Hebrews 6:4-6

[Jarthur001]

Everyone knows a Greek word alone means one thing but in connection with other words it can mean something else. That is what is happening in this case according to Strong of which I have already shown you and you will not accept Strong and now you want me to accept him. Well, I will if you can show me "kia they shall fall away,"

Go ahead now and show me. You already admitted the word kia means "if" if connected to other words. I have shown you that it is connected and you won't have it. This argument is getting old James, but go ahead and show me.

Pull out your strongs..and turn to page 511, 1st column...about half way down

 

[Brother Bob]

lol, that not it James.

 

[Jarthur001]

lol, that not it James.

what is not it?

 

[Brother Bob]

I don't have a book. Have to work online. Think I order one though. I still know its not it, you looking up one word instead of phrase.

 

[Jarthur001]

I don't have a book. Have to work online. Think I order one though. I still know its not it, you looking up one word instead of phrase.

When you get your book, call me.

Strongs says no support.


Going home. Need food.

 

[Brother Bob]

page 551 don't say anything about if or kia.

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

2532
kai
kai
kahee
apparently, a primary particle, having a copulative and sometimes also a cumulative force; and, also, even, so then, too, etc.; often used in connection (or composition) with other particles or small words:--and, also, both, but, even, for, IF or, so, that, then, therefore, when, yet.

I don't think I buy one after all. Don't need it with internet.

 

[EdSutton]

Brother Bob, I will attempt to answer your one legitimate question to me, from about four pages back, later this evening if I have enough time. But the rest has degenerated into absurdity, and I'll not invest any more time, there, save for a couple of corrections of 'fact', FTR.

Fact #1. The page in the 'hard copy' of Strong's - at least the 1967 twenty-seventh printing from Abingdon Press, is p. # 511, as Jarthur noted, not # 551 where you claimed this was not found.

Fact #2. 'KIA' is an automobile manufacturer. There is no such word as "kia" transliterated or otherwise in either the Greek or English language, save for what I just mentioned, and as an acronym for "Killed In Action". The Greek conjunction is "kai".

Now I think I'll see if I can find some 'open-minded thread' to check out such as, Oh- I don't know, how about Calvinism vs. Arminianism; KJVO vs. Non-KJVO; Alcohol; or something along those lines. :BangHead:

Ed

 

[Brother Bob]

I think you knew that I meant kai but had to make some remarks it seems to me. Matter of fact, no doubt about it. I found the page and pasted it on here. thank you and by the way it does say that kai when used in connection with other words is legit Greek. What about that? As a matter of another fact the post right before yours says "kai".
This was deliberate on your part and then wonder about the absurdity, could be because you just added to it.

 

[Ed Edwards]

...
Fact #2. 'KIA' is an automobile manufacturer. There is no such word as "kia" transliterated or otherwise in either the Greek or English language, save for what I just mentioned, and as an acronym for "Killed In Action". The Greek conjunction is "kai".

...Ed

The other ed sez:

Now my secret is revealed. I drive a Kia.
And I remember 'Kai' is the Greek word 'Kia' is
the car. (I drive a Kia Rio). But without my
Kia, I'd probably forget about the 'kai'.

Strangely, it is the use of 'kai' as a non-conjunctive
'and' that I use in Eschatology. Sentences that start
with 'and' in today's English are rare; but look in Matthew
Chapter 24 and you will see lots of sentences starting
with 'and'. It is the Greek form of an outline.

 

[Brother Bob]

Strangely, it is the use of 'kai' as a non-conjunctive
'and' that I use in Eschatology. Sentences that start
with 'and' in today's English are rare; but look in Matthew
Chapter 24 and you will see lots of sentences starting
with 'and'. It is the Greek form of an outline.

I agree wholeheartly that kai is "and" in most cases when standing alone. But I have researched all day yesterday and today and if all the references are right that I have studied, when kai is used in connection to other words it stands for some small word such as "if". I hope you have read and studied to find that to be a true fact Ed.

