Hebrews 6:4-6

Fine, fine, knock yerself out. Let's just everyone agree that, when you argue from "if," it's the same as the old "top knot come down" joke.

It's not there, so we can stop pretending that it is.

Have no fear; no one's doctrine will be affected by the text. The truth is the truth, no matter what the text says.

 

The "if" is not even in the TR. "If" just makes it easier to make it fit certain doctrines.

 

I could can less about the whole "IF" arguement, but the premise of what I stated does not change.
This is not declaring a beleiver can loose their salvation due to apostacy, but that a beleiver wont become an apostate!

I guess my question for Pipedude and Jarthor is:

So are you saying a person CAN loose there salvation?
Since that is what the text is saying will happen when a beleiver becomes an apostate.
That a beleiver must maintian that in the end, hopefully they will be saved?

 

Regarding "IF" - It can be translatable in context of what is being ascribed in scripture, however the the literal or lexical translation of the word is "AND". Many translaters however know that in context of what is being said : that being - it is impossible for one to be an apostate since they would have to loose their salvation and never be able to regain it once it was lost to them. The "IF" simply shows this gramatical argument with more clarity.

However I understand what you are refering to about it NOT being in the manuscripts, which is why I used the term "translatable". Due to context and the English language it is viably translated as such and has been many times.

 

The conjunction has nothing to do with "if". The conjunction is "and". But...

Amen! A saved person can never, under any circumstances lose their everlasting salvation. Either that, or the Scriptures contain contradictions and lies.

Only a believer can become an apostate. How do you fall away from something that you were never at?

 

A person who claims to be a believer but is not.

They were assumed to be one of us, but since they left us, we can know they were never of us.

Having a form of godliness but denying the power thereof:

 

Mind showing me that in Scripture? Perhaps, the phrase, "false apostate" or something? Or perhaps, in a Greek lexicon that an apostate is someone who doesn't really fall away, but the Bible says he does?

You know, I used to skydive a lot. I could never fall away from the plane unless I was actually on it.

 

I added that a moment ago. Man your fast :applause:

 

P.S. - Dictionary (since it is not a word found in scripture otherwise I would give the lexical meaning)

Apostasy: a total desertion of or departure from one's religion, principles, party, ect...

 

Heaven forfend!

What I'm saying....

What I'm reeeeaaaalllly saying....

Is that "if" is not in the text, so building an argument on it is forbidden.

Believe whatever you want to. (You're going to, anyway.) Just don't base arguments on something that isn't there.

 

The example of Reducto-absurdem (RA) in Hebrews 6:4-6:

Heb 6:4-6 (KJV1611 Edition):
For it is impossible for

those who were once inlightned,
and haue tasted of the heauenly gift,
and were made partakers of the holy Ghost,
5 And haue tasted the good word of God,
and the powers of the world to come;

6 If they shall fall away,
to renue them againe vnto repentance:

seeing they crucifie to themselues the Sonne of God afresh,
and put him to an open shame.

INTRODUCITON TO THE R/A,
STATEMENT OF INTENTION:
For it is impossible for

THE TRUE PROPOSITIONS (STATEMENTS):
those who were once inlightned,
and haue tasted of the heauenly gift,
and were made partakers of the holy Ghost,
5 And haue tasted the good word of God,
and the powers of the world to come;

THE PROPOSITION (STATEMENT) TO BE PROVED FALSE:
6 If they shall fall away, to renue them againe vnto repentance:

THE THEN PORTION (THE CONCLUSION)
THAT LOGICALLY FOLLOWS THOSE IF PROPOSITIONS:
seeing they crucifie to themselues the Sonne of God afresh,
and put him to an open shame.

THE MISSING PARTS OF THE ARGUMENT:

Of course, it is obsurd that Jesus will not be crucified
again nor shamed. So the proposition to be proved
false:
6 If they shall fall away, to renue them againe vnto repentance:
has been proved, the saved cannot fall away from salvation.

However, I note about 1/3 of the New Testament is advice on
how to live like a Christ-one, act like a Christ-one, talk
like a Christ-one, be a Christ-one. So let us encourage one another
to walk like a Christian, talk like a Christian, hope like a Christian.



Amen, Brother Ed -- You are so RIGHT ON!

 

I'm sure the falling in Hebrews 3:17 is also hypothetical. In other words, all the children of Israel. since they were under the blood, really did get to enter the Kingdom, but "if" they could have fallen, it would have been impossible to renew them again unto repentance. Right?

Lacy

 

Hebrews 10:26 clearly shows that it is impossible for us to sin willfully, so how could a Christian fall away?

 

OK, so how do you desert or depart from a religion, principle, party, etc., that you were never a part of?

 

Uh, Hello !! What did the Apostle John state:

There are many people who CLAIM to be beleivers but are not nor have they ever TRULY been.

PREACH IT ED !!

 

So, they only claim to be apostate? That's odd.

 

Well was John a liar?

Just because you acknowledge something does not mean you truly beleive that it is truth.

One who is among them and leaves, was one who was accounted AS them but was marked apostate due to the fact they left them. This does not necessitate that they were ACTAULLY beleivers among this group. They were considered apostate because left what IS truth for something else and thus denying those whom they were apart of and the truths they beleived.

 

vote for 29....

Hello Allan and others...,

Who said this has anything to do with salvation at all? Ok...so, nearly everyone in all your theology books and each person in our class and every preacher that has lived...says this. It comes from all sides that it is talking about salvation. I read close to 50 books on Hebrews and had 28 views...all of them said it was salvation. But forget about them....will ya?

