Hebrews 12:22-23

[loDebar]

Why post the same bogus views. We are made alive together with Christ, thus when God puts us in Christ, and not before. Thus it follows we would be then numbered in the book of life. And again, scripture says names are not blotted out of the Lamb's book of life.

Why two books if it is the Lamb's book of life. Why are names blotted out with if names are never blotted out.

So the verse where names are added, or think and read post#39

 

[Alan Gross]

... "the book of life" is the book of life.

Are they 'alive'? Then, they are not "blotted out", as in, they are not dead.
...

The Lamb's Book of Life involves The Lamb.

What quality of 'Life' is associated with 'The Lamb'?

Eternal Life.

Chosen in Him before The Foundation of The World.

With Loving Kindness Have I Loved you, I Have Loved you with an Everlasting Love.

The Lamb's Book of Eternal Life was Written in Eternity Past.

 

[loDebar]

... "the book of life" is the book of life.

Are they 'alive'? Then, they are not "blotted out", as in, they are not dead.
...

The Lamb's Book of Life involves The Lamb.

What quality of 'Life' is associated with 'The Lamb'?

Eternal Life.

Chosen in Him before The Foundation of The World.

With Loving Kindness Have I Loved you, I Have Loved you with an Everlasting Love.

The Lamb's Book of Eternal Life was Written in Eternity Past.

The Book was written before time, The Lamb's Book of Life is the same Book, It is dangerous to derive doctrine from translations.

All those created as spiritual beings are in the Lamb's Book of Life. Our names are removed when we reject His patron and we proceed to lake of fire for eternal death

 

[37818]

Possible meaning, Names are not written in the Lamb's book of life when we are made alive or made perfect? I

No.
Names are in the book prior. When one is born from God, the promise is to never blot one's name from the book. 1 John 5:4; Revelation 3:5; Revelation 21:7.

1) Scripture teaches names were not written, and others by inference were written, since the foundation of the world. Therefore the claim that names were written in the Lamb's book of life before the foundation of the world is specifically precluded by scripture. Revelation 13:8

The text need not be interpreted that way. It says not written. It does not say never written, which is how in English you are intrepreting the text.

". . . According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, . . ." -- Ephesians 1:4.

 

[37818]

Yet another empty taint so post.

LOL, and here, so is yours.

 

[InTheLight]

1) We agree, when enrolled in heaven our names are in the Lamb's book of life.
2) Yes, they do. Names by inference are written since the foundation of the world and not before. People are enrolled in a group, church or assembly when they join and not before. People are made perfect when they are placed spiritually in Christ, when they are born anew. It is inescapable.

Please clarify your position.

When are the names written in the Lamb's book of life?

When are the names enrolled in heaven?

Are there two books?

 

[agedman]

Has scripture been referenced that precludes names being written before the foundation of world? Yes, Revelation 13:8, and Revelation 17:8. Names, by inference, were written since the foundation of the world.

I was drafted, and I was enrolled in the Army, enlisted, when I joined the Army and not when my name was entered on the draft list. Lots of folks joined the Navy, got married, got a college deferment, and otherwise avoided Army enlistment.

It was claimed people might be enrolled in heaven but not written in the Lamb's book of life. Nonsense. There is no other way, Jesus is the way, the only way.

And note the pattern, the OP is claimed to be wrong, but no alternative view is supported with scripture.

Since the inauguration of the New Covenant, the bible clearly teaches names are entered in the Lamb's book of life when they are spiritually placed in Christ and are made perfect. Hebrews 12:22-23

Van

one did not avoid the draft. One was enrolled, and then called up when needed. Deferments were given, but such did not remove the drafting ability.

The Father has made choice upon His own pleasure of who He will give to Christ. Christ states "all the Father gives me will come to me."

The draft was not a choice, and neither is it in the humankind ability to chose from the position of unrighteousness that which is righteous.

The unclean can never make the unclean clean.

Your attempt to use Hebrews is just not valid.

But at least you admit that names were written from the foundation. Now, how you take that is certainly under contention. In the past you used it as a springboard to depart from the presentation of Scriptures. Wait to see if that is still true.

