Hello everyone from a church of Christ guy!

[37818]

. . . question: Are you saved before or after you are baptized?

As to that question it can go either way.
The real question is the work of immersion a requirement in order to be saved? The Baotist position is no. There are three works of faith cited in the word of God, none of which are the requirement in order to be saved. Baptism Mark 16:16, confession that Jesus is Lord, Romans 10:9, and asking for salvation, prayer, Romans 10:13-14. All of them have the requirement in common, faith in Christ.

 

[Alcott]

But ask away!

I would like to ask something that might be useful for tomorrow morning's Bible study. We are studying Revelation,and I think most of us are premillenialists, but not "hard line" in that way such that we don't consider any other position. The position(s) held by CofC members seems to be generally that prophecy is symbolic only-- there will be no disasters as described literally in the book, and Christ will not rule the earth (this same earth) for 1000 years, supposedly from Jerusalem. What is your position? Is it a waste of time trying to tie every prophetic episode to a world event? Were the original 10 nations of the European Union the 10 horns on 7 heads? Is/was Magog, that powerful empire up north, the USSR? Will the Third Temple be built?

If these examples and others are just graspings for meanings, then how actually will the last days be lived and how will the world end? I know the CofC's like to teach that they are the Kingdom of God, as the restoral of the early churches and its practices [although they don't practice 2 or 3 prophets speaking, 2 or 3 tongues speakers, et al, from I Corinthians] and emphasize scriptures such as "The Kingdom of God is within you." I get the idea eschatology is not a subject they like to talk or teach about, relegating it to a different (spiritual?) realm.

 

[Jerome]

Restoration Review

"The Restoration Movement in this country in its origin owes much to both Presbyterians and Baptists. Our original founders, the four pillars of our Movement, were all Presbyterians: Thomas and Alexander Campbell, Barton W. Stone and Walter Scott. But the masses that came into our ranks during the first generation, 1809-1830, were not Presbyterians but Baptists."

"Hundreds of these Baptist churches....gradually imbibed 'Campbellism', as it was called, until they were no longer considered orthodox Baptist churches, and so they were dubbed 'Reformed Baptists'."

"These 'Reformed Baptists' finally lost all identification as Baptists and became known as 'Disciples of Christ', the name preferred by Alexander Campbell, but also as 'Church of Christ' and 'Christian Church'."

 

[ChurchofChristguy]

I would like to ask something that might be useful for tomorrow morning's Bible study. We are studying Revelation,and I think most of us are premillenialists, but not "hard line" in that way such that we don't consider any other position. The position(s) held by CofC members seems to be generally that prophecy is symbolic only-- there will be no disasters as described literally in the book, and Christ will not rule the earth (this same earth) for 1000 years, supposedly from Jerusalem. What is your position? Is it a waste of time trying to tie every prophetic episode to a world event? Were the original 10 nations of the European Union the 10 horns on 7 heads? Is/was Magog, that powerful empire up north, the USSR? Will the Third Temple be built?

If these examples and others are just graspings for meanings, then how actually will the last days be lived and how will the world end? I know the CofC's like to teach that they are the Kingdom of God, as the restoral of the early churches and its practices [although they don't practice 2 or 3 prophets speaking, 2 or 3 tongues speakers, et al, from I Corinthians] and emphasize scriptures such as "The Kingdom of God is within you." I get the idea eschatology is not a subject they like to talk or teach about, relegating it to a different (spiritual?) realm.

My personal position, though it is not shared by every CoC member, is that Revelation is a code book for believers living in that day, surrounding circumstances that were to take place very soon (the fall of Jerusalem) and all of the tribulation that would take place as part of that. I could easily be wrong on this, but I don't see it as any sort of salvation problem no matter what way you view Revelation (and there are dozens). One can get a Cliffs Notes version of the earth's last day by reading 2 Peter 3:3-12.

