NONE who were ever really saved will be lost again, as the Holy Spirit sealing is eternal!
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Hell Is Not the Lake of Fire
- Thread starter Hark
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Do you hold to either a partial rapture or to Millimium exclusion then?
Hark
Well-Known Member
Not seeing how that opposes what I am sharing here.
Since there is a day that is coming when God will judge His House first per 1 Peter 4:17-19 as that is the day spoken of in 1 Corinthians 3:13. The warning to Thyatira to repent or else be cast into the bed of the great tribulation when God will judge the churches by their works with death in Revelation 2:18-25 which ties in with 1 Corinthians 3:16-17 of the temple of God being destroyed; hence physical death for which the spirit is saved per 1 Corinthians 3:15 as stated earlier when judged.
Thus 1 Peter 4:19 comes into application that He is faithful to keep the souls of His saints that got left behind to suffer the fire coming on the earth & the coming great tribulation, even though denied by Him because of them being in works of iniquity that deny Him. Titus 1:16-17 & 2 Timothy 2:11-13
Then how do you apply this then? Jesus is repeating Matthew 5:22-26 but in more detail.
Matthew 18:21 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? 22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven. 23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. 24 And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents. 25 But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made. 26 The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. 27 Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt. 28 But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest. 29 And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. 30 And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt. 31 So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done. 32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me: 33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee? 34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses. KJV
Think of it in this way.. at the Marriage Supper in Heaven, no one is allowed to hold a grudge against their brother or sister in Heaven. If the "enemy" is there, then God has delivered him or her from the evil they had been doing on earth; we just were not around for them to ask for forgiveness but He forgave them before He came as the Bridegroom.
That is why this is written.
James 5:8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh. 9 Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door. 10 Take, my brethren, the prophets, who have spoken in the name of the Lord, for an example of suffering affliction, and of patience. 11 Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy. KJV
We suffer being defrauded & persecuted in the hopes our enemies will one day repent, either by believing in Him or repent f the evil they are doing to others, even Christians, so they can be received by the Bridegroom.
1 Timothy 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. 16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting. KJV
Paul believed he was the example set for why we are to suffer in the hopes that others may come to believe in Him for life everlasting.
We all need His help to forgive one another by applying that hope in Him for others that when we see them in Heaven at the Marriage Supper, they have repented & Jesus has forgiven Him for why they are there as we shall rejoice with them in the Lord.
Hark
Well-Known Member
Brothers can go astray for why Jesus said to correct them or excommunicate them as He will get them later on as mentioned earlier starting at verse 10 in Matthew 18:10-17. We are not to condemn any professing believers as if they are not a brother or they are not saved, but excommunicate when unrepentant in the hopes that they will repent later on by God's grace & help in peradventuring to recover them from the snare of the devil per 2 Timothy 2:24-26. Since they already know the gospel, it is correction & reproof by scripture is what they are needing to walk in the light in fellowship with the Father & the Son again.
So, yes, the Holy Spirit is not going anywhere, but because believers can defile the temple of God which is our bodies per 1 Corinthians 6:19-20 & thus grieve the Holy Spirit per Ephesians 4:30 then God will judge them per 1 Corinthians 3:10-17.
If they do not look to Jesus Christ as the author & finisher of our faith to help them lay aside the weights & the sins ( Hebrews 12:1-2 ), they run the risk of being disqualified to attend the Marriage Supper in Heaven but they will be resurrected later on after the great tribulation to serve Him as vessels unto dishonor in His House ( 2 Timothy 2:18-21 ) in service to the King of kings on earth.
Hark
Well-Known Member
Since I do not know everything about either one< I will say this that the pre great tribulation rapture is when God will judge His House first per 1 Peter 4:17-19 as He is faithful to keep the souls of the saints left behind to suffer what is coming on the earth.
Then there is this also below. What is the terror of the Lord but to not be accepted by Him for why we should look to Him as our Good shepherd, trusting Him to help us lay aside every weight & sin so that we may be received by Him as that vessel unto honor in His House to attend the Marriage Supper in Heaven.
2 Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. 11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.
Even Paul says he can be left behind if he did not bring his body under subjection by the grace of God & His help. So the loss of rewards of crowns is not the only thing at risk in not running that race by faith in Jesus Christ but one can become a castaway.
1 Corinthians 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. 25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. 26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: 27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
So the lake of fire nor hell is never a risk to saved believers since those saints who die left behind, their souls will be present with the Lord in Heaven as 2 Corinthians 5:8 says above..
There are NO verses that support what you state here, as Pul stated that all shall be saved, just some will smell like ran thru the flames to get there!