 

[kyredneck]

Hebrews 12:22-24 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

This is such a blessed passage for anytime the saints assemble on this Earth.
When we come together as a church we enter into the Embassy of the Kingdom of God. We assemble in the Embassy as citizens of the Kingdom of God. As Christians we are living in a kingdom of this world, but our citizenship is in God's Kingdom.
Therefore, these verses express that the angels and saints who have passed on, join us in celebration of our King. Chapter 11 tells us about saints who had faith. The beginning of chapter 12 shows us that we, whom God has authored faith, join the saints as children of God. Our local assembly in our little Embassy is actually an assembly of all the angels and saints of old.
That should give you a somber grasp of the sacred assembly into which you gather on Sunday mornings or anytime the members of your church gather together.
Sadly, most churches do not take these verses and connect the present juxtaposition of our present gatherings with the assembly of God's host in heaven. We miss out on the magnitude of church assembly.

Agree! It should be noted that neither can been seen with the eye nor touched with the hand, i.e. IT'S SPIRITUAL:

20 And being asked by the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God cometh, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Lu 17

18 For ye are not come unto a mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, and unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest, Heb 12

Before one can enter into it or even 'see' it they must first be born from above:

3 Jesus answered and said to him, `Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born from above, he is not able to see the reign of God;`
5 Jesus answered, `Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born of water, and the Spirit, he is not able to enter into the reign of God;
7 `Thou mayest not wonder that I said to thee, It behoveth you to be born from above; Jn 3

26 and the Jerusalem above is the free-woman, which is mother of us all, Gal 4

 

[agedman]

Since the inauguration of the New Covenant, the bible clearly teaches names are entered in the Lamb's book of life when they are spiritually placed in Christ and are made perfect.

Scripture proof?

 

[Van]

The world was made before that, He was slain so that ALL know who He was and What He did

Not in dispute

 

[Van]

So the verse where names are added, or think and read post#39

Please, to claims the Lamb's book of life is empty with no names written since the foundation of the world is novel, however, no sale.

 

[Van]

No.
Names are in the book prior. When one is born from God, the promise is to never blot one's name from the book. 1 John 5:4; Revelation 3:5; Revelation 21:7.

The text need not be interpreted that way. It says not written. It does not say never written, which is how in English you are intrepreting the text.

". . . According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, . . ." -- Ephesians 1:4.

"by inference other names were written" does not say "never written." More deflection
Two of the three verses do not indicate names written or not written. Deflection
The view in dispute is that since the election of Ephesians 1:4 was corporate, no names were written in the Lamb's book of life before the foundation of the world.

 

[Van]

LOL, and here, so is yours.

More deflection, with no on topic content.

 

[Van]

Please clarify your position.

When are the names written in the Lamb's book of life?

When are the names enrolled in heaven?

Are there two books?

Names are written in the Lamb's book of life since the foundation of the world, not before. Revelation 13:8

When names are written in the Lamb's book of life, the people are enrolled in heaven. I believe same book.

Since those who are enrolled in heaven have been made perfect, the names are written when the individual was transferred into Christ, also termed "put in Christ" and "baptized into Christ." Thus when born anew.

 

[Van]

Van

one did not avoid the draft. One was enrolled, and then called up when needed. Deferments were given, but such did not remove the drafting ability.

The Father has made choice upon His own pleasure of who He will give to Christ. Christ states "all the Father gives me will come to me."

The draft was not a choice, and neither is it in the humankind ability to chose from the position of unrighteousness that which is righteous.

The unclean can never make the unclean clean.

Your attempt to use Hebrews is just not valid.

But at least you admit that names were written from the foundation. Now, how you take that is certainly under contention. In the past you used it as a springboard to depart from the presentation of Scriptures. Wait to see if that is still true.

Stop wasting time with absurdity.

The Father gives individuals to Christ (sets them apart in Christ" when He and He alone credits their faith in Christ as righteousness.

Pay no attention to posters who ascribe ungodly behavior to others. They hinder edification.

 

[Van]

Scripture proof?

Asked and answered. Note all the naysayers post from the same deflection play book.

 

[Van]

Lets go over the OP passage again:

22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,

1) Where are we? In the heavenly Jerusalem, where the church of the first born is located made up of the "spirits of the righteous made perfect."

2) What is the status of those spirits? They have been made perfect, thus put in Christ, regenerated, and born anew. These spirits have been enrolled in heaven. Thus they were not enrolled before they were made perfect, before being born anew, before being put in Christ, as part of the bride and body of Christ. OTOH, they have been made alive together with Christ, and therefore belong in the Lamb's book of life.

3) Some claim the spirits might have been enrolled before they became members of the church of the firstborn. But that is an absurd and unnatural interpretation. When people are enrolled in something, they are members of that something, a group, church or whatever.