I do know of folks that are so caught up in "end times" that the real meat of the Gospel is reduced to a purely secondary topic. There is a real danger in worshiping the end times. Jesus cautions us that he doesn't even know the hour of such, and I doubt that he is worried about. And if he isn't worried about, I shouldn't be worried about it.

 

[rsr]

The Restoration Campbell-Stone movement, primarily Campbellite in the South, was a major competitor (along with the Methodists) to Baptists, especially on the frontier.

The Disciples of Christ, as a denomination, has veered to the left wing of establishment Protestantism. I am unable to come up with any cogent explanation of their beliefs.

The Churches of Christ (and the instrumentalist Christian Churches that share their theology) are a different animal. Though Church of Christ Guy would say they are most similar to Southern Baptists, I would disagree, except in externals.

Baptism is by immersion, both agree. But they differ in its meaning. Churches of Christ hold that baptism is essential to salvation. (Although that is not always the case.) Baptists believe it is the response of the individual to what Christ has done for him.

Faith, to Churches of Christ, is essentially an intellectual agreement of the claims of the New Testament about Christ. For Baptists, faith is the personal, internal trust in what Christ has accomplished for us on the cross and through his resurrection.

For most Baptists, and especially for those who were confronted with Campbellism in the first half of the 19th century, perseverance of the saints was a principle doctrine. Alexander Campbell, although originally a Presbyterian, denied this.

All of this is broad brush. Some Churches of Christ, like Max Lucado's Oak Hills Church, have a Baptistic view of baptism and allow instrumental music in some services. Some Churches of Christ believe one must use a single cup in communion. Your mileage may differ.

 

[ChurchofChristguy]

As to that question it can go either way.
The real question is the work of immersion a requirement in order to be saved? The Baotist position is no. There are three works of faith cited in the word of God, none of which are the requirement in order to be saved. Baptism Mark 16:16, confession that Jesus is Lord, Romans 10:9, and asking for salvation, prayer, Romans 10:13-14. All of them have the requirement in common, faith in Christ.

I don't view immersion as a work of man, but rather a gift from God. I don't recall an account of a conversion in the NT without baptism, and I know Jesus was baptized, and I know he told us to go, tell, and baptize immediately before he ascended. Is it "required"? I can't say that because I am not God. Would I feel comfortable being a believer without being symbolically buried and resurrected by immersion? I would not. I suspect most Baptists feel similarly, because every Baptist I know is baptized.

But again, I am not aware of a CofC believer, nor a Baptist believer, who isn't baptized, so it is a moot point for me.

 

[ChurchofChristguy]

The Restoration Campbell-Stone movement, primarily Campbellite in the South, was a major competitor (along with the Methodists) to Baptists, especially on the frontier.

The Disciples of Christ, as a denomination, has veered to the left wing of establishment Protestantism. I am unable to come up with any cogent explanation of their beliefs.

The Churches of Christ (and the instrumentalist Christian Churches that share their theology) are a different animal. Though Church of Christ Guy would say they are most similar to Southern Baptists, I would disagree, except in externals.

Baptism is by immersion, both agree. But they differ in its meaning. Churches of Christ hold that baptism is essential to salvation. (Although that is not always the case.) Baptists believe it is the response of the individual to what Christ has done for him.

Faith, to Churches of Christ, is essentially an intellectual agreement of the claims of the New Testament about Christ. For Baptists, faith is the personal, internal trust in what Christ has accomplished for us on the cross and through his resurrection.

For most Baptists, and especially for those who were confronted with Campbellism in the first half of the 19th century, perseverance of the saints was a principle doctrine. Alexander Campbell, although originally a Presbyterian, denied this.

All of this is broad brush. Some Churches of Christ, like Max Lucado's Oak Hills Church, have a Baptistic view of baptism and allow instrumental music in some services. Some Churches of Christ believe one must use a single cup in communion. Your mileage may differ.

