Heavens devils?

[Hope of Glory]

Judas betrayed Christ. I don't see how he could be elect when Jesus himself said it would have been better for him to have never been born. That's about as harsh a condemnation you can give anybody.

Well, you are correct in that he was not elect, in that he was removed from one of the 12 thrones ruling. But, that does not negate the idea that he was saved.

He was explicitly called a disciple. We are given the definition of "disciple". People were saved by faith then, just as now.

I also believe that then, just as now, that salvation was irrevocable.

Also, one thing that you mention, about the indwelling of the Holy Spirit not being in effect then, is, I think one possibility for Judas being possessed by Satan, although I don't think the text calls for possession, so much as it calls for influence.

 

[Marcia]

Well, you are correct in that he was not elect, in that he was removed from one of the 12 thrones ruling. But, that does not negate the idea that he was saved.

He was explicitly called a disciple. We are given the definition of "disciple". People were saved by faith then, just as now.

This is not what disciple means. Being a disciples does not mean one is saved. It just means they followed him around and listened to him. There is nothing in the word that necessarily implies salvation.

Jesus had lots of disciples - some of them left after what he said in John 6. Look at Jn 6.66, which says that many of his disciples walked with him no more.

It couldn't be more crystal clear -- son of perdition, Satan entered him (which I think is more than influence - this is possession), better for him not to have ever been born - I mean what could possibly be worse for Jesus to say about Judas than these things?

Betrayal is always by someone close, that is what betrayal means. You are not betrayed by an enemy because you don't expect an enemy to be good to you anyway. You are betrayed by those close to you who appear to be friends.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Marcia: Jesus had lots of disciples - some of them left after what he said in John 6. Look at Jn 6.66, which says that many of his disciples walked with him no more.

HP: I am walking with the Lord. If there comes a time I walk with the Lord no more, does that negate the fact that there was a time which I did?

What about the prayer of Christ I mentioned in my last post to you when he prayed for His disciples? What about them being denoted as the ' salt of the earth' and them being told they were the 'light of the world' in the sermon on the Mount given to His disciples? Are you dead set that they were not saved, i.e. had a hope of eternal life, prior to Pentecost?

 

[Hope of Glory]

This is not what disciple means. Being a disciples does not mean one is saved. It just means they followed him around and listened to him. There is nothing in the word that necessarily implies salvation.

Jesus had lots of disciples - some of them left after what he said in John 6. Look at Jn 6.66, which says that many of his disciples walked with him no more.

John 8:31: "Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;"

Sounds to me as if a "disciple" is much more than someone who is simply a hanger-on or groupie, according the Bible. A disciple is someone who continues in his word. The Bible calls Judas a disciple. So, he must have held on at least long enough to get above that magical line of works that so many seem to require for salvation.

Now, you are correct that many disciples left when his teaching became hard, but they were still disciples. Does this mean that they lost their salvation? Did they not continue in works long enough to earn it or what?

How many Christians do you know who don't walk perfectly with the Lord? (If you say anything less than "all of them", then you know some really special people.) None of us are sinless and perfect, but the Lord knows our hearts. And thankfully, works are not required to be saved, so those disciples who walked with him no more are still saved, but they are certainly going to miss out on rewards for obedience.

 

[EdSutton]

son of perdition is (son of eternal damnation) Hard to believe he was ever saved for me.

I agree. :thumbsup:

Ed

 

[EdSutton]

HP: I am walking with the Lord. If there comes a time I walk with the Lord no more, does that negate the fact that there was a time which I did?

What about the prayer of Christ I mentioned in my last post to you when he prayed for His disciples? What about them being denoted as the ' salt of the earth' and them being told they were the 'light of the world' in the sermon on the Mount given to His disciples? Are you dead set that they were not saved, i.e. had a hope of eternal life, prior to Pentecost?

Although I realize you are not addressing me, per se, I'm a-gonna toss in my two shillings worth.

