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Hell: Traditional or Conditional?

Van

Well-Known Member
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And the drumbeat of misrepresentation continues:

DHK said:
Therefore you are saying God has made his own revelation to mankind of none effect? How does he do that?

Van said:
DHK again returns to misrepresentation, saying I am suggesting God made His revelation to no effect. Here is what I actually said: When Jesus met tradition, He said men had made God's word to no effect.
Note all this time and effort sidetracked from discussion theology, by constant and systemic misrepresentation.

Then ICON chimes in with more false charges against me, sidetracking again discussion of eternal torment.

Eternal torment seems a fiction based on shoddy bible study.
 

Iconoclast

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hey van don't get mad at me I'm just an impartial observer DHK has made mincemeat out of your false ideas and all the other ones have joined in to make your false arguments toast.....I'm just here just to help you see it.....acknowledging you have a problem is the first step to recovery
 

Van

Well-Known Member
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Icon, one of your favorite posts is to misremember something in the unreferenced past and claim victory.

Folks, this is all they have, logical fallacies like attacking the person, i.e. acknowledging YOU have a problem, rather than addressing the questionable view of eternal torment.
 

Van

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I presented the Conditionalist view of Gehenna based on multiple scriptures, including:

a) Our all-powerful God can put an end to both the body and the soul in Gehenna, Matthew 10:28.
b) The fact that the lost will undergo eternal punishment in eternal darkness might mean eternal torment, but also might mean eternal separation from God, Matthew 25:46
c) The fact that the smoke from the torment of the lost will rise forever and ever might mean ongoing torment forever and ever, or simply that the consequence of being tormented in the Lake of Fire is forever, i.e. separation from God, Revelation 14:11.
d) The claim that since Satan and his co-horts will undergo eternal torment requires that humans put in the same place (lake of fire) will undergo the same punishment (eternal torment) is based on assumption. God does treat people differently, i.e. the punishment of some will be more tolerable than for others, Matthew 10:15.
e) Next, Revelation 20:10 is referenced, which is non-germane because it addresses the eternal torment of Satan, the Beast and the False Prophet. No one disagrees.
f) Next, Revelation 20:15 is referenced, which is non-germane because it addresses that all those whose name is not found in the Lamb's book of life are thrown into the lake of fire. No one disagrees.
g) I see I missed at least one NT verse used by some to support eternal torment, Jude 13. Here, rather than reading it as the gloom of the outer darkness is eternal, they read it as those sent to the outer darkness will experience the gloom forever. Of course, I read it the other way. Ditto for 2 Peter 2:17 and Jude 1:7
 
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DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
I presented the Conditionalist view of Gehenna based on multiple scriptures, including:

a) Our all-powerful God can put an end to both the body and the soul in Gehenna, Matthew 10:28.
Already answered.
The "God can" argument is illogical.
God "can" stand on his head and wiggle his toes too. He can do anything he wants to, so says Van. The "God can" argument fails.
God limits himself to his nature, to his word, and has limited himself in other areas as well. This has been explained to you already.
The "God can" view of interpreting scripture according to Van's interpretation is not what the Bible teaches, but this is what you are essentially saying.
"God can do what I say he can do." Arrogant and Preposterous!!
b) The fact that the lost will undergo eternal punishment in eternal darkness might mean eternal torment, but also might mean eternal separation from God, Matthew 25:46
Key word: "might mean."
Our theology is based on "Thus saith the Lord," not on "mights, maybes, and perhaps." If you are so unsure about what you believe you are in deep trouble.
c) The fact that the smoke from the torment of the lost will rise forever and ever might mean ongoing torment forever and ever, or simply that the consequence of being tormented in the Lake of Fire is forever, i.e. separation from God, Revelation 14:11.
Mights and maybes don't cut it. Paul E. Little wrote two books. The first was titled "Know what you Believe," and the second, "Know why you Believe." IOW Know why you believe what you believe. If your beliefs are made up of mights and maybes you don't know why you believe what you believe. You are only considering possibilities.
I stand upon the promises of God's Word. I know what he teaches.
d) The claim that since Satan and his co-horts will undergo eternal torment requires that humans put in the same place (lake of fire) will undergo the same punishment (eternal torment) is based on assumption. God does treat people differently, i.e. the punishment of some will be more tolerable than for others, Matthew 10:15.
You have your facts mixed up? If you are quoting me, I never said that.
Let's consider actual scripture to get the facts straight:

