Heaven Or Hell?

[Greektim]

This is a little confusing to me the way you worded it. I suppose it's all in what one wants to take from it. I see a place of comfort (paradise?) and a place of torment, BEFORE the cross.

This started w/ asking whether Solomon was in heaven or hell. I said that was a needless question since the OT doesn't make much of that. You responded with some ideas about the afterlife in the OT. Specifically, you tried to make a point about Saul. I can only assume where you believe Saul in fact ended up. But my point is that when dead Samuel says Saul will join him, he is talking about in the place amongst the dead. Hades. Sheol. It neither speaks to heaven or hell. Only death. The Lazarus account only demonstrated that further. You have the righteous and wicked together, albeit divided, in Hades the place of the dead. You force heaven and hell on a system that thinks in different terms.

 

[kyredneck]

This started w/ asking whether Solomon was in heaven or hell.

Yea, maybe I should've worded it differently, like 'in a good place or in a bad place'.

I said that was a needless question since the OT doesn't make much of that.

The question is a solicitation for opinions.

You responded with some ideas about the afterlife in the OT. Specifically, you tried to make a point about Saul.

Again, was soliciting your opinion. Wasn't trying to make a point.

I can only assume where you believe Saul in fact ended up.

Yea, my opinion is Saul went to 'the good place' with Samuel and not 'the bad place'.

But my point is that when dead Samuel says Saul will join him, he is talking about in the place amongst the dead. Hades. Sheol. It neither speaks to heaven or hell. Only death. The Lazarus account only demonstrated that further. You have the righteous and wicked together, albeit divided, in Hades the place of the dead.

Thanks for your opinion GT.

You force heaven and hell on a system that thinks in different terms.

Wasn't trying to 'force' anything. Like I said, maybe I should've worded it differently, like 'in a good place or in a bad place'.

FTR, I believe Solomon went to 'the good place' because God is faithful even when we are not.

 

[percho]

No... b/c that is a question that the Bible doesn't care to answer. And I don't believe it is a question we are to focus upon too much.

Solomon was a type of Jesus as well as having a very important place in salvation history (HUGE really). But that is the point of Solomon, to connect him to Jesus, not to see if he went to heaven or hell.

Was Solomon of the faith or not of the faith?

I voted heaven BTW

 

[percho]

Samuel to Saul:

19 Moreover Jehovah will deliver Israel also with thee into the hand of the Philistines; and to-morrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me: Jehovah will deliver the host of Israel also into the hand of the Philistines. 1 Sam 28

Any significance to you there?

With me in Sheol?

 

[percho]

22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and that he was carried away by the angels into Abraham`s bosom: and the rich man also died, and was buried.
23 And in Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. Lu 16

Does this not teach different destinations for the righteous and the wicked during the OT?

No. I will add. IMO

We have a place, Hades, Sheol in the OT.
We have three dead people in that place. Abraham, the father of the faithful, Lazarus/Eliezer
in the bosom of the Abraham, dying in the faith of Abraham, and a rich man who did evil to his fellow man.
We have, people, lifting up eyes, dipping fingers, touching tongues. What eyes, fingers, tongues? I ask, is this at the time of the resurrection or are these dead people doing these living things?

As Greektim stated, awaiting the resurrection, even though I don't think he said that meaning in this context. But I believe it to be in this context.

I have five brothers, send. They will not believe even as though one rose from the dead.
Resurrected. Jesus?

 

[Greektim]

Was Solomon of the faith or not of the faith?

I voted heaven BTW

Asked of that way... absolutely Solomon was a believer of YHWH.

 

[kyredneck]

No.

The rich man went to a place of torment and Lazarus to a place of comfort. How is that not two different destinations?

 

[percho]

The rich man went to a place of torment and Lazarus to a place of comfort. How is that not two different destinations?

I'm going to pick on you a little here. Hope you don't mind. Relative to my addition in my last post.

How many years have passed with Abraham and Lazarus eyeing one another before the rich man in Hades, lifts up his eyes and sees them afar off eyeing one another?

