Heavenly Incentives with Earthly Images

[revmwc]

Rev

According to the word of God.

Did God raise Jesus from the dead?
Was the soul of Jesus resurrected from Hades?

Does the living soul even die?

[A] And Jehovah God layeth a charge on the man, saying, `Of every tree of the garden eating thou dost eat; and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it -- dying thou dost die.'

And the serpent saith unto the woman, `Dying, ye do not die, for God doth know that in the day of your eating of it -- your eyes have been opened, and ye have been as God, knowing good and evil.'

One or the other, either [A] or was lying. Who was lying?

When Jesus was made sin for us, he who knew no sin did God apply [A] or to him?

Being from the foundation of the world it was determined for the Lamb to be slain, die the above death of [A]. Why? What good purpose could there possibly be in a dead Lamb. The spirit which had made it a living Lamb would have returned to the One who gave it. The body of the Lamb would have rotted away. And the Lamb would be dead.

Was there any hope for the Lamb?
What was the only hope given for the dead Lamb?

Did the Lamb have a Father? What does it even mean to have a Father?

Paul, an apostle -- not from men, nor through man, but through Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who did raise him out of the dead --

Was that in bold actually done by one of the above to the other above?

Now the living soul does not die but the Physical body of the human does die.

Now as for "A" when Adam and Eve ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and eveil did they die? Not immediately physically but what were they doing when Jesus came walking in the Garden? They were hiding from Him, they were seprated from fellowship with Him and they confessed their sins. A sacrifice was offered and fellowship restored. So did they die, Spiritually or Temporally immediately?
Spiritual death is seperation of man from Spiritual understanding.
Temporal death is seperation from fellowship from God in time. Which death did they suffer immediately?
in scripture "B" we have the serpant decievingEve and yes he lies He misquotes scripture. They didn't die physically immediately but death physically came, first sepration of fellowship occured, then an animal died. That was new, since no animal had died previously and they only died up until the flood by either being offered as an offering or by nature causes since all animals and mankind were to eat of the herbs and fruit of the land. Genesis 1: 29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

No flesh was eaten at this time, when did it change? Gen 9:2 And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth, and upon every fowl of the air, upon all that moveth upon the earth, and upon all the fishes of the sea; into your hand are they delivered.
3 Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.

Notice Noah was told every thing that liveth shall be meat for you. God is now allowing man to eat flesh but not that has life in it, nor blood, he was to bleed out the animal like the Jews were later commanded to do.

4 But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.
5 And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man.
6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.

So physical death came with that animal slain for Adam and Eves clothing. But that animal was not for them to eat nor any animal was eaten as meat until after Gen. 9

 

[percho]

Now the living soul does not die but the Physical body of the human does die.

Now as for "A" when Adam and Eve ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and eveil did they die? Not immediately physically but what were they doing when Jesus came walking in the Garden? They were hiding from Him, they were seprated from fellowship with Him and they confessed their sins. A sacrifice was offered and fellowship restored. So did they die, Spiritually or Temporally immediately?
Spiritual death is seperation of man from Spiritual understanding.
Temporal death is seperation from fellowship from God in time. Which death did they suffer immediately?
in scripture "B" we have the serpant decievingEve and yes he lies He misquotes scripture. They didn't die physically immediately but death physically came, first sepration of fellowship occured, then an animal died. That was new, since no animal had died previously and they only died up until the flood by either being offered as an offering or by nature causes since all animals and mankind were to eat of the herbs and fruit of the land. Genesis 1: 29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

No flesh was eaten at this time, when did it change? Gen 9:2 And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth, and upon every fowl of the air, upon all that moveth upon the earth, and upon all the fishes of the sea; into your hand are they delivered.
3 Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.

Notice Noah was told every thing that liveth shall be meat for you. God is now allowing man to eat flesh but not that has life in it, nor blood, he was to bleed out the animal like the Jews were later commanded to do.

4 But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.
5 And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man.
6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.

So physical death came with that animal slain for Adam and Eves clothing. But that animal was not for them to eat nor any animal was eaten as meat until after Gen. 9

Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

I think that was God speaking. But you need to help him out and explain to me. God wasn't talking about the soul, nephesh, here he was talking about the body?

