There is no need for me to prove Hades is not Gehenna or the Lake of Fire, scripture does that. And Hell is the word used to translate very different places as if they were the same place.
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Hell Is Not the Lake of Fire
- Thread starter Hark
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Hark
Well-Known Member
Right. If you consider how we are saved simply by believing in Him, even in His name per John 1:12-13, so that foundation laid by Jesus Christ is not going anywhere, but the works on that foundation that defiles the temple of God will be removed by Him per 1 Corinthians 3:10-17, thus salvation is not loss to those unrepentant saints & former believers left behind as He will overcome for them even though they will incur a physical death but their spirit is saved per 1 Corinthians 3:15-17
Jesus is till the Savior of unrepentant saints & former believes left behind for why He overcomes for them in the warnings to the 7 churches in Revelation.
Hark
Well-Known Member
That was not what I had asked you to prove.
Can you prove that Gehenna, Hades & Tartarus are not used to translate very different places?
Do not limit that request to "Hades is not Gehenna or the lake of fire" when Gehenna cannot only refer to the lake of fire when it can refer to a valley.
Strong's concordance list the use of geena in Mark 9:43 as "of Hebrew origin (1516 and Hinnom 2011); valley of (the son of) Hinnom; ge-henna (or Ge-Hinnom), a valley of Jerusalem, used (figuratively) as a name for the place (or state) of everlasting punishment:--hell."
So because Geheena can represent a valley on earth, should it be removed to not confuse anyone? No. It all goes to defining the word in how it is used in the verse in the context of the message as hell does too.
So the same Jesus that stated will never leave or forsake his own will end of doing just that to some?
We are fully justified and saved the very moment receive Jesus as our Lord and Savior!
My point is that Hades, Gehenna, and Tartarus are very different places. So you ask me to proved they are not used to describe very different places. Good Golly Miss Molly
Hark
Well-Known Member
Since He still abides in former believers ( 2 Timothy 2:12-13 ), then He will abide in all unrepentant saints left behind even though denied entrance to the Marriage Supper in Heaven as the firstfruits of the resurrection.. as vessels unto honor in His House
This is where the vessels unto dishonor come from that are still in His House for not departing from iniquity when the Bridegroom comes. 2 Timothy 2:18-21 That is why former believers & believers living in sin should repent per 2 Corinthians 5:9-11 If there was no eternal punishment of being damned as vessels unto dishonor, then there would be no vessels unto dishonor still in His House just as there would be no least in the kingdom of God per Matthew 5:19.
Hark
Well-Known Member
And yet we are to take heed how we build on that foundation or else per 1 Corinthians 3:10-17 just as the church at Thyatira in revelation was warned to repent or else be cast into the bed of the great tribulation in Revelation 2:18-25
That foundation cannot be removed and our seal of adoption cannot go anywhere BUT if we do not live this reconciled relationship with God thru Jesus Christ, trusting Him as our Good Shepherd to help us lay aside every weight & sin daily to be ready when the Bridegroom comes, then we run the risk of being a castaway as Paul said so in 1 Corinthians 9:24-27
Those castaway are still saved, but denied their first inheritance. The prodigal son may have given up their inheritance for wild living and can never get it back since he would be damned forever as vessels unto dishonor in His House , but he is still in His House because the prodigal son is still son.
Hark
Well-Known Member
Let's go to the original point of your contention since we both have gotten off track here as it will be evident on your part as well..
So if your recent quote is what you are saying now... then why are you making a big deal about hell originally? The same charge for mistranslation can be applied to Gehenna because it can refer to a valley on earth. Should we get rid of all references because it can cause confusion or do we use His wisdom to define the term in how it is used in the verse in context of the message given without being contrary to the rest of scripture?
My position is clear and has not changed from my first to last post. Rather than addressing non-issues, accept that "hell" is used to translate more than one place or concept and thus creates confusion. If the Valley of Hinnom, a place near Jerusalem, is the topic, than use that nomenclature, and where the lost go into eternal punishment use Gehenna, or Gehenna of Fire.
Gehenna never refers to Hades and Hades never refers to Gehenna. The Lake of Fire never refers to Hades, and Hades never refers to the Lake of Fire. But the Lake of Fire and the Gehenna of Fire apparently refer to the same place. Stuff that is said to happen at one of them (Gehenna or Lake of Fire) is also said to happen at the other, i.e. being tossed into them.
