HELL IS NOT LAKE OF FIRE

[Lacy Evans]

Originally posted by Dr. Bob:
Hey, I didn't make up the list. My "scholars" didn't. 2000 years of Christianity did. [/QB]

But I just gave you about 200 years worth of Baptist and/or Brethren history that you are apparantly unaware of. If I may quote the professor from The Lion, The Witch and The Wardrobe, "What do they teach these children in those schools?"

lacy

 

[Lacy Evans]

Originally posted by DHK:
Why is it so hard to believe that Hell is eternal.
Hell will be cast into the Lake of Fire which is eternal.
If I have a handful of sand and cast it on the beach does not the handful of sand become part of all the grains of the sand on the beach? Do they still retain their own identity?
Will Hell retain its own identity in the Lake of Fire? No. But the flames and occupants thereof will continue to exist for all eternity.
A drop of water put into a glass of water becomes part of the water in the glass. It no longer retains its own identity. It is swallowed up the greater. Yet in its former state it was still water. In its latter state it is still water. Its composition doesn't change.

The nature of Hell doesn't change. It is eternal punishment. It separation from God for all eternity. The one is swallowed up by the other. Is this such a hard concept to understand? We see it in life everyday. Hell will be cast into the Lake of Fire. Eternal punishment continues. It starts at the death of the unbeliever and continues throughout eternity no matter which way you look at it.
DHK

DHK,

I think we pretty much agree with that. It was well said. But tecnically if you threw a goldfish bowl full of fish into the sea you wouldn't ever say the fish were in the fishbowl again. You would say they were in the sea.

There are a couple of verses that indicate that believers are present at the Great White Throne.

Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

This statement "whosoever was not found" is an enigmatic statement at best if there are none that are found there.

If I said I caught a net full of fish and threw back everything that was not a bass, then left the statement there, who in there right mind would assume that I threw everything back? No, you would all assume from the way I said it that I did catch some bass. If I caught no bass, I would have said, I threw all of it back. Especially if I never intended or expected there to be any bass in the first place.

Then, after the GWT:

KJV Revelation 21:1-4
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Who has been crying DHK? We just experienced 1000 years of edenic conditions with Christ himself ruling on the earth. Who in the world has been crying?

lacy

 

[Dr. Bob]

Who has been crying DHK? We just experienced 1000 years of edenic conditions with Christ himself ruling on the earth. Who in the world has been crying?

No, Lacy, the CONTEXT shows that we just witnessed the horrors of the Great White Throne Judgment and the casting of the unregenerate into the Lake of Fire/eternal hell.

I will be crying. Won't you?

 

[Lacy Evans]

Originally posted by Dr. Bob:
No, Lacy, the CONTEXT shows that we just witnessed the horrors of the Great White Throne Judgment and the casting of the unregenerate into the Lake of Fire/eternal hell.

I will be crying. Won't you? [/QB]

They had been in the "horrors of Hell" for 1-7 thousand years, Bob! According to your doctrine, what changed, that would suddenly start you to crying? The fish bowl got dumped into the ocean. Did you cry all through the millenium when they were in Hell? And who had their tears wiped away in Rev. 7:17?

lacy

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Lacy Evans:

Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

[QB]

This statement "whosoever was not found" is an enigmatic statement at best if there are none that are found there.

The statement is not enigmatic, but rather emphatic. ALL whose names are not written in the Book of Life will be thrown into the Lake of Fire. That is to say, all unbelievers. There will be no believers there. That is obviuos from the context. Show me one statement, one verse, yea one word, that indicates that any believer will be present. Every word speaks of unbelievers present at the GWT: the dead, death, Hell, etc. There is nothing there that refers to believers. Verse 15 is there for emphasis. These unbelievers do not have their names in the Book of Life, and will therefore be cast into the Lake of Fire.

Then, after the GWT:

KJV Revelation 21:1-4
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Who has been crying DHK? We just experienced 1000 years of edenic conditions with Christ himself ruling on the earth. Who in the world has been crying?

