-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Hebrews 12:22-23
- Thread starter Van
- Start date
- Status
Are you actually claiming my behavior is “ungodly?”
Perhaps you can present quotes from posts I have made to demonstrate to others what you consider “ungodly?”
Such claims as a waster of time, a use absurdity, ungodly, and in a later post a naysayer, is simply a deflection by you, Van.
There is not a single Scripture you have posted that states any name has been added to a blank journal of God He took up with pen in hand and earnestly hoping that someone of His creation just might attain enough self generated faith to get His attention and write down their name.
Not one has been shown.
So then, prove by Scripture not by “I believe” conjectures.
One other point. Obviously you use “since” (Revelation 13:8) as the starting point of when names began to be written. However, does not the verse point out the names as already written? Did not other Scriptures point to the blotting out of names already written?
Wallace didn't disagree with me. You failed to grasp what he is saying. I never objected to your word order. Look at the definition of pefert tense he has given and how he applied it. He is objecting to your stance. The writing is already completed. The names are still there. There are not names being added. The quote you posted make that clear. You just posted Wallace who objects to you allowing "written" to have a future tense. All the names are already there.
We accept your surrender
Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
More deflection, more use of the discredited Calvinist ploy of claiming Greek grammar requires the Calvinist interpretation. Twaddle
Dr. Wallace's footnote agrees with me, names were written since the foundation of the world. Did I say "written" was in the future tense? Nope. Note the waste of time dealing with strawman deflections.
You ignore inferring other names were written, those of the redeemed.
Names not found in the Lamb's book of life were "never written" in the book.
Folks, behold the smoke screen, with no position taken.
Wallace is instructing on sentence structure.
He then clear states what the perfect means. Something you continue to overlook.
So, a baby is born today, he comes to faith on June 20th, 2030. When is his name written?
Still waiting on you to exegete your Hebrews passage.
Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
Last edited:
So now having moved the goal posts from the writing being an ongoing process to admitting the recording names are written (past, done, no more writing now or in the future), you then deflect by declaring this is some “Calvinist ploy.”
Do you not know that this is not just a Calvinistic view?
Deflection, Van. You are well practiced.
Have you considered “why” the Hebrews passage is placed in the pass tense?
Nope, it doesn’t fit your “I believe” scheme so you attempt reconstruction that others have well shown is just not sound.
Blustering proclamations of their work as twaddle does not provide proof, validity, nor support to what you have offered.
1) No I am claiming you Mr. Agedman said my behavior was ungodly. Here is your statement asserting ungodly behavior by me. "In the past you used it as a springboard to depart from the presentation of Scriptures.
2) Agedman claims no names were written in the Lamb's book of life. Absurdity.
3) The spirits made perfect are enrolled in heaven. You do not enroll a person before they were made perfect, such a claim is ludicrous.
Still waiting for you to address our view. "Written since the foundation of the world precludes being written before the foundation. Enrolled in heaven after being made perfect again places the enrolling since the foundation.
If a baby is born today, and is placed in Christ in 2030, his or her name will have been written at the end of age if the age ends after 2030. Your Greek grammar argument is fiction.
1) More charges, more deflection, no goal posts have been moved.
2) The Calvinist ploy is to claim something in Greek grammar supports their bogus view.
3) At the end of the age, the names will (a) have been written, and (b) will still be in the book. This is really simple.
That would require γράφω to be in the future tense. Your argument is for the names to be written after the foundation of creation. That is the future. That is literally the opposite of what John wrote. The perfect tense requires it to be prior to creation. You actually have it occurring after John wrote the word. Something that is grammatically impossible.
How you have moved the foundation of creation to the end of the age is mind boggling. That thought is foreign to the apostle John.
Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
Such is exactly what you do when you present that the religious rulers could prevent anyone from entering heaven. EVEN after giving the explanation that under the OT the folks lived and had access to God by religious duty, and that duty was controlled and access permitted by the rulers, you persisted in taking that single verse and departing from the presentation of Scriptures.
I do not recall claiming it was "ungodly" but typical of those who do make much of "proof texting."
More often, such technique leads to wrong teaching and misapplication.