The spectrum of "Churches of Christ" may well be as broad as Baptist churches. I have a friend in eastern TN who is primitive baptist. There are no instruments, there is no paid pastor, the pastor cannot have notes, and one cannot be baptized in a tub - it must be a living body of water. And there's a lot more. So it might be a whole different animal than "your" Baptist church.

I don't know that any of us can fully comprehend the meaning of baptism and what happens there. And I don't see it as any sort of problem if, for example, one person is baptized "for the washing away of my sins" yet another person is baptized "because Jesus told me to do it." Baptism is a sacred thing with many facets, some likely beyond human understanding, that likely cannot be shoe-horned into a single statement of doctrine.

I think your faith assessment of CofC isn't accurate either. Belief is the intellectual agreement part. There is a mountain of historical and archaeological evidence that makes belief a snap - the historicity of Jesus and the apostles, etc. Faith is more that Jesus is who he said he is, and will do what he said he will do. Of course, Jesus is the author and giver of faith. No matter how hard we try, we can't have more faith - it is supplied by Christ.

Only God knows the heart.

 

[37818]

I don't view immersion as a work of man, but rather a gift from God. I don't recall an account of a conversion in the NT without baptism, and I know Jesus was baptized, and I know he told us to go, tell, and baptize immediately before he ascended. Is it "required"? I can't say that because I am not God. Would I feel comfortable being a believer without being symbolically buried and resurrected by immersion? I would not. I suspect most Baptists feel similarly, because every Baptist I know is baptized.

But again, I am not aware of a CofC believer, nor a Baptist believer, who isn't baptized, so it is a moot point for me.

There are those who teach the heresy of faith plus works in order to be saved.
And salvation is the work of God alone, and not do to anything that we do.

 

[robycop3]

I am going to go ahead and toss some things out there that I know have been a point of contention about for a long time.

MUSICAL INSTRUMENTS. Yes, there are those "hard liner" CofC types who claim that there is some sort of biblical justification for acapella music, and I suppose that if you really stretch things, there technically isn't a mention of a musical instrument in the assembly in the NT. Some stick with that. But if you look at CofC history a bit, going back to the Civil War, the lack of pianos/organs in the CofC was more of an economic decision: The south was decimated post war and many of those CoCs simply had no money to buy or replace an expensive instrument.

Later the CoC would split - the Disciples of Christ (DoC) kept the instruments, and the CoC went without. So if you look at the footprint of the DoC and CoC, you find that most DoCs are in the north, most CoCs are in the south. And there are a number of CoCs in the north that do have instruments, and more and more in the south that are adding them.

This isn't a doctrinal issue except for the ignorant and dogmatic. It's really more of a tradition. I am take-it or leave-it on the issue.


COMMUNION. Yes CoCs typically take communion every Sunday, but that's really just following the pattern of the early church. Acts 2:46, "When they came together, they broke bread." Of course, this scripture might or might not be the holy communion, but it's just something CoC follows. But not to the letter: CoC has Wed. night services (and other meetings at the church) where there is no communion. Of course, Jesus said "Do this in remembrance of me," so CoC does it every Sunday. Again, only the most ignorant and dogmatic would claim this to be any sort of deal-breaker for anyone (although I know those types!).


BAPTISM. This is the biggest difference between southern Baptists and Church of Christ. And it boils down to this question: Are you saved before or after you are baptized? Quite honestly, there are strong, well-thought-out lines of thought on BOTH sides of this issue. BOTH denominations place a high priority on baptism. But for the Church of Christ, once you decide you want to become a Christian, it's more of a 5-alarm fire (no pun intended) to get to the water. In the Baptist church, it's all good, wait until baptism Sunday. I don't condemn the Baptists for their line of thinking, because I fully understand it (baptism isn't a work).

But I am personally a bit MORE COMFORTABLE with CofC on the issue, for two reasons: One, the Ethiopian unoch felt an urgency to be baptized immediately. Second, I am not aware of a conversion in the NT without baptism. You just keep bumping into it. Jesus did it, told us to do it, and his last words were "go, tell, and baptize". Are you saved before or after? That's like debating how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. Only God saves. But the water piece is important. Baptists place a very high importance on it, and CofC places a matter of urgent importance on it. I don't see it as a salvation issue either way - I've never personally met a Baptist follower of Christ who wasn't baptized.