No doubt the phrase "wipe away all tears from their eyes" in this case is figurative, just as the next phrase "no more death." Suppose you die and go to heaven this week, and the rapture doesn't take place for another 1000 years. Then you will have been in heaven for a thousand years, will come with Christ to rule on earth for another 1000 years, then the GWT, and then the new Heavens and earth. After two thousand plus years of no death, "there will be no death" is a relative insignifcant term, just as "wipe away all tears" is. They are terms describing Heaven, in comparison to what our earth is now. Our glorified bodies are not prone to death in the Millennial Kingdom.
DHK

 

[av1611jim]

DHK;
So the new Jerusalem is figurative? New heaven? New earth? All tears? Death? These are all firgurative?
Why pick and choose which is and which is not? Especially given the context? (Which some keep howling about)
As Bro Lacy has so neatly pointed out. "Whosoever was not" implicates that there are some who will be.
Otherwise, "Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord, shall be saved" would make the same fatal error in wording. Clearly, the use of "whosoever" indicates that some will and some will not.
To my recollection, "whosoever" is only used 5 times in the entire Bible. And each time is it used to make clear that there is some who do and some who do not. Some who will and some who will not.
Therefore;
This verse in Rev.20 explicitly tells us that some will be found in the Book of life at this day.
BTW; When I hear my Savior and my God say "No More Death!", believe you, me, it will not be a relatively insignificant" term.!!!
In His service;
Jim

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by av1611jim:
DHK;
So the new Jerusalem is figurative? New heaven? New earth? All tears? Death? These are all firgurative?

Jim, go back and read my post. I never said that ALL or everything was figurative.

Why pick and choose which is and which is not? Especially given the context? (Which some keep howling about)

Because we speak the English language. Like you, I am simply using the KJV here (so far), and words have meanings. One doesn't have to force one's particular meaning into a passage just because of their own presuppositions.

As Bro Lacy has so neatly pointed out. "Whosoever was not" implicates that there are some who will be.
Otherwise, "Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord, shall be saved" would make the same fatal error in wording. Clearly, the use of "whosoever" indicates that some will and some will not.
To my recollection, "whosoever" is only used 5 times in the entire Bible. And each time is it used to make clear that there is some who do and some who do not. Some who will and some who will not.

Let's stop here.
Therefore Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
The rest will stand before God in the GWT, along with all who be raised in the resurrection of the unjust. The Scripture is very clear on this. There will be no born again person there.

Therefore;
This verse in Rev.20 explicitly tells us that some will be found in the Book of life at this day.

That is your opinion. But it doesn't say that. You can't read into Scripture that which is not there. You are like the Catholic that offers proof for the baptism of infants, the jailors household. All the infants were baptized also, they say. What infants? You can't read into a passage that which is not there.

BTW; When I hear my Savior and my God say "No More Death!", believe you, me, it will not be a relatively insignificant" term.!!!
In His service;
Jim

Take my words any way you want to. It is a descriptive phrase describing Heaven in comparison to this old wicked earth. There will be no death in Heaven. Yes. Praise the Lord.
DHK

 

[michelle]

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Who has been crying DHK? We just experienced 1000 years of edenic conditions with Christ himself ruling on the earth. Who in the world has been crying?

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Well, if you all were correctly understanding WHAT the millenial kingdom was, then we wouldn't be discussing this. Ask yourself this: Is the Kingdom of God already here spiritually (within the believer)? Will there be a literal (physical manifestation)of the kingdom of God? When Jesus returns (with us in our glorified bodies BTW), who will be dwelling on earth? Will they have experienced death yet, and therefore judgement? When do they experience the resurrection? Will there be reproduction during the millenial kingdom? If not, and after reading of all the death during the tribulation period, how is it that at the end of the millenial reign we see they measured the sands of the sea? Is the millenial reign all resurrected people? If so, then what is the purpose of it?


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[JohnBaskette]

Dear Michelle, Thank you very much for diving in to this subject. I hope others learn from your post. I pray God I answer you sufficiently & He keeps me from error.
You asked DHK "who has been crying". I’m not sure how to take that except pointing out a common error in Christondom which is: Not all Christians will be “accounted worthy” to reign with Christ. Even The diciple Paul who our Lord inspired to write most of the NT. Prayed that he’d be accounted worthy b/c he explained that he had not yet attained”… Iif blessed Paul prayed to be accounted worthy shouldn’t we as we are to “follow Paul even as he followed Christ?”
Befoe using the ‘C’ word Tell me when the following happens“All tears will be wiped away & we’ll be forever with The Lord” That is The last day when all who have accepted Christ including the unworthy Christians who’ll be in hell during The Kingdom Age. You see if hell were eternal than I’d be IN A CULT!
^That ought to answer your questions but as for Christ’s Kingdom coming physicaly. IT WILL COME ONLY WHEN JESUS BRINGS IT!
Spiritually it is in all Christians now in Word form.

Michelle your reply took took guts, THANK YOU.J In Christ; John

Originally posted by michelle:
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Who has been crying DHK? We just experienced 1000 years of edenic conditions with Christ himself ruling on the earth. Who in the world has been crying?