 

[kyredneck]

Was Solomon of the faith or not of the faith?

Asked of that way... absolutely Solomon was a believer of YHWH.

16 And after them, out of all the tribes of Israel, such as set their hearts to seek Jehovah, the God of Israel, came to Jerusalem to sacrifice unto Jehovah, the God of their fathers.
17 So they strengthened the kingdom of Judah, and made Rehoboam the son of Solomon strong, three years; for they walked three years in the way of David and Solomon. 2 Chr 11

 

[kyredneck]

How many years have passed with Abraham and Lazarus eyeing one another before the rich man in Hades, lifts up his eyes and sees them afar off eyeing one another?

Don't know percho, eternity equals timelessness. Infinity.

 

[percho]

Don't know percho, eternity equals timelessness. Infinity.

As I said in one of my post, I believe, in that the rich man's eyes are raised, implies he is being resurrected and judged feeling the flames of torment and being this to be the resurrection of Rev 20:13, therefore Abraham and Lazarus, who died in the bosom of the Abraham, in the faith of Abraham ie in Christ, had already been resurrected a thousand years before the rich man was being resurrected.

Having read your comments in the past I don't think you believe those resurrections take place in that manner and that is the reason I said I wanted to pick on you.

 

[Darrell C]

As I said in one of my post, I believe, in that the rich man's eyes are raised, implies he is being resurrected and judged feeling the flames of torment and being this to be the resurrection of Rev 20:13, therefore Abraham and Lazarus, who died in the bosom of the Abraham, in the faith of Abraham ie in Christ, had already been resurrected a thousand years before the rich man was being resurrected.

I would just point out a few things that would make this unlikely:

1. Abraham implies a duration of existing temporal condition (the brothers);

2. We see that this period is contained within the Age of Law ("Let them hear Moses and the Prophets);

3. The Rich Man is already in torment and there is no indication of a shift from Hades to Hell. No indication that resurrection is taking place.


And I'll forego reasons that are specific to a futurist view.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Just like Lazarus could be with Abraham and in torment?

Was this a typo?

God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

4 For it came to pass, when Solomon was old, that his wives turned away his heart after other gods; and his heart was not perfect with Jehovah his God, as was the heart of David his father. 1 Ki 11

Indication is that he died unrepentant, yet he penned a significant portion of holy writ and is in the direct lineage of Jesus Christ.

FYI, I've conversed with several from other denominations in the past that insist there's no way he could be in heaven.

I think it likely he was among the just. If Lot made that list, no reason to see Solomon not making it. I think if we take a dogmatic view that he went into torment based on the fact he sinned, we might be trespassing into a concept not supported by Scripture. While I don't think we can be dogmatic either way, I do consider that the Lord acknowledged Solomon's wisdom, which was bestowed by God.

I will say I voted "Heaven" but I do not believe he went to Heaven at that time, but as already discussed in the thread, I also view him as going to Sheol/Hades. To that section known in Jewish tradition as the Bosom of Abraham and Paradise.


God bless.

 

[percho]

I would just point out a few things that would make this unlikely:

1. Abraham implies a duration of existing temporal condition (the brothers);

2. We see that this period is contained within the Age of Law ("Let them hear Moses and the Prophets);

3. The Rich Man is already in torment and there is no indication of a shift from Hades to Hell. No indication that resurrection is taking place.


And I'll forego reasons that are specific to a futurist view.


God bless.

Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one. Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. Gal 3:19-21

Would hearing Moses and the prophets have made the brothers righteous?

The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it. Luke 16:16

And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? Luke 18:18
25-27 For it is easier for a camel to go through a needle's eye, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. And they that heard it said, Who then can be saved? And he said, The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.
Luke 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. John 3:5

Why was Lazarus, Eliezer (Hebrew) "Help of my God" in Hebrew. carried by the angels in the bosom of the Abraham? Did it have anything to do with the faith of Abraham the father of the faithful? Was Lazarus, of the faith, of Abraham?

Luke 23 39-42 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us. But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss. And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

Heb 5:7-9 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec. V 10

 

[Greektim]

Was this a typo?

