to embrace the latter statement.

 

[Scarlett O.]

Brother Fred, I don't like being cantankerous, but...

How does the fact that Enoch and Elijah never died, but God took them go with what you are saying - that people will die one and only one time. How does the fact that millions of Christians will be alive when Jesus returns and they will NEVER die the first time go with what you are saying.

With those examples in mind, I don't think Hebrew 9:27 is saying that every human being will die once and only once. It's not teaching a dogma about death. It's teaching about Christ's one-for-all sacrifice.

Here it is in context.

[23] Therefore it was necessary for the copies of the things in the heavens to be purified with these sacrifices, but the heavenly things themselves to be purified with better sacrifices than these. [24] For the Messiah did not enter a sanctuary made with hands (only a model of the true one) but into heaven itself, so that He might now appear in the presence of God for us. [25] He did not do this to offer Himself many times, as the high priest enters the sanctuary yearly with the blood of another. [26] Otherwise, He would have had to suffer many times since the foundation of the world. But now He has appeared one time, at the end of the ages, for the removal of sin by the sacrifice of Himself. [27] And just as it is appointed for people to die once—and after this, judgment— [28] so also the Messiah, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for Him.

This is a teaching about Jesus. The high priest had to seek God for the people's atonement every single year. Jesus Christ paid the atoning price only once. Paul interjects a statement about humanity - that just like humanity will die and then be judged at the end - Jesus has to die and will be the Judge.

There isn't a numerical or quantitative idea here. And the exceptions to dying once - Enoch, Elijah, those alive at Christ's return, those raised from the dead to die again don't negate the intent of the verse. Just as it is the normal thing that we die and then we will face God at His judgment seat, Jesus died and IS mediating for us now and WILL be part of that judgment.

 

[Jedi Knight]

what other reasoning are you going to put in it ??

Scripture.

 

[HisWitness]

Scripture.

easy to take a scripture and say what you want--you can even use the same scriptures and say there is NO God.

just because you use a scripture doesn't make it like you are saying it to be

maybe there is some understanding you are missing --that your not seeing.

 

[Steadfast Fred]

Brother Fred, I don't like being cantankerous, but...

How does the fact that Enoch and Elijah never died, but God took them go with what you are saying - that people will die one and only one time. How does the fact that millions of Christians will be alive when Jesus returns and they will NEVER die the first time go with what you are saying.

With those examples in mind, I don't think Hebrew 9:27 is saying that every human being will die once and only once. It's not teaching a dogma about death. It's teaching about Christ's one-for-all sacrifice.

Here it is in context.




This is a teaching about Jesus. The high priest had to seek God for the people's atonement every single year. Jesus Christ paid the atoning price only once. Paul interjects a statement about humanity - that just like humanity will die and then be judged at the end - Jesus has to die and will be the Judge.

There isn't a numerical or quantitative idea here. And the exceptions to dying once - Enoch, Elijah, those alive at Christ's return, those raised from the dead to die again don't negate the intent of the verse. Just as it is the normal thing that we die and then we will face God at His judgment seat, Jesus died and IS mediating for us now and WILL be part of that judgment.

Both Enoch and Elijah have an appointment with death. I believe they are the two witnesses in Revelation.

As to the Believers at the time of the Rapture, the death of their physical body will happen when they see Jesus and become like Him.

 

[Steadfast Fred]

easy to take a scripture and say what you want--you can even use the same scriptures and say there is NO God.

Said the master manipulator of Scripture.

just because you use a scripture doesn't make it like you are saying it to be

said the master manipulator of Scripture.

maybe there is some understanding you are missing --that your not seeing.

said the master manipulator of Scripture.

 

[HisWitness]

Both Enoch and Elijah have an appointment with death. I believe they are the two witnesses in Revelation.

As to the Believers at the time of the Rapture, the death of their physical body will happen when they see Jesus and become like Him.

BUT if Enoch and Elijah are in heaven then they have dispatched of the this fleshly body--because that which is corruptible cannot enter the presence of YAH..and if they have their new bodies in that case-- How can they die after receiving that which is NOT corruptible--what do you think they are gonna do--put back on their fleasly body so they can die ???