 

[Ed Edwards]

I agree wholeheartly that kai is "and" in most cases when standing alone. But I have researched all day yesterday and today and if all the references are right that I have studied, when kai is used in connection to other words it stands for some small word such as "if". I hope you have read and studied to find that to be a true fact Ed.

Brother Brother Bob: You are, as frequently you are, correct.

 

[Ed Edwards]

How do you guys take a perfectly good discussion about falling away and turn it into a fight over the word 'if'? 'If' it were not possible for one to fall away, we would not be having this conversation. If is not the problem. The problem is falling away.

I respectfully disagree.
It is not possible to 'fall away'.
If Jesus saves, Jesus saves FOREVER.

John 5:24 (KJV1611 Edition):
Uerily, verily I say vnto you, Hee that heareth
my word, & beleeueth on him that sent mee,
hath euerlasting life,
and shall not come into condemnation:
but is passed from death vnto life.

God is going to let you pass back from life unto death?
That makes no sence. Everlasing life has no end,
so the saved person never does pass BACK from
life unto death - never ever ever.

Anyway, if the 'if' wasn't there, the logic format places it
there anyway: expressed or not expressed, the 'if' is there.

 

[EdSutton]

I promised an answer, so here it is, and I will answer another question, as well.

It says they crucify to themselves the Son of God "afresh", and put Him to an open shame and to renew them to repentance again is impossible. You don't believe this means they lost their Salvation?

You have a url where I can find the older Textus Receptus at Ed?
You have an online bible of 1611 or one of the TR's?​

In answer to the first question, read the context, all the way from Chapter 5 to Chapter 7. In fact, why not read the entire book of Hebrews. To whom does Apollos address? They are the "we", called "holy brethren", who are called on to not "neglect so great salvation" (doesn't say 'lose'), who are beneficiaries of a once for all time sacrifice for sins, who are repeatedly warned against 'apostasy', and of severe judgement should that happen. However, there is not one verse in the book that says that one will "go to hell" unless they are "faithful", whatever that undefined (and unBiblical) sentence may be interpreted to mean. I have previously spoken about the chastisement and disciplining of 'slipping' saints. It can get extremely terrifying, up to and even dying. The burning of the briars, Heb. 6:7-8, is akin, I believe to the 'bema', where one's works may be burned. And Paul , 'er I mean Apollos, clearly says in Heb.6:9, "we are confident of better things of you, yes, things that accompany salvation, though we speak in this manner."

These admonitions, repeated several times in Hebrews, serve two purposes, I believe. First, one cannot go back, and start over with a 'new beginning', each and every time. Under the old covenant, that was what Israel did. "Cover the sins", every year. That served, and a 'new slate' was started, until the next year when it was done all over again. This is what had been done for 1500 years.

No more! With the Lord Jesus, it was one time, and done. Finished! Sin is not merely covered, any longer! Sin has been "taken away", paid in full, and would not ever be an issue again.

I hope everyone gets this. The issue is no longer 'sin'; the issue is 'SON'!

God, the Son, has paid the price. The relationship is "there for the taking", by faith. Once taken, the fellowship is there for 'the living by faith'. You, Brother Bob, have previously spoken of believing in "OSAS". That and a dollar-fifty will get you a cup of coffee, most places. That belief will not 'save' anyone. One is 'saved' by 'believing/(faith) in the Lord Jesus Christ', by grace. And Scripture does teach an eternal salvation, as I see it. It actually matters little "how I see it"; it matters only how God sees it.