Jesus promised to not cast out anyone given to Him, John 6:37. Matthew 5:22 is not addressing those given to Christ, but to Jews that have not entered the Kingdom of Christ.
1) Where do lost people go when they physically die? Hades.
2) Where do the lost people in Hades go? Great White Judgement
3) Where do the lost people go after the Great White Judgement? Lake of Fire.
4) Is the Lake of Fire and the Gehenna of Fire the same place? Probably
The word "Hell" should be removed from scripture as it creates confusion.
Hark
Well-Known Member
It is clearly hypocritical. How you judge the use of hell also has to be applied to Gehenna since it can also mean valley of Hinnon. if you argue that it is defined by how it is used in scripture in the context of the message, then the same is said for the use of hell. .
Regardless of that point; your judgment is that no term can be confused with something else like hell is, and yet Gehenna is also representing something else besides the final judgment. So can readers be confused into thinking the lake of fire is on earth? You seem to believe that can happen with hell. Can you not give pause that it can happen to Gehenna as well?
That depends on your application of John 6:37 because Jesus is casting saved believers for not abiding in Him & His words as His disciples in bearing fruit in John 15:1-8 Jesus is also warning believers in Luke 12:40-49 that He will cut off believes not found ready to be left behind with the unbelievers when He sends that calamity of fire on earth that Peter also warned about in 2 Peter 3:3-12.
Until you address the scripture that clearly testifies to Jesus casting out saved believers for not abiding in Him & yet they are still saved because He still calls them "servant" in Luke 12:47 for why they are still getting greater stripes per the knowledge they had for not being ready & lesser stripes per the lack of knowledge for not being ready, you are applying John 6:37 wrong.
Read Matthew 5:22-26 in the context of the message to see that hell fire is Gehenna as being on the earth.
Matthew 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. 23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee; 24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift. 25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison. 26 Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing. KJV
The one being judged is a saved believer for why "brother" is applied for why we are to settle any known wrongs done to our brothers when it is in our power & opportunity to do so before we give any gift to the Lord.
Now discern with Him about this; there is no coming out of the lake of fire but there is in this prison when it is paid in full. They will be forced to forgive the brother. I apply that to 1 Corinthians 3:10-17 since He will lose nothing of all the Father has given Him per John 6:37-40 therefore any such unforgiveness on that foundation will be burned off even though they will suffer a physical death being left behind but yet their spirit is saved..
So Gehenna can represent a certain time of judgment and another place on earth besides the valley of Hinnon for it can be about that third of the earth prophesied to burn up in Revelation 8:7 whereby unrepentant saved believers that gets left behind shall witness the fiery calamity coming on the earth to burn up one third of the earth per 2 Peter 3:3-12.
1) Where do lost people go when they physically die? Hades.
2) Where do the lost people in Hades go? Great White Judgement
3) Where do the lost people go after the Great White Judgement? Lake of Fire.
4) Is the Lake of Fire and the Gehenna of Fire the same place? Probably
The word "Hell" should be removed from scripture as it creates confusion.
By your judgment, the word Gehenna should be removed from scripture as well, but I disagree with you entirely.
And if this is a blind attack on the KJV, I point out 2 Peter 2:4 in modern Bibles used hell as that holding place before the final judgment which has to be the lake of fire unless you are advocating for ALL Bibles to remove hell from scripture, for which it is still unfounded
37818
Well-Known Member
You are arguing your convoluted interpertations. I do not agree with you for reasons I touched on. Too many twists in your views.
37818
Well-Known Member
Another twist in your views. It is true Gehenna is a name from a place on Earth. But what it refers to is not on Earth by reason that the heaven and Earth are not there, Revelation 20:11, ". . . the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. . . ."
[QUOTE="Hark, post: 2686628, member: 12240" SNIP
By your judgment, the word Gehenna should be removed from scripture as well, but I disagree with you entirely.
[/QUOTE]
Folks, pay no attention to those who misrepresent the views of others, I said the word "hell" should be removed, and replaced by either Hades, or Gehenna, or Tartarus as found in the Greek.
By your judgment, the word Gehenna should be removed from scripture as well, but I disagree with you entirely.
[/QUOTE]
Folks, pay no attention to those who misrepresent the views of others, I said the word "hell" should be removed, and replaced by either Hades, or Gehenna, or Tartarus as found in the Greek.
Hark
Well-Known Member
Then let us address the scriptural reference one at a time by His grace & by His help.
You rightly divide the word of truth with Him in what Paul is talking about here, brother.
