Hebrews... An ancient sermon?

[Yeshua1]

Yeah and some think the world is flat

That view actually makes some sense, as could be like as many see Mark as rewording down to us messages and sermons heard of peter! Luke same for paul

 

[AustinC]

A.W. Pink:

"...( <580101> HEBREWS 1:1-3) Before taking up the study of the opening verses of our Epistle, let us adduce further evidence that the apostle Paul was the writer of it. To begin with, note its Pauline characteristics. First, a numerical one. There is a striking parallel between his enumeration in Romans 8:35-39 and in Hebrews 12:18-24. In the former he draws up a list of the things which shall not separate the saint from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus. If the reader will count them, he will find they are seventeen in number, but divided into a seven and a ten. The first seven are given in verse 35, the second ten in Hebrews 10:38,39. In Hebrews 12:18-23 he draws a contrast between Mount Sinai and Mount Sion, and he mentions seventeen details, and again the seventeen is divided into a seven and a ten. In Hebrews 10:18,19, he names seven things which the saints are not “come unto”; while in Hebrews 10:22-24 he mentions ten things they have “come unto,” viz., to Mount Sion, the City of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, an innumerable company of angels, the general Assembly, the Church of the Firstborn, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, to Jesus the Mediator, to the Blood of sprinkling. Compare also Galatians 5:19-21, where the apostle, when describing the “works of the flesh,” enumerates seventeen. So far as we are aware, no other Epistle writer of the New Testament used this number seventeen in such a manner.


Again; the terms which he used. We single out one only. In Hebrews 2:10 he speaks of the many sons which Christ is bringing to glory. Now Paul is the only New Testament writer that employs the term “sons.” The others used a different Greek word meaning “children.”

For doctrinal parallelisms compare Romans 8:16, with Hebrews 10:15, and 1 Corinthians 3:13 with Hebrews 5:12-14, and who can doubt that the Holy Spirit used the same penman in both cases?

Note a devotional correspondency. In Hebrews 13:18, the writer of this Epistle says, “Pray for us.” In his other Epistles we find Paul, more than once, making a similar request; but no other Epistle-writer is placed on record as soliciting prayer!

Finally, it is to be noted that Timothy was the companion of the writer of this Epistle, see Hebrews 13:23. We know of no hint anywhere that Timothy was the fellow-worker of anyone else but the apostle Paul: that he companied with him is clear from 2 Corinthians 1:1, Colossians 1:1, 1 Thessalonians 3:1,2...."

I have looked at Pink's commentary. I do not see Paul as writer.
It could, perhaps, be Paul who gave the sermon, but the greek used and the fact that the writer always quotes from the LXX points away from Paul.
In Hebrews 2:3-4 we read:

It was declared at first by the Lord, and it was attested to us by those who heard, while God also bore witness by signs and wonders and various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.

This indicates the person speaking is not an eyewitness to Jesus and not an Apostle. Instead it indicates that the author is a peer with Timothy. A Hellenist Jew, such as perhaps Apollos. The structure of the writing is very much like a sermon structure.

 

[AustinC]

Speculation

Yes, all guesses at authorship of Hebrews is speculation, including those who speculate it is Paul.
The internal evidence points to a next generation, after the Apostles, writer.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Yes, all guesses at authorship of Hebrews is speculation, including those who speculate it is Paul.
The internal evidence points to a next generation, after the Apostles, writer.

look at # 17

 

[AustinC]

look at # 17

You wrote:
I suggest that you check the OT quotes in Romans and Galatians and compare them with Hebrews and then share your conclusions

I suggest you compare the two for us and show how Paul always quoted from the Septuagint as the person in Hebrews does.
Second, would you honestly argue that only Paul can quote from the OT?
Third, would a disciple of Paul not be influenced by Paul in quoting scripture?
Now, look at Hebrews 2:3-4 and show me that only Paul can be the writer. Moreso, show me how this cannot have been a sermon to the early Jewish church.

 

[SavedByGrace]

You wrote:
I suggest that you check the OT quotes in Romans and Galatians and compare them with Hebrews and then share your conclusions

I suggest you compare the two for us and show how Paul always quoted from the Septuagint as the person in Hebrews does.
Second, would you honestly argue that only Paul can quote from the OT?
Third, would a disciple of Paul not be influenced by Paul in quoting scripture?
Now, look at Hebrews 2:3-4 and show me that only Paul can be the writer. Moreso, show me how this cannot have been a sermon to the early Jewish church.

NO New Testament writer ever quotes from the LXX, they used a Hebrew text that in many places does agree with the LXX, and in places also disagrees. There are also places, like Mark 4:12, where the words are from the Aramaic Targum!

If you can read Greek, especailly the grammar, then it is very simple with a Greek NT and Greek LXX (not English). If you cannot, then I can't help.

 

[AustinC]

NO New Testament writer ever quotes from the LXX, they used a Hebrew text that in many places does agree with the LXX, and in places also disagrees. There are also places, like Mark 4:12, where the words are from the Aramaic Targum!