Coupla' thoughts- When Jesus "prayed for His disciples" (and I'm assuming you are referring to his so-called High Priest's intercessary prayer) as you put it, Judas was not present, there in John 17.

As for "having a hope for eternal life, prior to Pentecost", if some did not [for Peter certainly knew something about it (John 6:68)], it was not because they had not read or heard of that idea, for it was certainly presented. [Dan. 12:2; Matt. 19:16 & Mk. 10:17 ('The rich young ruler' had something of that hope); Matt. 25:46 (preached about the upcoming judgment); Lk. 10:25 (the lawyer asked Jesus about this); John 3: 15, 16 ( Ol' 'Nicky' finally got it! John 7:50; 19:39); John 4:14; 5:24; 6:40, 47; 10:28; 12:25, 50; 17:2,3] and these are just some of the Scriptures that use the term(s) "eternal life" or "everlasting life". So I'd say this hope was there, at least somewhat.

Ed

 

[Marcia]

John 8:31: "Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;"

Sounds to me as if a "disciple" is much more than someone who is simply a hanger-on or groupie, according the Bible. A disciple is someone who continues in his word. The Bible calls Judas a disciple. So, he must have held on at least long enough to get above that magical line of works that so many seem to require for salvation.

I don't believe that being a disciple meant being saved. There is no indication of that. Plus, Judas did not continue in the word. He stole money from the moneybag (and he was the treasurer!) and complained about the woman pouring perfume on Jesus. Since Satan entered him (said in John and I think in Mark), he could not have ever been saved.

Now, you are correct that many disciples left when his teaching became hard, but they were still disciples. Does this mean that they lost their salvation? Did they not continue in works long enough to earn it or what?

How many Christians do you know who don't walk perfectly with the Lord?

I don't believe a saved person can lose their salvation, but I do not think Judas was saved nor do I think the disiciples who left Jesus in John 6 were probably saved, though I think it is clearer with Judas.

This has nothing to do with not walking perfectly (no, no one does)!!! This has to do with a man that Jesus said these things of:

the son of perdition (some translations say the one doomed for destruction)

it would have been better had he never been born....

What more condemning evidence could there be? I'm just agog at the insistence here that Judas was saved when Jesus himself said condemning words of him.

I think the Bible makes it more than clear that Judas was lost:

NASB
"While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.

Jn 17.12

HCSB
While I was with them,

I was protecting them by Your name that You have given Me.
I guarded them and not one of them is lost,
except the son of destruction, [a]
so that the Scripture may be fulfilled.

Footnotes:

1. John 17:12 The one destined for destruction, loss, or perdition

ESV
While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

This is just plain English for saying Judas was damned. He perished, he is lost. Jesus would never call a believer, forgiven and saved by grace, a "son of destruction," or "a son of perdition." He would never say it would have been better that such a person never have been born.

How could it be more plain???

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

ED: When Jesus "prayed for His disciples" (and I'm assuming you are referring to his so-called High Priest's intercessary prayer) as you put it, Judas was not present, there in John 17.

HP: I brought up this prayer due to the fact that Marcia stated that she felt that NONE of the disciples had received salvation before Pentecost. Judas did not really play into the reason I mentioned that.

ED: As for "having a hope for eternal life, prior to Pentecost", if some did not [for Peter certainly knew something about it (John 6:68)], it was not because they had not read or heard of that idea, for it was certainly presented. [Dan. 12:2; Matt. 19:16 & Mk. 10:17 ('The rich young ruler' had something of that hope); Matt. 25:46 (preached about the upcoming judgment); Lk. 10:25 (the lawyer asked Jesus about this); John 3: 15, 16 ( Ol' 'Nicky' finally got it! John 7:50; 19:39); John 4:14; 5:24; 6:40, 47; 10:28; 12:25, 50; 17:2,3] and these are just some of the Scriptures that use the term(s) "eternal life" or "everlasting life". So I'd say this hope was there, at least somewhat.