What day in 1 Corinthians 3:13 is Paul is referring to that will declare the work of each believer on that foundation? Could he be referring to the rapture event?
Doesn't 1 Corinthians 3:16-17 testify to a physical death when in 1 Corinthians 3:15, the spirit is saved?
1 Corinthians 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. 11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. 16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
How do you apply this message to mean?
Hark
Well-Known Member
Matthew 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. 23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee; 24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift. 25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison. 26 Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing. KJV
How do you apply brother as the adversary in Matthew 5:22-25 to mean? I see it as referring to a fellow believer. Do you?
How do you apply Matthew 5:26 to mean if one is in prison until the debt is paid? I cannot see why there is a mention of coming out if there is no coming out so that is why this Gehenna cannot be the lake of fire but the fiery calamity coming on the earth, thus referring to the danger of being left behind.
Since Gehenna can refer to the valley of Hinnon as being on earth as well as the lake of fire, one can discern with Him that Gehenna as yet to be defined as it is used in Matthew 5:22-26 as referring to that place; that one third of the earth that gets burned up per Revelation 8:7, that will be like Gehenna as the bodies of the dead of the left behind saints of that region will be left unburied per Revelation 18:1-24 as there will be burnings within fallen Babylon. Sounds like Gehenna to me.
Since the left behind unrepentant saints & former believers were not ready, 1 Corinthians 3:10-17 shows how they will be ready & why they will be resurrected after the great tribulation to serve the King of kings on earth, thus their debts are paid & they are coming out of their prison.
Hark
Well-Known Member
Folks, pay no attention to those who misrepresent the views of others, I said the word "hell" should be removed, and replaced by either Hades, or Gehenna, or Tartarus as found in the Greek.[/QUOTE]
Folks, Van had judged why hell should be removed from scripture due to hell having multiple meaning or use BUT Gehenna also has more than one meaning than the lake of fire reference. It can also refer to the valley of Hinnon which is located on earth.
And if you all read post # 116 in this thread as reposted below & discern with Him that Gehenna can also mean a place on earth after the rapture when a third of the earth gets burned up per how you apply Matthew 5:22-26 to mean..
Matthew 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. 23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee; 24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift. 25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison. 26 Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing. KJV
How do you apply brother as the adversary in Matthew 5:22-25 to mean? I see it as referring to a fellow believer. Do you?
How do you apply Matthew 5:26 to mean if one is in prison until the debt is paid? I cannot see why there is a mention of coming out if there is no coming out so that is why this Gehenna cannot be the lake of fire but the fiery calamity coming on the earth, thus referring to the danger of being left behind.
Since Gehenna can refer to the valley of Hinnon as being on earth as well as the lake of fire, one can discern with Him that Gehenna as yet to be defined as it is used in Matthew 5:22-26 as referring to that place; that one third of the earth that gets burned up per Revelation 8:7, that will be like Gehenna as the bodies of the dead of the left behind saints of that region will be left unburied per Revelation 18:1-24 as there will be burnings within fallen Babylon. Sounds like Gehenna to me.
Since the left behind unrepentant saints & former believers were not ready, 1 Corinthians 3:10-17 shows how they will be ready & why they will be resurrected after the great tribulation to serve the King of kings on earth, thus their debts are paid & they are coming out of their prison.
SNIP
Folks, Van had judged why hell should be removed from scripture due to hell having multiple meaning or use BUT Gehenna also has more than one meaning than the lake of fire reference. It can also refer to the valley of Hinnon which is located on earth SNIP
.[/QUOTE]
As I said, when the earthly place is in view, then use "Valley of Hinnom" as the translation choice. When the place of eternal punishment is in view, use Gehenna.
Gehenna and Valley of Hinnom are not "in the clouds" which is the location of the "rapture."
Hark
Well-Known Member
As I said, when the earthly place is in view, then use "Valley of Hinnom" as the translation choice. When the place of eternal punishment is in view, use Gehenna.
Gehenna and Valley of Hinnom are not "in the clouds" which is the location of the "rapture."[/QUOTE]
And when the fiery calamity that burns up one third of the earth is in view that saved but carnal believers & former believes get left behind in, to receive that punishment, use Gehenna for that too because that is what is being referred to in Matthew 5:22-26 when you discern that with Him..
37818
Well-Known Member
I do not think so. See 2 Corinthians 5:10-11.
Under the Law. See Galatians 2:21.
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