[FONT=&quot]Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.[/FONT]
--Satan was cast into the Lake of Fire. But look who is already there! It is the beast and the false prophet. Who are they? They are people like you and I--the antichrist and the false prophet. They are men. One is a political leader and the other a religious leader. I never said anything about Satan here. There is no annihilation for these people. If not for these people, why not for others? You have no answer here except "God treats people differently. Not good enough.
Do you really think that "God treats people differently" is enough to build an entire doctrine on?? Actually the Bible states: "God is no respecter of persons," so your statement goes against God's Word.
e) Next, Revelation 20:10 is referenced, which is non-germane because it addresses the eternal torment of Satan, the Beast and the False Prophet. No one disagrees.
And therefore it is germane. The beast and the false prophet are no different in their human nature then you are.
f) Next, Revelation 20:15 is referenced, which is non-germane because it addresses that all those whose name is not found in the Lamb's book of life are thrown into the lake of fire. No one disagrees.
If no one disagrees then you should have no problem agreeing that the context of verse 15 is the same with verse 10, "and shall be tormented day and night forever and ever." That defeats your entire argument.
g) I see I missed at least one NT verse used by some to support eternal torment, Jude 13. Here, rather than reading it as the gloom of the outer darkness is eternal, they read it as those sent to the outer darkness will experience the gloom forever. Of course, I read it the other way. Ditto for 2 Peter 2:17 and Jude 1:7
What other way. Eternal is eternal. And they will experience that eternal punishment forever. That is the only way to read that verse. There is nothing good in that verse for the one being punished. I don't know how you can get anything good out of it.

[FONT=&quot]Jude 1:13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.[/FONT]
Forever means for all eternity. It is reserved for them.

(EMTV) raging waves on the sea, casting up the foam of their own shame; wandering stars for whom the darkness of the netherworld has been reserved forever.

(Darby) raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shames; wandering stars, to whom has been reserved the gloom of darkness for eternity.

(ESV) wild waves of the sea, casting up the foam of their own shame; wandering stars, for whom the gloom of utter darkness has been reserved forever.

This gives you an idea what the verse is speaking about. It is also called the netherworld. It is the gloom of darkness. It is forever. It is where they will live or be forever. They will be foaming out their shame during this time.
Darkness and fires of torment will be mixed together. The scriptures do not contradict each other, but the human mind cannot always comprehend the supernatural things that God has created. This perhaps is one of your problems.
 

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Icon, one of your favorite posts is to misremember something in the unreferenced past and claim victory.

Folks, this is all they have, logical fallacies like attacking the person, i.e. acknowledging YOU have a problem, rather than addressing the questionable view of eternal torment.

for you Van;
Chapter 32: Of the Last Judgment

1. God hath appointed a day wherein he will judge the world in righteousness, by Jesus Christ; to whom all power and judgment is given of the Father; in which day, not only the apostate angels shall be judged, but likewise all persons that have lived upon the earth shall appear before the tribunal of Christ, to give an account of their thoughts, words, and deeds, and to receive according to what they have done in the body, whether good or evil. ( Acts 17:31; John 5:22, 27; 1 Corinthians 6:3; Jude 6; 2 Corinthians 5:10; Ecclesiastes 12:14; Matthew 12:36; Romans 14:10, 12; Matthew 25:32-46 )