HP: I agree. If many in the OT and even the thief on the cross made it in before Pentecost, I believe the disciples did as well.

We will have to wait to see what Marcia’s thoughts might be on these points.

 

[Brother Bob]

Oh, the Apostles were saved but I don't think Judas ever was. I think he was chosen for what he was "son of perdition".

"He came to His own but His own received Him not but as many as did He gave them power to become the "sons of God" and not the "son of perditiion".

If Jesus didn't have the power to forgive sin then we all just as well "eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we die". The Holy Ghost on the day of Penecost certainly didn't have more power than Jesus has. Enyway, how many did Jesus say "thy faith hath made thee whole" or "thy faith hath saved thee".?

 

[EdSutton]

Oh, the Apostles were saved but I don't think Judas ever was. I think he was chosen for what he was "son of perdition".

"He came to His own but His own received Him not but as many as did He gave them power to become the "sons of God" and not the "son of perditiion".

If Jesus didn't have the power to forgive sin then we all just as well "eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we die". The Holy Ghost on the day of Penecost certainly didn't have more power than Jesus has. Enyway, how many did Jesus say "thy faith hath made thee whole" or "thy faith hath saved thee".?

How many times? On at least five different occasions that I quickly found, I believe, in the KJV, which number (5) I've heard is the "number of grace" from some of the 'numerology' types.

And as far as I can see at a quick glance, each of those instances is consistent with what I posted on another thread, with some form of the Greek phrase being "" η πιστις σου σεσωκεν σε"" -viz. -

40And Jesus stood, and commanded him to be brought unto him: and when he was come near, he asked him,
41Saying, What wilt thou that I shall do unto thee? And he said, Lord, that I may receive my sight.
42And Jesus said unto him, Receive thy sight: thy faith hath saved thee. {Lk. 18: 40-42 - KJV [with which agree YLT; HCSB- marg.; (W/H, Tr 1550, TR1894, Cr- ((Aland/Black)), and MT ((Hodges/Farstad)) where all read " η πιστις σου σεσωκεν σε")]}

And (my transliteration of) 'sesOke(n)' or "σεσωκεν" is the word "sOzO" , the word which normally means and is mostly translated as 'save' or 'rescue' although Thayer does say it is used in the sense of a 'suffering one', to heal, or to make whole. I'd really like to have the time to do an 'in-depth' on 'sOzO', but doubt that will happen anytime soon.

Hope that helps.

Ed

 

[Hope of Glory]

I don't believe that being a disciple meant being saved. There is no indication of that. Plus, Judas did not continue in the word.

How can one "continue in his word" and not be saved?

We're told that if we "continue in his word", we are disciples.

We are told that Judas was a disciple.

How do you explain this "contradiction"?

How long must one continue in his word to get above that magic line that he's done enough to be saved?

He perished

Absolutely! But, how does one perish who doesn't have life? How do you lose something that you don't have?

 

[Hope of Glory]

which number (5) I've heard is the "number of grace" from some of the 'numerology' types.

Just thought I'd point out that you are referring to "numerics" not "numerology". A whole lotta difference between those two things.

 

[Inquiring Mind]

Marcia said: I don't see where anything you posted indicates Judas was saved. Before Pentecost, there was no indwelling of the HS. In fact, while Jesus was on earth, the HS was not in believers at all because Jesus said he would send the HS after he left, and until he left, the "Comforter" could not come.

41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:

Psa 51:11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

 

[Marcia]

HP: I brought up this prayer due to the fact that Marcia stated that she felt that NONE of the disciples had received salvation before Pentecost. Judas did not really play into the reason I mentioned that.

I didn't say this. I think I said that we don't know when they were saved. Nevertheless, I will grant that if some of the disciples were saved at whatever point you think they were, I think it is clear Judas was not.