4) Why have so many objected to this mainstream view of the passage? Either they want to claim the OT book of the living (Psalms 69:28) is the Lamb's book of life (Revelation 3:5, 21:27). or they want to claim names were written in the Lamb's book of life before the foundation of the world, specifically precluded by Revelation 13:8 and 17:8.

 

[McCree79]

Names are written in the Lamb's book of life since the foundation of the world, not before. Revelation 13:8

When names are written in the Lamb's book of life, the people are enrolled in heaven. I believe same book.
.

That is a grammatical impossibility in Rev 13:8 according to the word order you have embraced.

γέγραπται (written) is not an on going action. It is a completed action with ongoing effects that are still felt. The writing is done. When was it done in relation to the "foundation of the cosmos"? By linking the verb to the previous mentioned phrase, which you have done, you must go with "before". The perfect tense conveys it occurred in the past.... if you allow Απο to connect οὗ οὐ γέγραπται and καταβολῆς κόσμου, the time relationship is past tense. The writing is in the past. You cannot isolate words from context. It doesn't matter what gloss you choose for από, context is king. The tense of the verb controls the time, not the preposition.

You have yet to exegete the Hebrews passage to show us how it shows when the names where written. You offered an analogy and then read that into scripture. That is a poor hermeneutic.


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[Van]

That is a grammatical impossibility in Rev 13:8 according to the word order you have embraced.

γέγραπται (written) is not an on going action. It is a completed action with ongoing effects that are still felt. The writing is done. When was it done in relation to the "foundation of the cosmos"? By linking the verb to the previous mentioned phrase, which you have done, you must go with "before". The perfect tense conveys it occurred in the past.... if you allow Απο to connect οὗ οὐ γέγραπται and καταβολῆς κόσμου, the time relationship is past tense. The writing is in the past. You cannot isolate words from context. It doesn't matter what gloss you choose for από, context is king. The tense of the verb controls the time, not the preposition.

You have yet to exegete the Hebrews passage to show us how it shows when the names where written. You offered an analogy and then read that into scripture. That is a poor hermeneutic.

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Why is it you make grammatical claims that somehow Dr. Wallace misses?

NET version
13:8 and all those who live on the earth will worship the beast, everyone whose name has not been written since the foundation of the world27 in the book of life belonging to the Lamb who was killed.

Footnote #27: The prepositional phrase “since the foundation of the world” is traditionally translated as a modifier of the immediately preceding phrase in the Greek text, “the Lamb who was killed” (so also G. B. Caird, Revelation [HNTC], 168), but it is more likely that the phrase “since the foundation of the world” modifies the verb “written” (as translated above). Confirmation of this can be found in Rev 17:8 where the phrase “written in the book of life since the foundation of the world” occurs with no ambiguity.

The verb translated "written" is in the perfect tense.
"The perfect tense in Greek is used to describe a completed action which produced results which are still in effect all the way up to the present. " Therefore the completed action, names written in the Lamb's book of life, can still be found in the book at the present time, which is set at the end of the age.

So when was the action completed according to grammar? Up to the end of the age. And at that time all the names will have been written as a completed action, with continuing effect, everyone's name will be found in the book that had been written in the book.

 

[McCree79]

Why is it you make grammatical claims that somehow Dr. Wallace misses?

NET version
13:8 and all those who live on the earth will worship the beast, everyone whose name has not been written since the foundation of the world27 in the book of life belonging to the Lamb who was killed.

Footnote #27: The prepositional phrase “since the foundation of the world” is traditionally translated as a modifier of the immediately preceding phrase in the Greek text, “the Lamb who was killed” (so also G. B. Caird, Revelation [HNTC], 168), but it is more likely that the phrase “since the foundation of the world” modifies the verb “written” (as translated above). Confirmation of this can be found in Rev 17:8 where the phrase “written in the book of life since the foundation of the world” occurs with no ambiguity.

The verb translated "written" is in the perfect tense.
"The perfect tense in Greek is used to describe a completed action which produced results which are still in effect all the way up to the present. " Therefore the completed action, names written in the Lamb's book of life, can still be found in the book at the present time, which is set at the end of the age.

So when was the action completed according to grammar? Up to the end of the age. And at that time all the names will have been written as a completed action, with continuing effect, everyone's name will be found in the book that had been written in the book.

Wallace didn't disagree with me. You failed to grasp what he is saying. I never objected to your word order. Look at the definition of pefert tense he has given and how he applied it. He is objecting to your stance. The writing is already completed. The names are still there. There are not names being added. The quote you posted make that clear. You just posted Wallace who objects to you allowing "written" to have a future tense. All the names are already there.

We accept your surrender


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