BTW dying thou dost die.' = the moment you die you will be dead.

He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.

All of him was dead all of him was resurrected from the dead.

 

[revmwc]

Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

I think that was God speaking. But you need to help him out and explain to me. God wasn't talking about the soul, nephesh, here he was talking about the body?

BTW dying thou dost die.' = the moment you die you will be dead.

He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.

All of him was dead all of him was resurrected from the dead.

Death is seperation, sepration of the soul from the body is physical death. In story of Lazarus and the rich man, did the rich man sin? Yes, he did and he died and was buried, Jesus said the rich man opened his eyes and being in torments, his soul was alive just seperated from the body.

Luke 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

Seems they were fully conscious and knew their surroundings. The rich man notice verse 22 died and was buried, verse 23 lifted up his eyes being in torments. Fully conscious yet the body is in the grave, the soul is in torments. Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. This answers your question, the person who not found written in the book of life, that doesn't place his faith in Christ dies the second death and is cast into the lake of in a ressurection body with with the soul and body joined togehter in eternal lake of fire, seperated from God forever that is the second death.

 

[percho]

Death is seperation, sepration of the soul from the body is physical death. In story of Lazarus and the rich man, did the rich man sin? Yes, he did and he died and was buried, Jesus said the rich man opened his eyes and being in torments, his soul was alive just seperated from the body.

Luke 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

Seems they were fully conscious and knew their surroundings. The rich man notice verse 22 died and was buried, verse 23 lifted up his eyes being in torments. Fully conscious yet the body is in the grave, the soul is in torments. Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. This answers your question, the person who not found written in the book of life, that doesn't place his faith in Christ dies the second death and is cast into the lake of in a ressurection body with with the soul and body joined togehter in eternal lake of fire, seperated from God forever that is the second death.

And it came to pass in those days, that she (The soul Tabitha, a body given life by spirit life from God) was sick, and died: (the spirit which had kept Tabitha a living soul returned to God who had given it) whom when they had washed, they laid in an upper chamber.
But Peter put them all forth, and kneeled down, and prayed; and turning [him] to the body said, Tabitha, arise. (restored to life by God through Peter) And she opened her eyes: and when she saw Peter, (Was she dead or alive when she saw Peter?) she sat up.

The same is true for the rich man and also Father Abraham and Lazarus, The curtain had fallen and time had passed on to: 2 Tim. 4:1 I charge [thee] therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

They are all being resurrected to judgement.


For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

 

[revmwc]

And it came to pass in those days, that she (The soul Tabitha, a body given life by spirit life from God) was sick, and died: (the spirit which had kept Tabitha a living soul returned to God who had given it) whom when they had washed, they laid in an upper chamber.
But Peter put them all forth, and kneeled down, and prayed; and turning [him] to the body said, Tabitha, arise. (restored to life by God through Peter) And she opened her eyes: and when she saw Peter, (Was she dead or alive when she saw Peter?) she sat up.

The same is true for the rich man and also Father Abraham and Lazarus, The curtain had fallen and time had passed on to: 2 Tim. 4:1 I charge [thee] therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

They are all being resurrected to judgement.


For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Tabitha like Lazarus the brother of Mary ahd Marthand the young man on the funeral pier that Jesus raised were ressucitated to die yet again. The Rich man and Lazerus the souls were in Hades, one in Paradise the other in Torments their bodies were dead the rich man had been buried. Nothing in what Jesus speaks of concerning them says they had a body restored in fact Jesus made it real clear that the rich man had been buried, Physical life had left, yet he opened his eyes being in torments. He makes it real clear that Lazarus the beggar was physically dead yet recognizable in eternity
Luke 16: 27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

And as you have shown both are awaiting ressurrection the joining of body and soul back togheter for eternity. Christ is the only one who has ever been ressurrected, many have been ressucitated but Christ the only one ressurected.

The rich man says send Lazarus to my brothers and he is told in verse 31 though one rose from the dead they would not be persuaded, Lazarus the begger is dead yet his soul is fully alive and in Paradise, the body is dead.

 

[John of Japan]

John see post 58 to revmac

In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

In my opinion. By question, Is not?

saved, eternal life given by grace of God the Father to the Lamb, (who was made to be sin, and slain from the foundation of the world) because of (through) the faith of the Lamb, the author and finisher of the faith, by obedience of faith unto death even the death on the cross which came with the agony of resisting unto blood, striving against sin in the garden.