--------------------------------------------------


Well, if you all were correctly understanding WHAT the millenial kingdom was, then we wouldn't be discussing this. Ask yourself this: Is the Kingdom of God already here spiritually (within the believer)? Will there be a literal (physical manifestation)of the kingdom of God? When Jesus returns (with us in our glorified bodies BTW), who will be dwelling on earth? Will they have experienced death yet, and therefore judgement? When do they experience the resurrection? Will there be reproduction during the millenial kingdom? If not, and after reading of all the death during the tribulation period, how is it that at the end of the millenial reign we see they measured the sands of the sea? Is the millenial reign all resurrected people? If so, then what is the purpose of it?


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

You asked DHK "who has been crying"

Originally posted by michelle:
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Who has been crying DHK? We just experienced 1000 years of edenic conditions with Christ himself ruling on the earth. Who in the world has been crying?

--------------------------------------------------


Well, if you all were correctly understanding WHAT the millenial kingdom was, then we wouldn't be discussing this. Ask yourself this: Is the Kingdom of God already here spiritually (within the believer)? Will there be a literal (physical manifestation)of the kingdom of God? When Jesus returns (with us in our glorified bodies BTW), who will be dwelling on earth? Will they have experienced death yet, and therefore judgement? When do they experience the resurrection? Will there be reproduction during the millenial kingdom? If not, and after reading of all the death during the tribulation period, how is it that at the end of the millenial reign we see they measured the sands of the sea? Is the millenial reign all resurrected people? If so, then what is the purpose of it?


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[michelle]

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You asked DHK "who has been crying"
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No I didn't. I know who was crying. Lacy asked. Those who are crying at the end of the millenial reign who had been living on earth in the millenial reign. If you notice, Satan is released from his prison for a season, just prior to the Great White Throne judgement. These people, living on earth, just prior to the second death, will be the ones crying. Who knows, maybe we all will be, as we see all those unregenerate souls from Hell going into the Lake of fire, which was prepared for the Devil and his angels.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[JohnBaskette]

Well, I'm not sure who to commend as a Kingdom Beliver.
Bro.DHK appeared to me @first to believe.
Sister Michelle asked some Great Questions & if She doesn't already believe, Michelle is very close...
* Please reply with where you stand, for my own information.
In Christ; John

 

[michelle]

--------------------------------------------------
Not all Christians will be “accounted worthy” to reign with Christ. Even The diciple Paul who our Lord inspired to write most of the NT. Prayed that he’d be accounted worthy b/c he explained that he had not yet attained”… Iif blessed Paul prayed to be accounted worthy shouldn’t we as we are to “follow Paul even as he followed Christ?”
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Yes, and it is a good example of humbleness, but not a very good example that Paul ever believed he was going to hell.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[DHK]

The Kingdom of God is not here. That is very evident. The curse is still on the earth. It has not yet been removed. Christ is not literally ruling from his throne in Jerusalem with a rod of iron. The lion is not lying down in harmony with the lamb. The child is not playing with the asp. All things in nature are not back in harmony as they were before Adam sinned. All people from all nations are not travelling to Jerusalem to bring their offerings to Christ and to worship King Jesus.
When you see these things happening then you will convince me that we are living in the Millennial Kingdom, but not until then.
Nor yet have I ever known any historical event where Jesus has come with his holy angels in all of his glory back to this earth. He came as an infant in a manger. That is not in might and glory with his holy angels.
DHK

 

[JohnBaskette]

Dear Michelle; Forgive me for thinking you asked DHK "Who's crying". My only excuse is, as you & others can see, I'm new to replying to threads

Originally posted by michelle:
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You asked DHK "who has been crying"
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No I didn't. I know who was crying. Lacy asked. Those who are crying at the end of the millenial reign who had been living on earth in the millenial reign. If you notice, Satan is released from his prison for a season, just prior to the Great White Throne judgement. These people, living on earth, just prior to the second death, will be the ones crying. Who knows, maybe we all will be, as we see all those unregenerate souls from Hell going into the Lake of fire, which was prepared for the Devil and his angels.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[JohnBaskette]

Brother DHK,
No need to answer that foolish question YOU ARE OBVIOSLY A KINGDOM BELIEVER! PRAISE GOD!
In our Lord's name; John

 

[michelle]

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* Please reply with where you stand, for my own information.
In Christ; John
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Sure. I will answer what I believe of my following questions, because these were questions I had as I study/ied this issue. The reason I asked these questions, was to get others to THINK about them, not necessarily for them to answer me personally, but I welcome any thoughts.


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Well, if you all were correctly understanding WHAT the millenial kingdom was, then we wouldn't be discussing this. Ask yourself this: Is the Kingdom of God already here spiritually (within the believer)?
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Yes. Jesus said the kingdom of God is within you.


