Hebrews 6:4-6

[Jarthur001]

Exactly. If it is about salvation, it is about losing salvation. Only a saved person can be apostate.

Amen

Its always good to look at context.

 

[Allan]

He is saying that one can lose your salvation Jarthor.

That is why we were discussing the fact a beleiver can not be an apostate for they (true beleiver) will not and can not leave the faith.

You view of the scriptures is interesting.
So you are contending these verses are dealing with our testamony as beleivers instead of salvation that bears out this testamony? [Just a question]

 

[Hope of Glory]

He is saying that one can lose your salvation Jarthor.

If you're referring to me, I have said no such thing.

In fact, I said the opposite.

You cannot lose your spiritual salvation, so this passage is not talking about spiritual salvation. Because, if it's talking about spiritual salvation, it's talking about losing it, and only a believer can be apostate.

So, I will reiterate: If it's talking about spiritual salvation, it's talking about losing it. That's not possible, so it's talking about something else.

 

[Allan]

Well NOW you make it clear! :BangHead:

Sorry for the misunderstanding then.
We were both saying the same thing but in different languages, or maybe I just had my hearing aide turn off while you were speaking.

Forgive? raying:

If so: :1_grouphug:

 

[Jarthur001]

He is saying that one can lose your salvation Jarthor.

That is why we were discussing the fact a beleiver can not be an apostate for they (true beleiver) will not and can not leave the faith.

You view of the scriptures is interesting.
So you are contending these verses are dealing with our testamony as beleivers instead of salvation that bears out this testamony? [Just a question]

Allan,

If you think my view of scripture is interesting, you should hear my views on basketball strategies. In short its this...
The other players are only on the count to get the ball to me.

Yes, this is how I see it. What do you think? Does it not fit context better then other views. I welcome all input and critique.



In Christ...james

 

[Hope of Glory]

Forgive? raying:

If so: :1_grouphug:

Well, since you didn't call me an unsaved heretic, OK. Just this once.

 

[Allan]

OOoooooooKay!

I have rarely called one a heritic with the exception of Benny Hinn, Oral Roberts, Kenneth Hagin, Kenneth & Gloria Copeland, Paul & Jan Crouch and those of like beleifs.

I think it is normally just discussion of view point until you start denying the immutable truths of scripture or begin declaring we are God and Jesus was the first person born-agian - Trash like that - I call without appology ~HERESY

 

[dispen4ever]

In Chapter 6, the writer is warning the Hebrew Christians. If you, he writes, having embraced grace and Christ's sacrifice, then return to the old way, you are in effect saying that Christ's sacrifice was not once for all time. You are saying that Christ must be continually crucified (just as the once-a-year sacrificial lamb). You're saying that your original repentance must be renewed periodically.

If you embrace that, then you're in big trouble, because Christ will not be sacrificed again and that makes your renewed repentance useless (because it is based on the sacrifice.) In effect, you are holding Christ and his sacrifice in contempt.

And by the way, says the writer, if you can be lost after being saved the first time, you can never be saved again, since Christ will not be crucified again.

This is similar to what Paul wrote to the Galations about the Judaizers, who indeed preached salvation by grace through faith, but wanted to add keeping the law as necessary for salvation.

The term "fall away" cannot mean falling from grace, or losing your salvation. It means backing away from grace and returning to the law.

One of the best brief explanations I have ever read. Amen!

 

[LeBuick]

One of the best brief explanations I have ever read. Amen!

I second this... Except I believe they were not saved at the first tasting and won't be saved at the second, third or fourth tasting because they are hard headed and will always be hard headed and will always refuse to take Christ and the offerring of salvation as it is written. There always folks who want to add to the story. Those are the ones who say BELIEVE AND etc... (speak in tounges etc...)

The bible says believe...

What would make a man who believes in the free gift of salvation go back to killing livestock? It is because he never put all his trust and hope in the free gift. If you have not put your all on the alter, are you saved?