Before the faith came. After the faith did come. The faith was the sinless Jesus the Christ, the Lamb dying the cross with only the hope of eternal life which God has promised. The inheritance (eternal life) was by promise. Jesus was the seed of the promise.

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

The resurrected Jesus receiving the promise (eternal life) is the faith.
The substance of what was hoped for and the evidence of the unseen.

Now prior to the verses about our house from heaven which I said could be a metaphor for eternal life is the last verse of chapter 4: While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen [are] temporal; but the things which are not seen [are] eternal.

Compare that to the evidence of the unseen in the definition of faith.

I do believe we should believe yet I do not believe our faith in, is relative.
The resurrected Christ is the substance and evidence of the faith and it is Christ (Faith) in us the hope of Glory.

Chapter 3 of Gal begins with the question of how one was given the Spirit.
By the works of the Law or by the hearing of the above Faith. Per Acts 2:32.33 After and by being raised from the dead, for I believe the renewing of the Holy Spirit is regeneration, Jesus received the promise of the Holy Spirit and then and only then was it given to us.

We received the Spirit by the hearing of Faith.

I am looking forward on your thoughts about my thoughts.

Two things. You have some good thoughts here and I'm sure I would enjoy interacting with you, but yesterday was quite busy and today I have to work on an essay due by the end of the month.

Secondly, I can't figure out what your post has to do with the original OP of the thread. We've lost sight of the "heavenly incentives" idea wherein you agreed with Tom that the crowns mean eternal life, something with no Scriptural support at all, as I've tried to prove. The crowns are rewards, which must be worked for. Eternal life is a gift.

BTW they lost the game 10-6

Too bad! But hopefuly they all had a great time playing baseball, a wonderful game.

 

[John of Japan]

And speaking of Tom, where is the guy? It's his thread, yet he quit posting on the 24th, p. 2, post #17 I think it was. This happened on the last thread I interacted with him on, which thread also he started. Unless he's been unavoidably detained (possible in China), this illustrates that when you spiritualize meanings of the Bible, you quickly run out of arguments to defend your view. Spiritualizing Scripture makes the interpreter the authority instead of Scripture itself.

 

[percho]

Two things. You have some good thoughts here and I'm sure I would enjoy interacting with you, but yesterday was quite busy and today I have to work on an essay due by the end of the month.

Secondly, I can't figure out what your post has to do with the original OP of the thread. We've lost sight of the "heavenly incentives" idea wherein you agreed with Tom that the crowns mean eternal life, something with no Scriptural support at all, as I've tried to prove. The crowns are rewards, which must be worked for. Eternal life is a gift.

Too bad! But hopefuly they all had a great time playing baseball, a wonderful game.

Well I'm an old dude and if you can find the time in the future you can get back to me on some of my thoughts, not to long though I don't even buy green bananas.

We got here because I do not see how the crown of life could be anything but eternal life therefore if so it would have to be a gift as you said and I am not sure the other crowns are not metaphors for eternal life as I stated also about our house from heaven.

BTW I believe I can show absolute proof of what I had to say in post 59 concerning grace being eternal life given to Jesus the Christ. I discovered it when looking at a post in O C D When did you receive God's grace. I saved the proof in a doc on my pc and will post if you are interested.

 

[asterisktom]

And speaking of Tom, where is the guy? It's his thread, yet he quit posting on the 24th, p. 2, post #17 I think it was. This happened on the last thread I interacted with him on, which thread also he started. Unless he's been unavoidably detained (possible in China), this illustrates that when you spiritualize meanings of the Bible, you quickly run out of arguments to defend your view. Spiritualizing Scripture makes the interpreter the authority instead of Scripture itself.

I am glad to see this thread was revisited. I still stand by what I had written. I'll need to read through these comments again. A very worthy topic.

My purpose for answering now, seeing that presumably others are reading this also, is that I did not just run away. John was right in the first part of his comment. There are several times when I cannot get Internet here in China.

I guess I should just put that in my signature, lest someone else thinks that I just "run out of arguments". Connectivity is often a problem here.