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Will there be a literal (physical manifestation)of the kingdom of God?
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Yes, as the Old testament and New speak to this. This is what the Jews thought Jesus was coming for the first time, but missed understanding his first coming to be sacrificed first, and to bring into the fold the genitiles.


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When Jesus returns (with us in our glorified bodies BTW), who will be dwelling on earth? Will they have experienced death yet, and therefore judgement?
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Jesus returns with all his saints to earth, to those who have survived the tribulation period (till the end) and they are still in their flesh. They have not yet died, and have not yet experienced the judgement of God that comes after death. It is for a man to live once, and then the judgement. These people will live in the flesh during the millenial kingdom, until the second death. This is why the first resurrection is blessed and holy. The church is of Christ, who is the firstfruits. We have much better promises than Israel.


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When do they experience the resurrection? Will there be reproduction during the millenial kingdom? If not, and after reading of all the death during the tribulation period, how is it that at the end of the millenial reign we see they measured the sands of the sea? Is the millenial reign all resurrected people? If so, then what is the purpose of it?
--------------------------------------------------


There will be flesh and blood living on earth during the millenial reign, with also those who have been resurrected (showing forth the glory of God, to which is Christ Jesus, who we are in - and who we are always with) and those resurrected will be like the angels, who do not marry and bear children. Those living on earth in the flesh, will continue to have children. These people will not experience the first resurrection, but the second death. They are these people who will stand before the Great White Throne Judgement along with death and Hell. They will not have power as the first, but will reign as kings and preists in the millenial reign, to which they had done. The second death is the second resurrection. One to life eternal, and the other to eternal damnation. Those souls in hell will recieve a body, and be cast into the lake of fire with those bodies. Currently, they have no body. The devil and his angels, have a body, and the lake of fire was prepared for them, and as they go into it in thier bodies, so also will these lost souls, go into in their resurrected bodies into the same lake of fire.


We see that God's promise to Abraham is fulfilled just as Satan is released for a season, that they measured the sands of the sea. This was not only a spiritual fulfillment, but a literal/physical one also, as is being shown in the scriptures. There were not many people to have survived the physical judgements of God on this earth, and this shows that there will be reproduction. THis is the purpose of the millenial reign - to fulfill prophecies and promises made to Israel - God's chosen people, and chosen nation. Then the end comes, and the New Heavens, and New Earth are come in for all eternity, and God dwells in it. There will be no sun or moon or stars, as God is the light that lights it. During the millenial reign, the sun, moon and stars will still be there as well as the old earth. It will experience the same renewal as the people in the flesh will have undergone when Jesus returns. However, they have not experienced the resurrection. The millenial kingdom is not the new earth yet. It is the same one, with the true King reigning it, as never before, except prior to the fall. The millenial kingdom is the kingdom of Jesus Christ on this earth, not the new one. As Jesus is entitled to reign it, but more importantly, Israel has called upon him whom they peirced and are now accepting the Lord to be their king, as never before. Previously, it was Satan, and men who ruled this earth. Now it will be Jesus. WE christians have Jesus to rule over us each individually/personally. However, in the millenial reign, this will be physical, and worldwide. This is the reason for the millenial reign.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[JohnBaskette]

Sister Michelle,

 

[JohnBaskette]

Sister Michelle,
A KINGDOM BELIVER as I suspected, amen
Also, AMEN to your attempt to get people thinking about it... My purpose is the same, I'd wanted to discuss it rationally with some one who may've doubted. Hoping to campare Scrimpture W/Scripture instead of hurling insults
You, my sister are a breath of fresh air!
In Christ; John

 

[michelle]

John,


Thank you for your compliments. Now I need to eat some humble pie

.
I have never heard this term Kingdom Believer. I do not understand what this implies. I only believe what the Lord has shown me in and from the scriptures. This is how I understand it, and to which makes the most sense when rightly dividing the word of truth. Can you please explain what Kingdom Believer is? Thanks.

Just to let you know, I do NOT believe that a saved person can go to HELL. This is a false teaching, contrary to the scriptural truth.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[JohnBaskette]

Dear Michelle,
Soryy for putting you in the Kingdom Believer category in my mind. Let me ask you a question as nice as I can, "Where will the the Christian who is not accounted worthy of Kingdom reign be during Christ's millenial reign?
The answer is a holding place called hell during The Kingdom Age. This is the reason all in Hell are judged out of "The Lamb's Book of Life before Hell is cast into the LOF. Of course the fearful,unbelieving & non-Christians await judgement @ The Great White Throne.
I'd love to discuss this further please reply when time...
In Christ; John