2. The end of God's appointing this day, is for the manifestation of the glory of his mercy, in the eternal salvation of the elect; and of his justice, in the eternal damnation of the reprobate, who are wicked and disobedient; for then shall the righteous go into everlasting life, and receive that fulness of joy and glory with everlasting rewards, in the presence of the Lord; but the wicked, who know not God, and obey not the gospel of Jesus Christ, shall be cast aside into everlasting torments, and punished with everlasting destruction, from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power. ( Romans 9:22, 23; Matthew 25:21, 34; 2 Timothy 4:8; Matthew 25:46; Mark 9:48; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 )
3. As Christ would have us to be certainly persuaded that there shall be a day of judgment, both to deter all men from sin, and for the greater consolation of the godly in their adversity, so will he have the day unknown to men, that they may shake off all carnal security, and be always watchful, because they know not at what hour the Lord will come, and may ever be prepared to say, Come Lord Jesus; come quickly. Amen. ( 2 Corinthians 5:10, 11; 2 Thessalonians 1:5-7; Mark 13:35-37; Luke 12:35-40; Revelation 22:20 )

aw pink;http://www.reformed.org/eschaton/index.html?mainframe=/eschaton/pink_eternal_punishment.html
Eternal or everlasting is the one and unvaried meaning of aionios in the New Testament. The same word translated "everlasting destruction," "everlasting punishment," "everlasting fire," is rendered "everlasting life" in John 3:16; "the everlasting God" in Romans 16:26; "eternal salvation" in Hebrews 5:9; "His eternal glory" in 1 Peter 5:10. No argument needs to be made to prove that in these passages it is impossible to fairly substitute any other alternative for everlasting and eternal, And it is thus with the other class of passages. The "everlasting fire" will synchronize with the existence of "the everlasting God." The "everlasting punishment" of the lost will continue as long as the "everlasting life" of believers. The "eternal damnation" of the wicked will no more have an end than will the "eternal salvation" of the redeemed. The "everlasting destruction" of unbelievers will prove as interminable as the "everlasting glory" of God. To deny the former is to deny the latter. To affirm the everlastingness of God is to prove the endlessness of the misery of His enemies.
 
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Iconoclast

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JL Dagg....http://founders.org/library/dagg-vol1/bk8c5/

Of what elements future misery will consist, we cannot tell; but it will include poignant remorse, and a sense of divine wrath, with the absence of all enjoyment, and of all hope. It will produce, in the subjects of it, weeping, wailing, and gnashing of teeth. They will realize that they are shut out for ever from the kingdom of heaven, into outer darkness; and they will remember the good things which they once enjoyed, never more to be enjoyed again and the opportunities of mercy, once neglected, never more to return. They will be tormented in the flame, without a drop of water to cool their tongues. Their hatred of God will be complete and they will blaspheme his name, while they feel themselves grasped in the hand of his almighty wrath, without power to extricate themselves. Devils, and wicked men, all under the same condemnation, will be their eternal companions: and the companionship, instead of affording relief, will be an aggravation of their woe. The whole throng, hateful, and hating one another, will be tormentors of one another. The malignant passions, which, on earth, caused wars, assassinations, cruelty, oppression, and every species of injury, will be let loose without restraint to banish peace and brotherhood for ever from the infernal society; and the passions which burn in the hearts of wicked men on earth, and destroy all internal peace, and sometimes drive to suicide, will then be unrestrained, and do their full work of torture; and relief by suicide, or self-annihilation, will be for ever impossible. O, who can endure such torments? Who will not, with every energy, and at every sacrifice, seek to escape from devouring fire and everlasting burnings?

As heaven is a place, so is hell. Judas went to his own place;[24] and the rich man desired that his brethren might not come to this place of torment.[25] In what part of universal space this place is situated, we know not. Heaven is above, and hell beneath; but astronomy has taught us, that, in consequence of the earth’s diurnal rotation, the up and down of absolute space is not to be determined by the position of the little ball which we inhabit, If the third heaven, where God resides, be a region of perfect light and glory, beyond the limits within which stars and planets revolve; and if its inhabitants see the sun and stars, as beneath their feet: the region of outer darkness may be in the opposite extreme of space, where sun and stars shine not, and where the glory of God is for ever unseen. But, wherever it is, the broad way that sinners go, leads to it; and they will at length certainly find it.