If you can read Greek, especailly the grammar, then it is very simple with a Greek NT and Greek LXX (not English). If you cannot, then I can't help.

Well, the entire book of Hebrews is from the LXX. It seems you may be rejecting the book of Hebrews as a New Testament book since it destroys your assertion.

Moreso, I find your unwillingness to consider the book of Hebrews as a sermon very interesting. I wonder if your argument comes from study or moreso from a bias you will not let go, no matter the internal evidence of the text.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Well, the entire book of Hebrews is from the LXX. It seems you may be rejecting the book of Hebrews as a New Testament book since it destroys your assertion.

Moreso, I find your unwillingness to consider the book of Hebrews as a sermon very interesting. I wonder if your argument comes from study or moreso from a bias you will not let go, no matter the internal evidence of the text.

Textual Criticism of the Hebrew Bible

 

[AustinC]

Textual Criticism of the Hebrew Bible

De Moor conceded that “the citations of the Old Testament in the New Testament quite frequently agree with the Septuagint, even in passages where the Greek Version appears to turn from the Hebrew verity.” Yet he assures us that this is not consistently the case, since the Apostles “sometimes recede somewhat both from the Hebrew text and from the Septuagint Version: often also, with the Septuagint abandoned, they adhere closely to the Hebrew text.”

Did the Apostles Favor the Septuagint?

The writers of the NT quoted from the LXX. Apparently all scholars think this, except you.

 

[SavedByGrace]

De Moor conceded that “the citations of the Old Testament in the New Testament quite frequently agree with the Septuagint, even in passages where the Greek Version appears to turn from the Hebrew verity.” Yet he assures us that this is not consistently the case, since the Apostles “sometimes recede somewhat both from the Hebrew text and from the Septuagint Version: often also, with the Septuagint abandoned, they adhere closely to the Hebrew text.”

Did the Apostles Favor the Septuagint?

The writers of the NT quoted from the LXX. Apparently all scholars think this, except you.

then not only are the OT and NT Inspired by the Holy Spirit, the LXX also, which is a man-made translation! In which case as the LXX did contain some books that are "apocryphal", these also must be equally Inspired! Or else, the NT Writers quote from an uninspired, human work, which is fallible!

 

[percho]

Yeah and some think the world is flat

As far as i can see.

 

[SavedByGrace]

As far as i can see.

Time to return to school

 

[AustinC]

then not only are the OT and NT Inspired by the Holy Spirit, the LXX also, which is a man-made translation! In which case as the LXX did contain some books that are "apocryphal", these also must be equally Inspired! Or else, the NT Writers quote from an uninspired, human work, which is fallible!

When Jesus quoted the LXX did it violate inspiration rules you have made up? When Paul quotes a Cretan poet, does it make that poem inspired? If I quote in English does it make God's word less inspired?

 

[SovereignGrace]

I was just talking to my pastor and his wife yesterday about this very subject. I do not believe it to be Paul, seeing he addressed himself in every letter he wrote, if my memory is correct. Hebrews author does not do this. I know that this is not enough to render a verdict in a court of law, but I do not think the writing in Hebrews matches that of Paul's. But I could very well be wrong.

I rest in knowing that whoever the writer is, it is inspired writing, and that is good enough for me.

 

[George Antonios]

No other early Christian writer had such a deep grasp of the LXX than Paul

There was no LXX in the days of Paul, at least not the one we think of today. The LXX is clearly a post-NT work.

 

[AustinC]

There was no LXX in the days of Paul, at least not the one we think of today. The LXX is clearly a post-NT work.

The scriptures had been translated to greek and the author of Hebrews seems to have been a Hellenist Jew. Perhaps Titus or Apollos or even Luke. The internal evidence points to someone who had heard and been taught by the Apostles and knew Timothy. It also points to being before the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem.

 

[Van]

At this point in time, only God knows who penned Hebrews, but we should all accept that the Holy Spirit of Christ wrote it.

 

[AustinC]

At this point in time, only God knows who penned Hebrews, but we should all accept that the Holy Spirit of Christ wrote it.

Indeed, what I find intriguing is that Hebrews may be a recorded sermon that was passed around by the early church rather than a letter to a specific church.

 

[1689Dave]

Indeed, what I find intriguing is that Hebrews may be a recorded sermon that was passed around by the early church rather than a letter to a specific church.

I think it was aimed at Jewish converts to Christ. the apostasy of some from the same group has much weight in chapter 6. But it is also of benefit to believers of all time especially today when many want to return to animal sacrifices unknowingly committing an unforgivable sin.

 

[AustinC]

I think it was aimed at Jewish converts to Christ. the apostasy of some from the same group has much weight in chapter 6. But it is also of benefit to believers of all time especially today when many want to return to animal sacrifices unknowingly committing an unforgivable sin.

It was preached to a Jewish church, but it is just as relevant to any church, telling congregants not to drift or go back to sins in which they once lived. It is a great admonishment to us to persevere and remain diligent in the faith.