Either Scripture teaches 'salvation by grace', or it teaches 'salvation by works'. There is no middle ground to be had. (Rom. 11:6) :BangHead: Discipleship, once one is saved, is another matter. It is the difference between those of us who are sure of our salvation, and those who are 'Lordship" salvation proponents, and hence, can never be assured of salvation, at all, for one can never know exactly what is the "limit", that one must not cross, and still be saved. And I don't believe that Scripture anywhere teaches "conditional 'everlasting' life". That is a contradiction in terms, from the get-go. So, yes, I believe 'once saved, always saved', is taught by Scripture. Further, there are enough 'clear verses' to illuminate the 'toughies' better, rather than allowing some 'hard to be understood' to erase those. The NT uses believe/faith over 200 times, regarding salvation, to one degree or another. There are other things said, as well, that appear fairly clear to me, at least. And that said, I will not 'choke to death' on the six verses that are unclear, while skipping over those. I'm just not going to pass up "the banquet set before me in the presence of my enemies", preferring to gnaw for one piece of gristle off a slobbered over bone, left over on someone's plate, after they have dined at the King's table. I am an heir, and a joint-heir with the Son of God, to all the Father has. I prefer the initial helping of the prime rib, myself.

The late English Bishop J. C. Ryle, some of which is in his 'farewell letter', had these observations.

"Beware of divisions," "One thing the children of the world can always understand, if they do not understand doctrine; that thing is angry quarreling and controversy. Be at peace among yourselves."

"Itis noteworthy that the penitent thief, even after his conversion, had more suffering to go through before he entered into Paradise. The grace of God and the pardon of sin did not deliver him from the agony of having his legs broken. When Christ undertakes to save our souls, He does not undertake to deliver from bodily pains and conflict with the last enemy. Penitence, as well as impenitence, must taste death."

"Give me plenary, verbal inspiration with all its difficulties, rather than the doubt. I accept the difficulties, and humbly wait for their solution; but while I wait, I am standing on a rock."

I'll apply what Bishop Ryle said, about inspiration, as to difficult verses, as well. I'll take the assurance and humbly wait for full understanding; someone else can have the doubt.
"So, move over, J.C.! Make a little room on that rock for me, as well!" :thumbsup:

Ed

P.S. I have no 1611 KJV, nor do I know how to get one. I have access to the (I presume) 1769 version, and have it as well, among several other versions. I have the 'Aland' UBS NT, and the Hodges/Farstad MT NT. I get access to the others (W/H, TR1550, TR1894) through "Bible Gateway" which come up on at the top in a search on the computer, which also pops up 20 English versions, as well. I don't even know for sure what an URL is, exactly, (although I'm sure my bride :love2: knows), so can't give that to anyone.

 

[EdSutton]

I think you knew that I meant kai but had to make some remarks it seems to me. Matter of fact, no doubt about it. I found the page and pasted it on here. thank you and by the way it does say that kai when used in connection with other words is legit Greek. What about that? As a matter of another fact the post right before yours says "kai".
This was deliberate on your part and then wonder about the absurdity, could be because you just added to it.

I made the two fact corrections that I made because they had been made in error, not to take any 'shot'. I was actually involved in the post over a couple of hours, so did not see your previous post, when I finished mine, fixing supper for my bride in the middle of it. Yes I did know what you meant. That does not mean someone else might be as knowledgable, or a mind reader, for I certainly am not one. There is also a preposition in the Greek that is "dia", as well as a couple of other words that only vary with one letter, as well, that are also very similar. In the midst of my considering a response, the thread had 'grown' by about three pages. And nothing new seemed to be said, so I decided to merely make the two corrections and make no more posts in it, at that time. But I did decide to answer this. And I have. So anyone feel free to continue on. I merely choose not to, on this topic.

Ed

 

[Jarthur001]

P.S. I have no 1611 KJV, nor do I know how to get one.

You get a copy of 1611 by clicking below...

http://dewey.library.upenn.edu/sceti/printedbooksNew/index.cfm?TextID=kjbible&PagePosition=1

 

[Brother Bob]

oh well......

 

[Brother Bob]

Hebrew 6:6 from the 1611 edition of KJV

Thanks James,

 

[LeBuick]

So what did we decide, are we keeping the IF in the Bible or not?

 

[Jarthur001]

So what did we decide, are we keeping the IF in the Bible or not?

I think its kia the car.

I guess we will know for sure when Bobs book comes in. I can't wait to see what it says. The greek gooogle don't show as much as the book.

 

[J.D.]

I must say that even though Bob's theology stinks, he certainly is creative with the graphics.