The duration of future misery will be eternal. This is expressly declared in Scripture. “These shall go away into everlasting punishment; but the righteous into life eternal.”[26] The words everlasting and eternal are renderings of the same Greek word, which is applied alike to the future state of the righteous and the wicked. The punishment of these, and the happiness, of those, will be of equal duration. Both will be eternal or everlasting. The criticism which would take the word in a different sense, in one case, from that which it is admitted to have in the other, is rash and dangerous. The same truth is taught in other passages of Scripture:- “Where their worm dieth not, and their fire is not quenched.”[27] “The smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever.”[28] “Suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.”[29] The last passage, inasmuch as it refers to the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah, which were destroyed by fire from heaven, may contain an allusion to that fire; but this, viewed in itself, was not eternal fire. It was a type of future wrath, and may be regarded as its beginning, and first outbursting. The fire which consumed the cities of the plain, has long since ceased to burn; but the wrath due to their guilty inhabitants did not then cease to burn: for the day of judgment will find Sodom and Gomorrah,[30] with guilty Chorazin, Bethsaida, and Capernaum, all doomed to suffer, according to their several measures of guilt, the vengeance of eternal fire. These cities, in their fearful overthrow, are set forth as an example; and from the visible beginning of their awful doom, we may faintly conceive what will be the end. But it will be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment, than for those who hear and reject the gospel of Christ; who must, therefore, suffer the vengeance of eternal fire, in its fiercest burnings, and in its everlasting duration.

Future misery will not be purifying in its effect. The afflictions which the righteous endure in this world are fatherly chastisements, inflicted in love, and God designs them for the profit of his children, that they may be partakers of his holiness.[31] Future misery will be inflicted not on the children of God, but on the enemies of God; not in love, but in wrath. And it will not be designed for the profit of its subjects, but for the vindication of the law and justice of God, “to show his wrath and make his power known.”[32] Affliction purifies the righteous, not by any inherent tendency which it possesses, but by the accompanying influence of the Holy Spirit. The wicked, even in the present life, grow hardened under affliction, and sometimes blaspheme God, while they gnaw their tongues with pain.[33] In the world to come, the Holy Spirit will send forth no sanctifying influence to render future torments purifying. Many of the wicked he gives up to hardness of heart, even in the present life; and to all of them the day of grace will be past for ever. The opinion that they will be ultimately restored to the favor of God, and taken to heaven, is not authorized by the Scriptures.[34] On the contrary, it teaches that the Master of the house will “shut the door;” that there is a great gulf[35] between the two worlds rendering passage from one to the other impossible; that the unjust and filthy will remain unjust and filthy still.[36] Jesus said to some, “Ye shall die in your sins; and whither I go ye cannot come:”[37] and he said concerning Judas Iscariot, “It had been good for that man if he had not been born.”[38] The last words cannot be true, if Judas at any future time, however remote, shall be taken to heaven to enjoy for ever the perfect happiness of that world: for the eternal weight of glory which will then be awarded to him, will far more than outweigh all his previous sufferings. The Scriptures teach that the heavens have received Jesus Christ, “until the restitution of all things:”[39] but if his restitution implied a restoration of all to the favor of God, Christ’s second coming would be deferred until its accomplishment. But as Christ will come from heaven to judge the world, and will in

the judgment, condemn the wicked to everlasting punishment, we must conclude that the restitution of all things will be regarded as complete and for ever fixed; when the final judgment shall have decided the eternal state of all, and the order which bad been disturbed by the enemies of God, shall have been fully restored in his kingdom.

Future misery will not be annihilating in its effect. It is called death, the second death: but the first death does not imply annihilation of either soul or body; and neither does the second. It is called destruction: but as the men of Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed[40] in the overthrow of those cities, but are nevertheless to appear in the day of judgment,[41] destruction does not imply annihilation. An immortal spirit suffers destruction when it is separated from God and happiness, and doomed to eternal misery.