Now, what DOES bother me...there is a non-denominational mega church here that is doing GREAT things. But I got a bulletin last year in the mail as to their youth evangelism. It said something like "We had 82 people saved this year in the youth; 13 baptisms." To me, something isn't getting taught there that is very important. If not even 15 percent think immersion is important, that's kind of messed up. I don't like it at all.

There is a misconception that baptism can only be performed by a minister, etc. Not true. I baptized both my son and my daughter and I am just a regular guy. I, myself, got re-baptized 5 years ago in my neighbor's hot tub. Not because I didn't feel I was saved beforehand, but because I was 15 years old when I was first baptized and I did it only for peer pressure - I did not give my life to Christ and there was no sincere pledge of good conscience. I just wanted to fix that.

OK guys take your shots!

Baptism before salvation only produces a wet sinner. The Ethiopian Philip baptized was already saved thru Philip's preaching. While it IS important, sometimes it's impossible. Remember Jesus saving the repentant thief on the cross who couldn't possible be baptized.

 

[ChurchofChristguy]

There are those who teach the heresy of faith plus works in order to be saved.

That begets the question, can you have faith without works? I doubt it. Jesus said that you can know clearly a tree by its fruit. So if we have faith, works spring out from that automatically. Works themselves don't do anything. "All men have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." Isaiah clearly says that even our most righteous acts are like filthy female hygiene rags unto the Lord.

If I claim to have faith in homeowners insurance but fail to buy any and my house gets hailed out, then I really didn't have faith in homeowners insurance. Perhaps I intellectually acknowledged its importance, but I didn't make the "leap of faith" and actually purchase it by mailing in a check.

 

[ChurchofChristguy]

Baptism before salvation only produces a wet sinner. The Ethiopian Philip baptized was already saved thru Philip's preaching. While it IS important, sometimes it's impossible. Remember Jesus saving the repentant thief on the cross who couldn't possible be baptized.

We are wet sinners regardless, before and after.

 

[37818]

. . . can you have faith without works? I doubt it. . . .

Salvation is wholy of God. God is the One who sanctifies men that they might believe. God saves men in order for them to have good works. Men who think they must have faith and works in order to have salvation do not know God. Only those whom God has given eternal life know God. John 17:3; 1 John 4:7-8. 2 Thessalonians 1:8.

 

[ChurchofChristguy]

Salvation is wholy of God. God is the One who sanctifies men that they might believe. God saves men in order for them to have good works. Men who think they must have faith and works in order to have salvation do not know God. Only those whom God has given eternal life know God. John 17:3; 1 John 4:7-8. 2 Thessalonians 1:8.

agreed. But I want to clarify that one must have faith: Eph. 2:8-10 tells us that it is by grace through faith we are saved.

I assume you and I are on the same page on this but just wanted to clarify.

In terms of baptism, I think the that Baptist has assumed that the CofC urgency of baptism then makes it a "work." I have never heard of baptism referred to as any sort of work in the CofC. In fact, to be baptized, one has to actually submit to another (unless you believe in self baptism - another topic). That is yet another sacred thing about baptism: The act of it requires total submission and vulnerability. I have always suspected that this is why so many steadfastly resist being baptized - the concept of submission requires that a man give up his pride and control - which is counter to our nature.

 

[Jerome]

We are probably nearer to Southern Baptists in 2019 than perhaps any other denomination.

Just several years ago, Southern Baptists absorbed your Berean bookstores into the Lifeway Stores chain, now the whole operation is going down the tubes!

 

[ChurchofChristguy]

Just several years ago, Southern Baptists absorbed your Berean bookstores into the Lifeway chain, now the whole operation is going down the tubes!

Yes that sucks! I loved our Lifeway!