Sort of like those who claim the verse statement, "God cannot look upon sin" and then declare this is why God turned His eyes from the Cross. They enlarge the error by blustering how he turned His back, and poured out His wrath... and other such statements that in the context of that verse is totally miss applied, and having done misleads.
In this thread you have selected two verses and are basically doing the same in an attempt to bring your own scheme into validity.
I don't remember making such a claim. If you were to point out the post, I would refute it as being wrongly written, for even from my wayward youth my thinking has been that the names were written, not are written. That all names were written at the point of God saying "Let there be Light." God would not be both omnipresent and omniscient were it not true.
Would not your scheme deny the omniscient God and place Him in a character foreign to His total authority as the head of the kingdom? Does God not know the future? Does God have to be made aware of what is taking place in His creation?
In your own view it may be, but in the view of the Scriptures written by God's authority, such is not ludicrous.
When facing Pilot, Christ said, "My kingdom..." When presenting the example of how to pray He stated, "Thy Kingdom..." When was the kingdom formed? After crucifixion?
No, it was formed at the point of the beginning. The names already recorded. God already appointed, predestined (as Ephesians states).
You attempted to use the military as an example, but were shown it didn't work.
Perhaps you might consider this example (though admittedly not the best). A child can receive benefits from Social Security without ever having been enrolled or knowing anything about enrollment.
Those whose names have been written receive the benefits even before they know anything about or are aware of "program."
Do not parents choose a name for the baby prior to birth? Are they not aware that a child will be born?
When the Lord visited Adam, Eve and the serpent, He distinguished between the serpent seed and the woman's seed. Was He unaware of who would be born into which family? Millennia later, Christ called the rulers vipers and stated their father was the devil. Such distinguishing remarks were not exuberance, but factually based.
Those who come to Christ, do so because they are specifically chosen by the Father (as John records) and given to the Son. Their name already recorded, not a single one will escape redemption.
Again, I would ask "why" is the Hebrews passage written in the past tense?
Would not your claim be that God is too puny to be in control, and basically ignorant of what is going on, much less what the future holds, and must be impressed by self generated efforts in order to record in a book those who might be saved if they have enough self generated faith?
And you think the Calvinists have a ploy?
It isn't just the "greek grammar" that supports what @McCree79 and others have posted in opposition to your presentation. It is the grammar of the translations and those more conservative actually leave out "are" in place of such renderings as: "...in heaven enrolled...
(did you not know that some have "are" in italics to show that some determination of a time past was made?)
You have been shown the usage of the original - ignored it or at best attempted to insert something not given. This has been pointed out by others.
You have been shown the usage of the English - ignored it or at best attempted to misapply it to your scheme. This has been point out by others.
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
All Human Beings born as natural descendents of Adam have no Spiritual component that is of God.
God is Spirit.
God Has an Eternal Spirit.
No Human has a Spirit Nature that has any awareness or capability of relating to or knowing God, other than that knowledge He Imparts to them that Makes them Aware He Exists and, therefore, Guilty.
Not until a soul is Given Awareness of their sinful Guilt before God, by God, in Conviction, and When God Leads from there to Give that Convicted lost, blind, soul Repentance and Faith, under the Preaching of The Gospel, do they Possess and Become "Partakers of The Divine Nature", when The Holy Spirit Comes into their soul to Live, Everlastingly, in The New Birth.
Once, a child of God is Adopted they are Always God's Child, because they are Sealed by The Holy Spirit, as Christ Ever Lives to Make Innersession for them.
IT is interesting to see some perusing about the prospect of an actual 'book' written, but all sinners are utterly and absolutely hopeless and helpless God-Haters, who only have the ability to sin, so no Human soul would be saved, if it is dependant on them.
The very fact that their absolute sinful condition has to be Convicted by God and Given Repentance of that sinful STATE, and Belief in Jesus Dying as the Consequence of God's Hatred of that sinful condition the sinner possesses, tells us a Born Again soul was Totally Impotent and Depraved, prior to The Activity and Intervention of Almighty God.
A lost religious 'thinker' that imagines they know something, by using a mind affected by The Curse of The Fall of Adam; not so much.
The expression, 'to be blotted out' does not preclude the Spiritual Reality of them Having Never Been 'Written' or Chosen, EVER.