God bless.

By all means, point out my error.

 

[Darrell C]

Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one. Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. Gal 3:19-21

Would hearing Moses and the prophets have made the brothers righteous?

So who is the Seed?

And do we think that Christ performed the Work that was foretold in regards to Redemption in His earthly Ministry?

The answer is clearly no, because the Law was still active during His ministry.

And according to Abraham's statement, we can say without controversy that the Law and the Prophets was sufficient for the brothers, not to be righteous (as Paul also taught by the Law shall no flesh be justified), but to escape torment.

The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it. Luke 16:16

And Who is preaching the Kingdom? Christ, and by extension, the disciples.

Doesn't mean that the Law was already made obsolete.

Christ was made under the Law, served under Law, and established the New Covenant through His death.

And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? Luke 18:18
25-27 For it is easier for a camel to go through a needle's eye, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. And they that heard it said, Who then can be saved? And he said, The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.

And what did Christ answer?



Luke 18:18-20

King James Version (KJV)

18 And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?

19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.

20 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.


If men did that, they could inherit eternal life, right? The problem is...no man but Christ ever did.

Luke 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Right.

So let's stop right there, since this is one of the points raised, and consider that: if this were the resurrection of Revelation 20:4, the significance of Someone rising from the dead would be understood, and Abraham would not be telling them about the Law and the Prophets.

He would be directing attention to the risen Christ.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. John 3:5

As we have discussed before, regeneration is something that takes place while someone is physically alive. The next event on our calendar is resurrection, when Christ catches up the Church.

It is not relevant to the dead, or where they end up.

Why was Lazarus, Eliezer (Hebrew) "Help of my God" in Hebrew.

Not relevant unless we want to try to write into the account a fanciful meaning.

We could speculate that the rich man is a representation of Judah, who also had five brothers. But in my view that's going beyond what the account gives us, it is eisegeting the text, and it doesn't fit into any credible scenario.

Lazarus does not stand in a position of "helping God," nor would we cast Judah wholesale as a persona or figure going into eternal punishment.

Why not first take the teaching as Christ gave it?

If you have some theories as to why "Lazarus" is significant, let me know.

Why was Lazarus, Eliezer (Hebrew) "Help of my God" in Hebrew. carried by the angels in the bosom of the Abraham? Did it have anything to do with the faith of Abraham the father of the faithful? Was Lazarus, of the faith, of Abraham?

I think that is a given, seeing he ended up in the same place.

However, one thing that stands out is that Abraham directs the brothers to the Law, which was not established in his day. This helps to highlight the fact that it is faith, and response to the revealed will of God that men are judged by.

Abraham and Lazarus are from two different Eras.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

Luke 23 39-42 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us. But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss. And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

And the primary point i would point out here is that...the Lord coming into His Kingdom was still future.

And not sure how you see this as relevant in regards to my points. I take the position that men did not go to Heaven at death when they died. This is irrelevant for the thief on the cross because it was at that time I believe Christ liberated the Bosom of Abraham.

Heb 5:7-9 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

How was He made complete?

Through His death.

I take a little different view in regards to His supplications, though, as I see no sense in the Son of God taking on the flesh of man and then cowering at the end. Rather, the "cup" I see as Christ asking to be taken away was the veiling of His Glory, or in over words, "Let's get this over with."

The suffering of Christ was not just the physical harm He underwent, but we can also view a suffering from the knowledge He had of sin and it's effect on man.

Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec. V 10

And some think Christ is patterned after Melchisadec, when the opposite is true: everything here on earth is a type of that which is the reality in Heaven.

Melchisadec is prominent because he was a Priest of the Most High God prior to the establishment of the Levitical Priesthood. Now ask yourself, to who would that be significant to?


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

By all means, point out my error.

Not sure that there was an error, which is why I asked for clarification.

You said...

Just like Lazarus could be with Abraham and in torment?

...so I am not sure how you have Lazarus in torment. Or Abraham for that matter.

Perhaps sarcasm?


God bless.