So the wicked shall be punished with everlasting destruction, from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power.[42] Besides death and destruction, the word corruption is used as the opposite of life. “They that sow to the flesh, shall of the flesh reap corruption, and they that sow to the Spirit, shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.”[43] Corruption is not annihilation. The death of the body is followed by corruption and the worm; so that we may say to corruption, Thou art my father; and to the worm, Thou art my mother and sister.[44] Hence, corruption, and the worm that dieth not, are figures employed to denote the consequences of the second death. By the flesh, to which men sow, and of which they reap corruption, we do not understand the material body, but the depraved mind. The corruption of this is its moral disorganization, or utter loss of holiness. Were annihilation intended, the worm that dieth not, would cease to have anything on which to feed; and the fire that cannot be quenched, would cease to burn for want of fuel. If the wicked are to be destroyed by instantaneous annihilation, that destruction, instead of being an infliction of torment, will be a termination of all suffering. This does not accord with the Scripture representations of the future portion of the wicked: and no good reason can be assigned for raising the bodies of the wicked, if they are to be immediately annihilated. If destruction is to be a process, whether rapid or lingering, by which annihilation is to be produced, it will not be everlasting destruction, or everlasting punishment; for the process and the punishment will sooner or later cease. To no purpose can it be called eternal punishment, when the subjects of it shall have eternally ceased to exist. To no purpose can any be said to surer the vengeance of eternal fire, when the fire itself shall have eternally terminated their suffering. And to no purpose will the smoke of their torment ascend for ever and ever, when the torments themselves shall have eternally ceased.
 
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Revmitchell

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I do not find anything in scripture that suggests there will be any amount of remorse from those consigned to hell. What scripture does say is there will be weeping, wailing, and gnashing of teeth. The latter characterizes the whole. Those consigned to hell will not be remorseful but instead will be fist in your face angry. They will be so arrogant and angry that they will shake their fist at God and say "Who are you to put me here". The gnashing of teeth shows this very thing.
 

Van

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Folks, the misrepresentations continue unabated. Did I say ""God can do what I say he can do?" Nope, no quote will be forthcoming. I did say God can do what God says He can do, such as in Matthew 10:28.

Next, my view that more than one possible understanding of God's word is possible is disparaged, yet the DHK way or the highway attitude is lifted up. OK

Next, DHK says he knows what God teaches. OK :)

Next, DHK says he did not say since Satan and his cohorts will be tormented eternally, those tossed into the same place will get the same punishment. But here is is:
Those whose names are not written in the Book of Life (verse 15) will have the same fate as those in verse 10 (whose names are also not written in the Book of Life).

Folks, enough said.

The next eternal torment guy says eternal means eternal. Duh. That is not in contention. Does punishment mean torment or confinement, i.e. separation from God? That is the issue and was not addressed. Go figure.

Next, we get destruction means ongoing torment, but in Hebrews 11:28 the killing of the firstborn is in view, where God put an end to their life.

Next, we get yet another effort to redefine "punishment" as torment (misery) but that is not the meaning of the word.

Then we get yet another off the shelf and non-germane argument that those who suffer in Gehenna will not be purified. No one said they would. They will be tormented, and eternally separated from God.

Next we get Plato's view that the human soul is immortal. OK, even though God said He can destroy it. :)

Finally and mercifully the fusillade of fictions comes to a close, with the assertion eternal separation from God cannot be thought of as eternal punishment. OK, but that Sir is your assumption.
 
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Rippon

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Icon had quoted A.W. Pink. Here is just a small excerpt:

"The 'eternal damnation' of the wicked will no more have an end than will the 'eternal salvation' of the redeemed. The 'everlasting destruction' of unbelievers will prove as interminable as the 'everlasting glory' of God. To deny the former is to deny the latter. To affirm the everlastingness of God is to prove the endlessness of the misery of His enemies."
 

Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
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Icon had quoted A.W. Pink. Here is just a small excerpt:

"The 'eternal damnation' of the wicked will no more have an end than will the 'eternal salvation' of the redeemed. The 'everlasting destruction' of unbelievers will prove as interminable as the 'everlasting glory' of God. To deny the former is to deny the latter. To affirm the everlastingness of God is to prove the endlessness of the misery of His enemies."

That is why BOTh Heaven and hell MUST be eternal, as one reflect and shows off His glory in the redemned, while the other shows off His hoiness and justice in the lost...
And each of them are described with same word used to describe an unlimited period of time...
 
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