 

[Marcia]

How can one "continue in his word" and not be saved?

We're told that if we "continue in his word", we are disciples.

We are told that Judas was a disciple.

How do you explain this "contradiction"?

How long must one continue in his word to get above that magic line that he's done enough to be saved?

I don't know where you are tying in continuing in the word and being saved with Judas. Judas was never in the word! I think he was a bad seed from the get go. There is no indication he did anything good -- he stole, he lied, he was greedy, he deceived, and he betrayed. You are assuming being a disciple means one is saved.

But, how does one perish who doesn't have life? How do you lose something that you don't have?

Perish means that Judas died unsaved. You don't have to have eternal life to perish. Perishing is what happens to the unsaved.

"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life." Jn 3.16

Perish is the opposite of eternal life. Judas was never saved nor is there indication he was. You are assuming being a disiciple means one is saved but there is no evidence for that.

 

[Marcia]

41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:

Psa 51:11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

I never said there was no HS in people before Pentecost!

I said there was no continuing indwelling of the HS in believers before Pentecost. Saul had the HS taken away from him, as did others. God would give the Spirit and take Him away in the OT. This does not happen after Pentecost. Once you have the HS as a believer, you always have the HS (unless you believe one can lose their salvation).

Jesus himself said the HS could not come until he left. When he told Peter that Satan was sifting for him, I think this shows that Peter was not indwelt. I think this is why we see the huge difference between the apostles before Pentecost and afterwards. Before, they are weak, doubtful, afraid, run away when Jesus is arrested, deny him, etc. After Pentecost, they go out, preach the gospel, get arrested, beaten, imprisoned, and killed. They are completely different men.

 

[EdSutton]

Just thought I'd point out that you are referring to "numerics" not "numerology". A whole lotta difference between those two things.

Could well be, as I am not particularly into this, basically deeming a lot of it as mysticism. However, the only book on this that I ever opened was by someone named Bullinger, who used the term "Biblical numerology" to describe what it was about. I got about four pages in, at that glance. I have heard it said many times, however, that certain numbers have special meanings like one, three and ten along with some others being numbers of 'completeness' or 'perfection'; four the number associated with the earth; five the number of grace; and six as the number of man. As I said, "I have heard" some of this. So what I have given was hearsay, absolutely correct, and I attempted to identify it as such.

Ed

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Marcia: Judas was never saved nor is there indication he was. You are assuming being a disiciple means one is saved but there is no evidence for that.

HP: If one cannot believe one is a true disciple just because he is called a disciple by Christ Himself in the first person standing before you, then how could one ever be sure he was a disciple? What solid evidence would trump Jesus words that you are a disciple? Would doctrinal belief in say OSAS, work in ones favor to establish the real facts in this case?

 

[LeBuick]

How can one "continue in his word" and not be saved?

We're told that if we "continue in his word", we are disciples.

We are told that Judas was a disciple.

How do you explain this "contradiction"?

How long must one continue in his word to get above that magic line that he's done enough to be saved?



Absolutely! But, how does one perish who doesn't have life? How do you lose something that you don't have?

You are arguing against the word of God. As Marcia pointed out before, the Bible says there were some who were disciples who, "went back and walked no more with him". This is scripture saying this, not us. This says to me that because you are walking with Christ or even called a disciple does not mean you are saved. Otherwise we are saying that OSAS is not a fact.

Jn 6:66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

LeBuick: This says to me that because you are walking with Christ or even called a disciple does not mean you are saved. Otherwise we are saying that OSAS is not a fact.

HP: That is a very telling statement. Here we see a clear presupposition that determines how one decides fact from fiction, truth from error. It would seem to me that you need to prove that OSAS is indeed a ‘fact’ first. I have yet to see that accomplished.

As a side note, if one would feel that OSAS is indeed a fact, would you be adverse to me stating, or would you be offended, if I stated that such a notion as OSAS is clearly a Calvinistic notion?