 

[Salty]

Just several years ago, Southern Baptists absorbed your Berean bookstores into the Lifeway Stores chain, now the whole operation is going down the tubes!

not really going down the tubes - many brick and mortars are loosing business to the internet. Lifeway will still be around, you will just have to go on the net to order

 

[37818]

agreed. But I want to clarify that one must have faith: Eph. 2:8-10 tells us that it is by grace through faith we are saved.

I assume you and I are on the same page on this but just wanted to clarify.

Yes.

In terms of baptism, I think the that Baptist has assumed that the CofC urgency of baptism then makes it a "work." I have never heard of baptism referred to as any sort of work in the CofC. In fact, to be baptized, one has to actually submit to another (unless you believe in self baptism - another topic). That is yet another sacred thing about baptism: The act of it requires total submission and vulnerability. I have always suspected that this is why so many steadfastly resist being baptized - the concept of submission requires that a man give up his pride and control - which is counter to our nature.

Immersion [baptism] is a work. The few C of C people that I have discused baptism briefly did deny baptism to be a work.

 

[church mouse guy]

Hello everyone! I joined this forum because there is a ton of good healthy dialogue on here. I also want to offer my feedback on anything you’ve wondered about c of c. Since we don’t have a SBC type of governance, my answers may or may not be the same or similar as your church of Christ co-worker or neighbor.

I think there’s a lot of misinformation about my tribe. We are probably nearer to Southern Baptists in 2019 than perhaps any other denomination.

But ask away!

Welcome in!

I probably am the only one here other than you with a Cambellite background, as I came out of the Disciples of Christ decades ago. They have headquarters here in downtown Indianapolis in building of twelve stories more or less. They have gone very liberal, unfortunately. I think that the problem with the Cambellites is that they never developed a doctrinal statement, or a statement of faith and belief as they are called now. They just repeated that where the Bible speaks, they speak, which is confusing if you are trying to sort out what to stand for. By the way, the notorious communist Jim Jones of Peoples Temple had a Peoples Temple in Indianapolis and was an ordained Disciples of Christ minister.

One question, if you don't mind, are you a Young Earth Creationist or do you believe in deep time, millions and millions of years (Old Earth)? I think that most people on the BB are old earthers.

 

[ChurchofChristguy]

Welcome in!

I probably am the only one here other than you with a Cambellite background, as I came out of the Disciples of Christ decades ago. They have headquarters here in downtown Indianapolis in building of twelve stories more or less. They have gone very liberal, unfortunately. I think that the problem with the Cambellites is that they never developed a doctrinal statement, or a statement of faith and belief as they are called now. They just repeated that where the Bible speaks, they speak, which is confusing if you are trying to sort out what to stand for. By the way, the notorious communist Jim Jones of Peoples Temple had a Peoples Temple in Indianapolis and was an ordained Disciples of Christ minister.

One question, if you don't mind, are you a Young Earth Creationist or do you believe in deep time, millions and millions of years (Old Earth)? I think that most people on the BB are old earthers.

Howdy and thank you! Great question! While I certainly think it is possible that the earth is “young”, I tend to be an old earth guy. I don’t view Genesis as a science or history lesson. A library of books would be inadequate to explain the creation process. Genesis is likely a quick synopsis so that we all know who is on first.

 

[Adonia]

Hello everyone! I joined this forum because there is a ton of good healthy dialogue on here. I also want to offer my feedback on anything you’ve wondered about c of c. Since we don’t have a SBC type of governance, my answers may or may not be the same or similar as your church of Christ co-worker or neighbor.

I think there’s a lot of misinformation about my tribe. We are probably nearer to Southern Baptists in 2019 than perhaps any other denomination.

But ask away!

Welcome to the board, I'm one of the Catholics who lurks around here. I knew a COC person, a fellow truck driver whom I gave a ride to his home in South Carolina from New Jersey once. We had a long and interesting conversation about our respective faith traditions and he was indeed a very nice fellow.