Hark
Well-Known Member
@Van & @37818 & @robycop3 & @Squire Robertsson & @Salty & @Dave G & @Scott Downey & @Yeshua1 FYI
Then how do you apply this then? Jesus is repeating Matthew 5:22-26 but in more detail & in the same book
Matthew 18:21 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? 22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven. 23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. 24 And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents. 25 But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made. 26 The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. 27 Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt. 28 But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest. 29 And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. 30 And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt. 31 So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done. 32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me: 33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee? 34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses. KJV
Think of it in this way.. at the Marriage Supper in Heaven, no one is allowed to hold a grudge against their brother or sister in Heaven. If the "enemy" is there, then God has delivered him or her from the evil they had been doing on earth; we just were not around for them to ask for forgiveness but He forgave them before He came as the Bridegroom.
That is why this is written.
James 5:8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh. 9 Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door. 10 Take, my brethren, the prophets, who have spoken in the name of the Lord, for an example of suffering affliction, and of patience. 11 Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy. KJV
We suffer being defrauded & persecuted in the hopes our enemies will one day repent, either by believing in Him or repent f the evil they are doing to others, even Christians, so they can be received by the Bridegroom.
1 Timothy 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. 16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting. KJV
Paul believed he was the example set for why we are to suffer in the hopes that others may come to believe in Him for life everlasting.
We all need His help to forgive one another by applying that hope in Him for others that when we see them in Heaven at the Marriage Supper, they have repented & Jesus has forgiven Him for why they are there as we shall rejoice with them in the Lord.
In any event, we have proof that Strong's Concordance did not discern every usage of each Greek word as applied in the Bible. Look at how sheol was applied below as that hell.
Deuteronomy 32:21 They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation. 22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains. 23 I will heap mischiefs upon them; I will spend mine arrows upon them. KJV
If you look at Strong's concordance again, they did not see sh' owl or sheol as that punishment that comes on the earth.
Indeed, one can say it related to Gehenna as a valley of Hinnon when His anger shall burn unto the lowest valley and the earth, even reaching the mountains. It cannot be the place of the dead or the grave here because the anger is directed to those who have sinned against Him on the earth to punish them when it will become the place of the literal dead bodies..
Something to prayerfully discern with Him about. But obviously hell is not the lake of fire when modern Bibles as well as the KJV has it in 2 Peter 2:4 as separate from the lake of fire in the context of that message in that verse.
Then how do you apply this then? Jesus is repeating Matthew 5:22-26 but in more detail & in the same book
Matthew 18:21 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? 22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven. 23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. 24 And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents. 25 But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made. 26 The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. 27 Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt. 28 But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest. 29 And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. 30 And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt. 31 So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done. 32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me: 33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee? 34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses. KJV
Think of it in this way.. at the Marriage Supper in Heaven, no one is allowed to hold a grudge against their brother or sister in Heaven. If the "enemy" is there, then God has delivered him or her from the evil they had been doing on earth; we just were not around for them to ask for forgiveness but He forgave them before He came as the Bridegroom.
That is why this is written.
James 5:8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh. 9 Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door. 10 Take, my brethren, the prophets, who have spoken in the name of the Lord, for an example of suffering affliction, and of patience. 11 Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy. KJV
We suffer being defrauded & persecuted in the hopes our enemies will one day repent, either by believing in Him or repent f the evil they are doing to others, even Christians, so they can be received by the Bridegroom.
1 Timothy 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. 16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting. KJV
Paul believed he was the example set for why we are to suffer in the hopes that others may come to believe in Him for life everlasting.
We all need His help to forgive one another by applying that hope in Him for others that when we see them in Heaven at the Marriage Supper, they have repented & Jesus has forgiven Him for why they are there as we shall rejoice with them in the Lord.
In any event, we have proof that Strong's Concordance did not discern every usage of each Greek word as applied in the Bible. Look at how sheol was applied below as that hell.
Deuteronomy 32:21 They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation. 22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains. 23 I will heap mischiefs upon them; I will spend mine arrows upon them. KJV
If you look at Strong's concordance again, they did not see sh' owl or sheol as that punishment that comes on the earth.
Indeed, one can say it related to Gehenna as a valley of Hinnon when His anger shall burn unto the lowest valley and the earth, even reaching the mountains. It cannot be the place of the dead or the grave here because the anger is directed to those who have sinned against Him on the earth to punish them when it will become the place of the literal dead bodies..
Something to prayerfully discern with Him about. But obviously hell is not the lake of fire when modern Bibles as well as the KJV has it in 2 Peter 2:4 as separate from the lake of fire in the context of that message in that verse.
No matter how many subject change posts are posted, the topic of the thread remains.
Hell is a word found in English translations and is used to translate more than one place. Instead of using "hell" translations should use (1) Hades, (2) Gehenna, (3) Tartarus, (4) Sheol, and (5) Lake of Fire.