 

[EdSutton]

Mind showing me that in Scripture? Perhaps, the phrase, "false apostate" or something? Or perhaps, in a Greek lexicon that an apostate is someone who doesn't really fall away, but the Bible says he does?

You know, I used to skydive a lot. I could never fall away from the plane unless I was actually on it.

I still ask the question of "Why would anyone 'choose' to jump out of a perfectly sound airplane, unless they were paratroopers?"

Ed

 

[EdSutton]

Heaven forfend!

What I'm saying....

What I'm reeeeaaaalllly saying....

Is that "if" is not in the text, so building an argument on it is forbidden.

Believe whatever you want to. (You're going to, anyway.) Just don't base arguments on something that isn't there.

Well said! It's a participle, if my memory is correct (in context with the other four or five found in the first six verses or so, of Hebrews 6), correctly rendered as "having fallen away", and not "If they shall fall away...".

I do admit to being nostalgic regarding my memory.

Ed

 

[Brother Bob]

Just showing how impossible it is to fall from Grace

It says it is impossible to renew him again unto repentance. He must of got there or it would not be renew.

Made partakers of the Holy Ghost. Some says they were not all the way in but they were partakers of the Holy Ghost.

They were made partakers of the Holy Ghost. I read where someone in the world wanted to buy the Holy Ghost and what the Lord said to him. The world never have had the Holy Ghost. You are either in or out you can't be "lukewarm" and partakers of the Holy Ghost

 

[Ed Edwards]

I still ask the question of "Why would anyone 'choose' to jump out of a perfectly sound airplane, unless they were paratroopers?"

Ed

Maybe you would, if Jesus kicked you out?
Kicking yout out of salvation -- does that sound like an attribute of the
only begotten Son of God ?

 

[LeBuick]

Well said! It's a participle, if my memory is correct (in context with the other four or five found in the first six verses or so, of Hebrews 6), correctly rendered as "having fallen away", and not "If they shall fall away...".

I do admit to being nostalgic regarding my memory.

Ed

Ed, am I also mistaken but I remember the word THE is also not in the original?

Not, "In the beginning" it is "In Beginning"...

 

[LeBuick]

It says it is impossible to renew him again unto repentance. He must of got there or it would not be renew.

Made partakers of the Holy Ghost. Some says they were not all the way in but they were partakers of the Holy Ghost.

So I understand, you are saying they were not saved?

 

[Brother Bob]

No, I am saying it didn't happen. showing how impossible it is, to have a weak God who would let you fall away.

4: For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5: And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6: If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame

That IF is there and to me it is saying they did or they didn't and I pick the "they didn't".

The passage does not say anyone fell, just IF.

 

[Jarthur001]

No, I am saying it didn't happen. showing how impossible it is, to have a weak God who would let you fall away.

4: For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5: And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6: If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame

That IF is there and to me it is saying they did or they didn't and I pick the "they didn't".

We have been over this before for a few pages. Look back near the beginning. The "if" is not there.

 

[LeBuick]

No, I am saying it didn't happen. showing how impossible it is, to have a weak God who would let you fall away.

I'm still not clear but I 100% agree with this, one loosing their salvation would mean Christ was unable to keep our salvation secure.

 

[Brother Bob]

6: If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame

Jauthor001; We have been over this before for a few pages. Look back near the beginning. The "if" is not there.

Hebrews, chapter 6


Compare with Revised Standard Version: Hebr.06



1: Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2: Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
3: And this will we do, if God permit.
4: For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5: And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6: If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

 

[Jarthur001]

6: If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame



Hebrews, chapter 6


Compare with Revised Standard Version: Hebr.06



1: Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2: Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
3: And this will we do, if God permit.
4: For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5: And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6: If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Bob,


I have read this myself 100s of time in the Greek, it is not there. You can post all the translations you want....it still is not in the Greek