Lets take a new look at the text. The context does not hold the weight of all the views I have read. OK, I'm a nut and all knew this...but I did not have true peace about it..until I read it the right way. This means I am right....you see. Well, if there is 28 views I know of, I'm sure there are at least 28 more I have not read. We have 4-5 on the table on this thread. Why not one more???? Why not the right view. I joke of course.

Everyone seems to be fixxed on a few words found in one verse and forget about the context. I feel the passage tells us the real meaning.

Ok...forget ...get it out of your mind right now, that this passsage has anything at all to do with the act of salvation. Drop it. Dumb idea. Get over it. Now that you have done this...look back into chapter 5...near the end and read about this...

We...( the believer)...MUST grow or mature in Christ.

We need meat not only milk...
We need to judge what is right...
We need to grow into teachers..

All of these things are addressed to the believe. Some crazy Calvinist think this is not believers. I am not one of those. Paul, (or the writer) is not telling the non-believer to grow...it is the elect of God he is speaking to. This is all actions and deeds on our part. Not salvation by works, buy works that show faith. (James)

Heb 6....

Go forward in your faith growing more into GRACE, not backwards into the Law of dead WORKS. (remember this word "works")

These 2 verse are just a long way of saying that the subjects are "born again" believers. Now...once you are saved...once you are enlightened...once you are partakers of the Holy Spirit...you are have now moved away from the law of works (jewish Believers)...and into grace. Also the idea is...we are now a new man...and have a changed life. This was addressing the Jews, but it can be applied to all.

Some of what I said, was read into the text of these 2 verses...I admit this. But context of the whole passage will allow this. But in the end we should all agree..this is only stating in a long way that these guys are SAVED.

shall fall away.....
renew them, unto repentance....

These two phases is what causes 28 and counting views. But to much time is spent on these two phases as they try to twist meaning into the text that is not part of context. Lets drop one of these phases now, and we will pick it back up later. Lets drop "renew them, unto repentance" for this is what will happen if they fall away.

Now our text reads with review of above...
Go forward in your faith into GRACE, not backwards into the Law of dead WORKS. (remember this word "works").....and..

Falling away...moving backwards. I think context is still carried from before where we saw...works and dead works.

Works that do not show grace. (being tied to the law).
Works that show no change in our life. (living in sin).

If our works display our God and Lord, in a shameful way. This kind of works KILLS our faith. Its like us bringing the shame that Christ had on the cross to Him again. But it is OUR works that bring the shame. The public sees our works, they know we are believers...and for us to both..follow Christ and to live in sin, is a open shame unto our God for we now are HIS. We belong to HIM. Others are to see Christ in us. Or for us to be saved by grace, and then fall back into the works of the law..places shame on the grace that God gave us in freeing us from the Law making salvation based on works..

What about "renew them, unto repentance"?

If we SIN and we SIN in a public way...living in sin with sinful works of our flesh, and the world sees this, what does this do to our witness?
We shame our God.
We Shame our faith.
We shame the Grace God gives.
We shame our own words as we share to others, for they will mock us and our God, all because of our sinful ways.

This is not speaking of salvation, but full repentance in our works, words and actions after salvation. God is faithful and willing to forgive us. But what about the world that watches us? Also what will God think of our sinful works, and wanting to return to the law? Now, what in the world do I mean "full repentance"? God will forgive us, but we can sin is such a way that our witness on earth is no good here on earth. This does not mean we can not work within the kingdom. We still have jobs. But think about the preacher that falls into sin in a public way, his witness is done for. Again, there are other things the fallen sinner can do, all God forgives his sin, but in some cases the sin is so great our preaching days are over.

This is a new idea...I understand. But I think it is clear, because of the two verses that follows.

FOR....linking back to verse 6....
FOR the herbs/works/actions...that we bring forth are blessed by God. I also see in the context, that the good works when done in light of the Bible, bring praise to God. But..the shame of thorns and briers/bad works/bad public action is rejected. Is rejected not only by God, but also by those that know us. A believer is held to a higher standard by the world, as he should be. When we damage our witness, it shames God and makes our words to the lost a joke.

Why could one be saved by grace, if salvation changes nothing in us? (I speak from the world view) The text goes on to say, that this kind of action by us will lead to cursing, not only by God, but by man as they mock our faith.

He claims to be changed in Christ and look at the way he lives. (Again..I speak as the world sees us)

In the end, these works are burned for they are worthless to God.

Notice what is the picture of the believer. It is the ground. The ground is looked at and also judged by others by the fruits it “bearth” (vs8). God brings grace and waters the ground…(the believer) and the watering, the grace falls all of the believers in this text. The fruit is what brings shame and is disapproved or it will bring glory to God and is blessed.

I like how Young put it…

End of part one....part 2 coming..

 

Vote For # 29

Part 2....

Do I have backing on this view? No! Not by men. I have found no one claiming this view. But I think the idea is seen though out the Bible.

Last..lets look at the next few verses to see if the context is still intact..

Welcome to view number 29.

I call it the 5 "for" view...For it has 5 key "for's" to understanding.

Ok..lets have it. What is the drag down on this view?

I'll just wait out doors as you gather stones.



In Christ...James

 

Exactly. If it is about salvation, it is about losing salvation. Only a saved person can be apostate.