In the KJV, at Revelation 20:14, Hades is translated as "hell" and at Deuteronomy 32:22 Sheol is translated also as "hell" and at Matthew 5:22 Gehenna is translated as "hell" and at 2 Peter 2:4 Tartarus is translated as "hell."
And, yes, Gehenna and the Lake of Fire are probably the same place.
Hark
Well-Known Member
No matter how many subject change posts are posted, the topic of the thread remains.
Hell is a word found in English translations and is used to translate more than one place. Instead of using "hell" translations should use (1) Hades, (2) Gehenna, (3) Tartarus, (4) Sheol, and (5) Lake of Fire.
In the KJV, at Revelation 20:14, Hades is translated as "hell" and at Deuteronomy 32:22 Sheol is translated also as "hell" and at Matthew 5:22 Gehenna is translated as "hell" and at 2 Peter 2:4 Tartarus is translated as "hell."
And, yes, Gehenna and the Lake of Fire are probably the same place.
Your {SNIP] is you avoiding the reproofs shown in that post #128, because you cannot handle the truth as shown in scripture.
You cannot even refute it by scripture to prove otherwise. So I can understand why you [SNIP] Others will too.
Matthew 5:22-26 is addressing saved believers as brothers is noted also in Matthew 18:21-35 as addresses saved believers as brothers but in more detail in proving that brother is the saved believer.
Either confront the ugly truth to yourself that Matthew 5:22-26 is addressing saved believer so you can see the beautiful truth that those saints left behind on earth are still saved ( 1 Corinthians 3:10-17 & Revelation 2:18-25 ), OR you are hindered from correcting those who believe that passage is about loss of salvation when it is not about that.
Everyone knows your "reproofs" are absurdities, that must be cloaked in masses of non-germane verbiage.
Hell is a word found in English translations and is used to translate more than one place. Instead of using "hell" translations should use (1) Hades, (2) Gehenna, (3) Tartarus, (4) Sheol, and (5) Lake of Fire.
In the KJV, at Revelation 20:14, Hades is translated as "hell" and at Deuteronomy 32:22 Sheol is translated also as "hell" and at Matthew 5:22 Gehenna is translated as "hell" and at 2 Peter 2:4 Tartarus is translated as "hell."
And, yes, Gehenna and the Lake of Fire are probably the same place. Also note that the KJV is asserting "hell" and the Lake of Fire are the same place when it translates the Gehenna of Fire as hell.
37818
Well-Known Member
Sheol, its lower place and on the earth and the foundations of the mountains, are three different places were the fire of God's anger reacbs.
Hark
Well-Known Member
But that lower place has to be applied as valley as down in the valley when His anger is directed to sinners that has made Him mad on the earth. There is no point directing his anger towards those in hell where the spirits of the dead sinners are, but on the living sinners that are facing this fire on the earth since it is on the earth & even reaching the mountaintops. It's like saying there is no place for those sinners to hide from His wrath.. not the lowest valley nor the mountaintops; they are going to get it.
37818
Well-Known Member
You seem to be being irrational trying to make it mean what you want it to mean. So this seems to me. You can undersand this stuff as you want. Honestly, I cannot unravel your thinking.
Hark
Well-Known Member
Please consider then this point; on whom is His anger being given?
Deuteronomy 32:20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith. 21 They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation. 22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains. 23 I will heap mischiefs upon them; I will spend mine arrows upon them. 24 They shall be burnt with hunger, and devoured with burning heat, and with bitter destruction: I will also send the teeth of beasts upon them, with the poison of serpents of the dust. 25 The sword without, and terror within, shall destroy both the young man and the virgin, the suckling also with the man of gray hairs.
Reads like His anger is directed towards the sinners in the land of the living in committing these offenses. It cannot be directed to hell where the spirits of the dead go to. Since Gehenna is also a valley in Hinnon, then Gehenna in verse 22 from which hell was translated from is valley from how the fire of His anger will go into the lowest valley & on the earth all the way up to the mountains where the fire of His anger will consume those sinners from the land of the living.
So Gehenna is not limited to the grave or the lake of fire but how it is used in the verse to which proves that Gehenna can be applied to a place of refuse where the unburied dead are in a land of flames. in regard to Revelation 8:7 where unrepentant believers left behind shall be experiencing for even this offense in Matthew 5:22-26 as Revelation 18:1-25 confirms.
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Debate over “Hell” has never been about “anti-KJV”... at least not based on the verse in question.
Grom a technical perspective- Hell and the Lake of Fire are not synonymous.
BUT- functionality, that will no longer be the case, as you even posted that Hell will be cast into that Lake of Fore.
I believe this is called a straw man logical fallacy...
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