Last edited:
37818
Well-Known Member
No such inferrence to ignore. It is a popular presumption.
An interpretation of the English translation "are/were not written in the book of life." Revelation 13:8. Revelation 17:8. . . . ου γεγραπται τα ονοματα . . . .
NASB Psalms 69:28, ". . . May they be blotted out of the book of life . . . ."
NASB Exodus 32:33, ". . . will blot him out of My book. . . ."
NASB Revelation 3:5, ". . . He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, . . ."
Last edited:
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
The book of the living and the Lamb's Book of Life are NOT the same thing. The book of the living in the OT was a literal record of who was physically alive.
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
Beginning with 37818's, Psalms 69:28,
". . . May they be blotted out of the book of life . . . ."
.... "the design of this imprecation is,
that those persons who had, in their own conceits,
and in the apprehensions of others, a name in this book;"
( Note: they now appear as
Not Being Written in The Book of Life
that they Assumed they were Written in,
and they had wanted others to believe
they had a Home in Heaven, etc., were Saved, were 'Christians', and were certainly Written in The Book of Life, when they WEREN'T)
"that it might (Note: now) appear, both to themselves and others,
they had none, (Note: none, being, 'No Name Written')
by the awful ruin and destruction
that should be brought upon them;" Gill
....
Does this begin to present another 'implication' God is Expressing, by Design?
Gill calls it an 'imprecation', which Merriam-Webster has as, an anathema, ban, curse, execration, malediction...
...
God Says what He wants to, the Way He wants to, and we need to give ourselves the Liberty to Appreciate The Divine Godhead's Command in Their use of LITERATURE.
...
Gill con't: "...this is The Book of Divine Predestination or Election, often in the New Testament called The Book of Life; in which the names of some persons are written, and others not,
"( Philippians 4:3 ) ( Revelation 3:5 ) ( 13:8 ) ( 17:8 ) ( Revelation 20:12 Revelation 20:15 ) ( 21:27 )"
Psalms 69:28,
". . . May they be blotted out of the book of life . . . ."
"so called,
not with respect to the present life, and the affairs of it,
which belong to The Book of Providence;
"but" the book of life "with respect to the Life
of The World to Come, or Eternal Life, as Kimchi explains it.
"the book of life" is no other than God's Ordination or Foreappointment of men to Eternal Life;
which being called a book and names written in it,
show that election is personal or particular;
the Exact Knowledge God has of His Chosen Ones;
His Great Care of them,
and Value for them;
His Constant Remembrance of them,
and the Certainty of their Salvation;
for such whose names are Written here, in (Note: THE SPIRITUAL REALM of) Reality, can never be blotted out:
this would be contrary to the Unchangeableness of God,
the Firmness of His Purposes, and the Safety of His people."
...
Unless "I'm not a Calvinist" is something other than another gospel and somehow affords some benefit to an individual, the sooner The Bible is read as The Bible, rather than as, "I'm not a Calvinist, so if something appears to be of 'Calvin's teachings, then I personally decide it is error",
the sooner God and His Work may be seen.
Be sure you really want to 'skip Calvinistic teaching', when he is a man and you can rationalize that he, as a man, could be and is darn tottin' assumed to be el-wrong-o,
...when God could possibly be The One you are demanding that you skip.
Either you can Love and Worship The One God of The Bible that Presents His Manifold Wisdom and Whole Council of God to mankind, or not.
...
Know that these nuances in His Use of Literature
that we here on this Board give attention to a lot of times,
are Part and Parcel of, "At that time Jesus answered and said,
I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth,
because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent,
and hast revealed them unto babes." Matthew 11:25.
As a child of God, we need to be sure to give God latitude,
in His Selection of Bible Writing Prowess
and Fearlessness, of being misinterpreted by the wise and prudent.
...
Last edited:
More nonsense, at the end of the age, a completed action before the end of the age, will have occurred. This is really simple, and the pretense that it is difficult to grasp is deflection.
Yet another insult making a bogus claim. This is all they do, deflect, post absurdity, and ad hominems.
Yet another deflection, another strawman, another ad hominem. This is all they have.
Scripture clearly teaches the TULI of the TULIP are bogus doctrines, such as individual names being written in the Lamb's book of life before the foundation of the world.
- Status